date:20050212

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:45:44 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 

[many reasonable comments deleted]

 I was just commenting
 on the Guardians stance and that he disbanded the community rather than obey
 the dictates of a government that fit his criteria as legitimate if heinous.
 


Maybe I misunderstood the example from earlier. I thought the Guardian
had disbanded the community so that he wouldn't be disobeying. If the
Nazis asked him where the German Bahais were, he could have just said
no, I'll never turn them over. and that would have been
disobedience. But if he disbanded the Bahais that means he could
honestly say that the community didn't officially exist.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Just governments...

2005-02-12 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Dear Gilberto,
You wrote: If the Nazis asked him where the German Bahais 
were, he could have just said
no, I'll never turn them over. and that would have been 
disobedience. But if he disbanded the Bahais that means he 
could honestly say that the community didn't officially 
exist.

The Nazis didn't ask the Guardian anything...  The German 
Baha'is sought the Guardian's advice after they were 
approached by the Gestapo.  He then advised the German Baha'is 
to disband.  There was no direct communication between the 
Nazis and Shoghi Effendi regarding Jewish/Baha'is.

Initial post from Rich here: 
http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m44764.html to refresh 
your memory.  Rich just left out some of the detail when he 
referred to the incident a second time.

You've asked before about self-defense.  This would be an 
example of defending fellow believers by the act of 
sacrificing the administrative structure of the Baha'i 
community in Germany for the protection of particular 
members -in that historical context.

lovingly, Sandra

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RE: TV/movies

2005-02-12 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Hi David from Down Under!
Here are a few quotes that may be relevant to your question on 
personal viewing censorship:

Thine eye is My trust, suffer not the dust of vain desires to 
becloud its luster. Thine ear is a sign of My bounty, let not 
the tumult of unseemly motives turn it away from My Word that 
encompasseth all creation. Thine heart is My treasury, allow 
not the treacherous hand of self to rob thee of the pearls 
which I have treasured therein. Thine hand is a symbol of My 
loving-kindness, hinder it not from holding fast unto My 
guarded and hidden Tablets  (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from 
the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 322)

The purpose of the one true God in manifesting Himself is to 
summon all mankind to truthfulness and sincerity, to piety and 
trustworthiness, to resignation and submissiveness to the Will 
of God, to forbearance and kindliness, to uprightness and 
wisdom. His object is to array every man with the mantle of a 
saintly character, and to adorn him with the ornament of holy 
and goodly deeds.
   Say: Have mercy on yourselves and on your fellowmen, and 
suffer not the Cause of God -- a Cause which is immeasurably 
exalted above the inmost essence of sanctity -- to be sullied 
with the stain of your idle fancies, your unseemly and corrupt 
imaginations.  (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of 
Baha'u'llah, p. 299)

The word of God which the Abha Pen hath revealed and 
inscribed on the first leaf of the Most Exalted Paradise is 
this: Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure 
defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the 
world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and 
the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there 
existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and 
guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and 
which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is 
confined to but a few; all have not possessed and do not 
possess it.  (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 63)

Convey the greetings of this Wronged One unto all the beloved 
friends in that region and call to their minds Our wondrous 
and exalted remembrances, that haply they may forsake the 
things current amongst them, may set their hearts on that 
which pertaineth unto God and remain purged from unseemly 
deeds and pursuits. (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 
238)

From time immemorial even unto this day, all the kindreds and 
peoples of the earth have clung to such fanciful and unseemly 
thoughts, and thus have deprived themselves of the clear 
waters streaming from the springs of purity and holiness. 
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 19)

Regarding Jerry Springer... I think this one is appropriate:
We exhort you, O peoples of the world, to observe that which 
will elevate your station. Hold fast to the fear of God and 
firmly adhere to what is right. Verily I say, the tongue is 
for mentioning what is good, defile it not with unseemly talk. 
God hath forgiven what is past. Henceforward everyone should 
utter that which is meet and seemly, and should refrain from 
slander, abuse and whatever causeth sadness in men. Lofty is 
the station of man! (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 
219)

Lovingly,  Sandra

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RE: Just Government` and/or just war

2005-02-12 Thread David Lambert

Iskandar wrote:

Also, I'd think, it's worthwhile for us Baha'is to ponder, reflect, and 
think deeply about the various possible implications of paragraph 88 of 
Baha'u'llah's Most Holy Book Kitab-i-Aqdas.  

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KA/ka-6.html 

***

I thoroughly agree!  As for the passage in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the words are
chillingly familiar.  The Blessed Beauty addressed the monarchs of His time
in the same vein, and what happened to them is well-known.

David


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Re: Just governments...




In a message dated 2/10/2005 10:21:43 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I do not know howeverwhere the fine line is. We sometimes forget how powerful spiritual virtues canbe, how much influence they have on the hearts andsoul of human beings. And that the Bahai faith isessentially and first and foremost in my view, aspiritual path, that aims for spiritualtransformation, 
The fact is that Baha`i's must draw the fine line for themselves. The institutions might give us advice for where to look or not to look, but the line for me is drawn by me. That places responsibility squarely upon me. That is not comfortable, but at least I acknowledge that I am responsible for my actions and Icannot trust others to do it for me and be ethical.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Just governments...

2005-02-12 Thread Rich Ater









  
  
  
  Hitler
was never elected Chancellor; in Germanys
last truly democratic election, he pulled 37% of the vote, which means
that 63%
of voters opted for various other parties.
  

A
government can be legally constituted with 37% or 44% of the vote if
that's a
majority. Look at us south of your border.

  
   
  
  Stalin
then ordered the Communist Party *not*
to form an anti-Nazi alliance with the
Social Democrats (together they could out vote the Nazis.).
  

So the vote got split. As much I dislike our current President I don't
claim the government is illegal because Nader split the vote.

  
   
  
  Thus,
under Weimar
law (and normal parliamentary
practice) Hindenburg had to call on Hitler as the leader of the largest
contingency in the Reichstag to form the government, which he did on
January 8,
1933.
  

He became chancelor because the Nazi's held the majority of seats in
the Reichstag and he was the only one who could pull it off. You
yourself said this was all legal under the Weimar Laws.

  
   
  
  Hitler
them proceeded to take over *illegally.*
The Nazis set the Reichstag
Fire (Feb. 27, 1933), blamed it on the Communists and got Hindenburg to
give
Hitler emergency governing powers with which he intimidated his
political
enemies.
  



  
  He
then had another election
and got 44% (still not 50% even at this point) of the vote, used the
Brown
Shirts to prevent socialists and communists who had been elected from
taking
their seats and pressured the other parties to pass the Enabling Laws
that gave him absolute dictatorial power.
  

He already had the government, so it was legally constituted. That the
fact that he started breaking laws after this to shore up his power
doesn't change that.

 





  
  This
doesnt look duly elected
to me. Nor just.
  

Not to me either, but my definition of just and duly elected are a
little diferrent. I have no love for the Nazis. Two uncles of mine were
executed by them in Thessalonika for being in the underground and I'm
damned proud of them. I was just commenting on the Guardians stance and
that he disbanded the community rather than obey the dictates of a
government that fit his criteria as legitimate if heinous.

I hope you and your family are doing well. I still recall our last
meeting fondly.

Rich

  
   
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
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Happy New Year

2005-02-12 Thread Rich Ater

Gilberto,
   Sorry this is late. Yesterday was the 1st of Muharram. Happy New Year!
Rich
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Re: Happy New Year

2005-02-12 Thread Firouz Anaraki

Dear Rich,
1st and 2nd of Muharram are very important for Baha'is too. Birthday of the 
Bab is on 1st of Muharram and the Birthday of Baha'u'llah on 2nd of Muharram 
based on lunar calendar. Baha'is in whole Middle East celebrate these 2 days 
which are accounted as one in the sight of God. Happy Twin Birthdays.

regards,
Firouz

Gilberto,
   Sorry this is late. Yesterday was the 1st of Muharram. Happy New Year!
Rich

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Re: Just governments...




In a message dated 2/11/2005 9:46:34 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
A government can be legally constituted with 37% or 44% of the vote if that's a majority. Look at us south of your border.
Wrong terms! A majority is more than 50%. A PLURALITY is the most votes received even if it is less than 50%. In the United States there have been a number of presidents elected to office without a majority of popular vote - Harry Truman comes immediately to mind.
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Re: Just governments...




In a message dated 2/12/2005 1:54:35 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Maybe I misunderstood the example from earlier. I thought the Guardianhad disbanded the community so that he wouldn't be disobeying. If theNazis asked him where the German Bahais were, he could have just said"no, I'll never turn them over." and that would have beendisobedience. But if he disbanded the Bahais that means he couldhonestly say that the community didn't officially exist.PeaceGilberto
It would have been HIS disobedience for which the German Baha`i's of Jewish heritage would have suffered rather than he. I don't think anyone would find that an ethical solution.

Regards,

Scott
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TV/movies

2005-02-12 Thread David Friedman

I've often wondered what might be considered okay and not okay to watch as a 
Baha'i as far as TV and movies go.  There is a lot of sex and violence in TV 
and movies.  I have two parents with quite opposing views of what is okay 
and what isn't.  One is very conservative and doesn't like me going to M 
rated movies (the majority of movies that come out are this rating or 
above).  I have doubts whether this attitude is right, but maybe I'm in the 
wrong.  Applying the statement about music in the Aqdas to TV and movies 
would seem to indicate a lot of TV and movies aren't okay for Baha'is to 
watch.  Is it okay to watch shows where the characters have poor morals, and 
often cheat in relationships?  Is it okay to watch the Jerry Springer show?  
What guidance do the Writings have on this?

Regards,
David
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Theres never been a better time to get Xtra JetStream @  
http://xtra.co.nz/jetstream

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Re: Just governments...

2005-02-12 Thread Don Calkins

At 23:26 -0500 2/11/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 2/11/2005 9:46:34 PM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

A government can be legally constituted with 37% or 44% of the vote 
if that's a majority. Look at us south of your border.

Wrong terms! A majority is more than 50%. A PLURALITY is the most 
votes received even if it is less than 50%. In the United States 
there have been a number of presidents elected to office without a 
majority of popular vote - Harry Truman comes immediately to mind.
What about 1824?
Andrew Jackson rcvd 43 per cent of the popular vote and 99 electoral 
votes; but since that was not 50 per cent of the electoral college, 
it was thrown into House of Representatives.  John Quincy Adams had 
rcvd 30 per cent of the vote and 84 ballots, William Crawford - 13 
per cent of the vote and 43 ballots, Henry Clay - 13 per cent of the 
vote and 37 ballots.  Clay threw his support to Adams, who became 
president with the votes of 13 of the 24 states.

Think of the uproar that would cause now!
Since then, the following American Presidents have failed to receive 
50 per cent of the popular vote -
Polk - 1844
Taylor 1848
Buchanan - 1856
Lincoln - 1860
Hayes - 1876
Garfield 1880
Cleveland - 1884
Harrison 1888
Cleveland 1892
Wilson - 1912/1916
Truman 1948
Kennedy - 1960
Nixon - 1968
Clinton - 1992/1996
Bush 2000

Don C
--
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
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Re: TV/movies

David,

At 10:32 PM 2/11/2005, you wrote:
I've often wondered what might be considered okay and not okay to watch as a 
Baha'i as far as TV and movies go.  There is a lot of sex and violence in TV 
and movies.  I have two parents with quite opposing views of what is okay and 
what isn't.

I think that a person should simply make her or his own judgment. I have seen a 
lot of what some Christians call legalism among Baha'is on this subject. All 
of it puts a great deal of faith in the views of the reviewers. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. -- Abbott Abbie Hoffman 


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RE: TV/movies

2005-02-12 Thread David Lambert

David Friedman wrote:

I've often wondered what might be considered okay and not okay to watch as a

Baha'i as far as TV and movies go...

***

This is an intriguing question.  Personally, I very rarely watch TV. Just
lately I've spent a few evenings watching network programs, and I must say
that it lived down to my expectations.  It's hard not to agree with those
who've said there's a conspiracy afoot to make Americans stupid and immoral.

I prefer reading, and it's stood me in good stead.  I am only a high school
graduate, but I've never stopped educating myself.  I've taught myself how
to use computers, delved into historical eras that interest me, read the
Bible cover-to-cover a number of times, learned to fix my car, and any
number of other worthwhile things that I wouldn't have learned or
experienced if I'd spent my evenings in front of the television.

I think that if what you are watching causes you to raise this question,
that's a good indication that it may not be real healthy.  There's no need
to be prissy, but ask yourself what the program is saying to you.  How
prurient is it?  Does it uplift or does it simply titillate?  I don't think
any hard-edged answers are really possible, but there's a voice inside that
lets you know how appropriate things are.  The hard part is listening to it.

Dave Lambert


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Re: Just governments...

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:30:04 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dear Gilberto,
 
 You wrote: If the Nazis asked him where the German Bahais
 were, he could have just said
 no, I'll never turn them over. and that would have been
 disobedience. But if he disbanded the Bahais that means he
 could honestly say that the community didn't officially
 exist.
 
 The Nazis didn't ask the Guardian anything...  The German
 Baha'is sought the Guardian's advice after they were
 approached by the Gestapo.  He then advised the German Baha'is
 to disband.  There was no direct communication between the
 Nazis and Shoghi Effendi regarding Jewish/Baha'is.


Ok, thanks for the clarification.

Peace

Gilberto

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Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:51:04 -0800, Richard H. Gravelly
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Can anyone give an explanation as to why Yusuf Ali has translated whatever
 Arabic words Sale and Rodwell translated as unjust violence as trespasses
 against truth and reason.

I'm not sure. I guess I would chalk it up to the idea that the Quran
can't really be translated. Every attempt is approximate and there
are shades of meaning which are missed by some translations but gotten
by other translators. And vice versa.

Sale and Rodwell use iniquity, and unjust violence while the Muslim
translators render the phrase as :

[every kind of] sinning, and unjustified envy
vice and sedition without any right to do so
sins and trespasses against truth or reason
sin and wrongful oppression
sin and rebellion without justice
sins (of all kinds), unrighteous oppression

Peace

Gilberto




Here are the contexts:

Muhammad Asad renders the verse:

(33) Say: Verily, my Sustainer has forbidden only shameful deeds, be
they open or secret, and [every kind of] sinning, and unjustified
envy, and the ascribing of divinity to aught beside Him - since He has
never bestowed any warrant therefor from on highand the attributing
unto God of aught of which you have no knowledge.

TB Irving gives:
* SAY: My Lord has only forbidden shocking deeds whether they are
flagrant or kept hidden; and vice and sedition without any right to do
so; and that you should associate anything with God for which He has
not sent down any authority; and that you should say something you do
not know concerning God.


007.033 
YUSUFALI: Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are:
shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against
truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath
given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no
knowledge.

PICKTHAL: Say: My Lord forbiddeth only indecencies, such of them as
are apparent and such as are within, and sin and wrongful oppression,
and that ye associate with Allah that for which no warrant hath been
revealed, and that ye tell concerning Allah that which ye know not.

SHAKIR: Say: My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them
that are apparent as well as those that are concealed, and sin and
rebellion without justice, and that you associate with Allah that for
which He has not sent down any authority, and that you say against
Allah what you do not know.

Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D.
Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan 
33. Say (O Muhammad SAW): (But) the things that my Lord has indeed
forbidden are AlFawâhish (great evil sins, every kind of unlawful
sexual intercourse, etc.) whether committed openly or secretly, sins
(of all kinds), unrighteous oppression, joining partners (in worship)
with Allâh for which He has given no authority, and saying things
about Allâh of which you have no knowledge.


 
 33. Say: The things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds,
 whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason;
 assigning of partners to Allah, for which he hath given no authority; and
 saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge. (The Qur'an (Yusuf
 Ali tr), Surah   7)
 
 33.  Say, verily my Lord hath firbidden filthy actions, both that which is
 discovered thereof, and that which is concealed, and also iniquity, and
 unjust violence; and hath forbidden you to associated with God that
 concerning which he hath sent you down no authority, or to speak of God that
 whch ye know not.  Sale trans. Sura 7
 
 33.Say: Truly my Lord hath forbidden filthy actions whether open or
 secret, and iniquity, and unjust violence, and to associate with God that
 for
 which He hath sent down no warranty, and to speak of God that ye know not.
 (The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura   7 - Al Araf)
 
-- 




pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush

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Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

My apologies for having misspelled your name Gilberto.  I do have one 
specific concern about Yusuf Ali's translation.  It appears that he uses 
reason as a standard.  How does a Muslim understand reason?

Richard. 


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Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

Hi, folks,

A reminder that the threat comparing Islamic and Baha'i perspectives has, at 
least for the time being, been ended by the list managers.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. -- Abbott Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

Oops! Hopefully not a Freudian slip this time. ;-)

A reminder that the threat comparing Islamic and Baha'i perspectives has, at 
least for the time being, been ended by the list managers.

thread, not threat

With regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. -- Abbott Abbie Hoffman  


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Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

Thank you for the notice.  I was not previously aware.
Neither Sale nor Rodwell were Baha'is.  I was not seeking to make a 
comparison between Baha'i and Muslim perspectives.

Richard.
- Original Message - 
From: Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

Hi, folks,
A reminder that the threat comparing Islamic and Baha'i perspectives has, at 
least for the time being, been ended by the list managers.

With regards, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net . [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. -- Abbott Abbie Hoffman
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Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

Perhaps it was not Freudian.  It was, nevertheless, a telling slip.
Richard.
- Original Message - 
From: Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

Oops! Hopefully not a Freudian slip this time. ;-)
A reminder that the threat comparing Islamic and Baha'i perspectives has, 
at least for the time being, been ended by the list managers.

thread, not threat
With regards, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net . [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. -- Abbott Abbie Hoffman
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Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

Hi, Richard,

At 12:43 PM 2/12/2005, you wrote:
Neither Sale nor Rodwell were Baha'is.  I was not seeking to make a 
comparison between Baha'i and Muslim perspectives.

Yes. I was just reminding all the list members about the decision. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. -- Abbott Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 10:31:02 -0800, Richard H. Gravelly
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 My apologies for having misspelled your name Gilberto.  I do have one
 specific concern about Yusuf Ali's translation.  It appears that he uses
 reason as a standard.  How does a Muslim understand reason?

I don't have the Arabic in front of me but I would think that the
original word is haqq which includes the various shades of meaning
which the different translations hit upon, plus some others: truth,
reason, justice, reality, right.

Peace

Gilberto
-- 
pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush

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Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

Thank you.  I do appreciate the warning.
Richard.
- Original Message - 
From: Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Sura VII Al Araf v. 33

Hi, Richard,
At 12:43 PM 2/12/2005, you wrote:
Neither Sale nor Rodwell were Baha'is.  I was not seeking to make a 
comparison between Baha'i and Muslim perspectives.
Yes. I was just reminding all the list members about the decision.
With regards, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net . [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. -- Abbott Abbie Hoffman
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RE: Just governments...

2005-02-12 Thread Ian Kluge

Dear Rich,

I, too, remember our meeting fondly and
likewise hope that this finds you and your family well.

Let me add as a prefatory note that Im
sure some people are wondering about why we are discussing this in such detail
on Bahai Studies. However, I think it is important to get all this straight to
help us understand the decisions made by Shoghi Effendi as well as the conduct
of Bahais in the Third Reich.

Im sorry for not communicating
clearly. Let me try and clarify what I meant to say.

I did not say, or mean to imply that the
Nazi government was not duly constituted because (a) Hitler only
got 37% of the vote in Germanys
last free election, or because of (b) Stalins

refusal to have the Communists join an
anti-Nazi coalition which could have prevented Hitler from coming to power. We
too have minority governments in Canada indeed, have one
right now and it is quite duly constituted. (BTW, doesnt
Bush have a majority?)

What specifically makes Hitlers
government not duly constituted is the fraudulent election of
March 5, 1933. Just prior to March 5 Hitler set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27,
1933 as an excuse to suppress the Social Democrats and Communists during the
election. Moreover, he had no legitimate authority to ban all political demonstrations
except by the Nazis or to use the SA to intimidate and arrest members of rival
parties. Nor, of course, did he have authority to set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27,
1933)!

You write:

He already had the
government, so it was legally constituted. That the fact that he started
breaking laws after this to shore up his power doesn't change that.

Ian:

Its more complicated than that.

Hitler took power *legally* in January 30, 1933, but took
power *illegally* with election he
called (Feb. 1, 1933) for March 5, 1933.

The election itself was not duly constituted
(as shown previously) nor was the post-election Reichstag since Social
Democrats and Communists were forcibly and illegally prevented from taking
their seats. The government was also not duly constituted because it used
strong-arm tactics to force other smaller parties to approve giving Hitler the Enabling
Laws. These laws existed in the Weimar Constitution but were not
legitimately obtained by Hitler.

Thus, I think the claim that the Nazis
government after (and even starting with) the March 5, 1933 election was not duly
constituted.

In a variety of ways, the Nazis met the
Guardians criteria for not being duly constituted and he
acted wisely in disbanding the German NSA instead of co-operating with them.
Defying Hitler in this way entailed considerable but unavoidable - risk
for German Bahais.

Id be curious to know how many of the
men went into the German Wehrmacht, which was the one place a person could be
beyond the reach of the Gestapo, the SA or the SS.

Best wishes,

Ian Kluge

Thus, under Weimar
law (and normal parliamentary practice) Hindenburg had to call on Hitler as the
leader of the largest contingency in the Reichstag to form the government, which
he did on January 8, 1933.

He became chancelor because the Nazi's held the
majority of seats in the Reichstag and he was the only one who could pull it
off. You yourself said this was all legal under the Weimar Laws.

Hitler them proceeded to take over *illegally.* The Nazis set the Reichstag Fire (Feb. 27,
1933), blamed it on the Communists and got Hindenburg to give Hitler emergency
governing powers with which he intimidated his political enemies.

He then had another election and got 44% (still not
50% even at this point) of the vote, used the Brown Shirts to prevent
socialists and communists who had been elected from taking their seats and
pressured the other parties to pass the Enabling Laws that gave
him absolute dictatorial power.

He already had the government, so it was legally
constituted. That the fact that he started breaking laws after this to shore up
his power doesn't change that.

This doesnt look duly elected to me. Nor just.

Not to me either, but my definition of just and duly
elected are a little diferrent. I have no love for the Nazis. Two uncles of
mine were executed by them in Thessalonika for being in the underground and I'm
damned proud of them. I was just commenting on the Guardians stance and that he
disbanded the community rather than obey the dictates of a government that fit
his criteria as legitimate if heinous.

I hope you and your family are doing well. I still recall our last meeting
fondly.

Rich

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Martyrdom of Imam Husayn

2005-02-12 Thread JS

Today is the 3rd of Muharram 1426 of the Islam calendar. In seven days, or the 10th of Muharram, the anniversary of the martyrdom of the Imam Husayn will be observed. As you all know, Bahá'u'lláhrevealed a Tablet of Visitation in honor ofthe Imam Husayn. In memory of the Imam Husaynand his martyrdom, I've pasted the tablet below. It is a very powerful tablet thatclearly demonstrates that the Authors of the Bahá'í Revelation confirmed our acceptance ofhis essence. Itshowsour reverence for the Imam, who sacrificed his life to purify humanity.

Revealed by Bahá'u'lláh:

This is a Tablet of Visitation revealed from the Supreme Horizon by My All-Glorious Pen in honour of His Holiness, the Prince of Martyrs, Husayn, the son of Alí, may the spirit of all else but Him be a sacrifice unto Him!
He is the Comforter, the Consoler,the Lord of Utterance, the All-Knowing!

God testifieth that there is no God but Him! And He that hath appeared is the One promised in all the Books and sacred Scrolls, the One remembered in the hearts of all those near unto God and the sincere ones. Through Him, the Tree of utterance hath raised its call in the kingdom of divine recognition saying:
O Concourse of all Faiths! I swear by the All Merciful! The days of sorrow have come upon Us, inasmuch as in these days there hath befallen the Dawning-place of Gods proof and the Dayspring of His evidence that which hath caused the lamentations of those resident beneath the canopy of glory in the all highest paradise to be raised. It hath caused wailing in the tabernacle of grace in the supreme heaven.
God testifieth that there is no God but He, and He that hath appeared is the Preserved Treasure, the hidden mystery through whom all the secrets of what hath been and what will be are divulged. This is the Day whereon the verse revealed in the past hath found its consummation and fulfillment in the verse, "The Day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the Throne above the exalted Seat." This is the day whereon the banners of idle fancy and vain imaginings have been subverted and the command, We are from God and unto Him shall we return hath gone forth. This is the Day whereon the "Great Announcement" which all the Prophets and Messengers had heralded hath appeared. In this Day, those near unto God have hastened to the sealed choice wine and have drunk of it in the name of God, the Omnipotent, the Help in Peril, and the Self-Subsistent. On this Day too, the cry of weeping and tears is raised from every side and the tongue of utterance speaketh: Sorrow !
belongeth
to the Friends of God and His chosen ones; tribulation befitteth the lovers of God and His trusted ones; sadness and affliction becometh the Manifestations of God, the Possessor of all things, whether of the past or the future.
O denizens of the city of names and O countenances residing in the chambers of the all-highest paradise! O companions of faithfulness in the kingdom of eternity! Change ye your glad white and red garments unto black clothes of mourning, for the supreme calamity and the greatest loss hath come to pass, because of which, the Messenger of God hath wailed and lamented and the heart of Fátimih hath melted. Thereupon, the dwellers of the Abhá Tabernacle and those sailing upon the Crimson Ark, seated upon seats of love and loyalty, wept with a great weeping.
Ah! Ah! How I lament My sorrows caused by an injustice that hath set afire the realities of all beings; how I grieve over that which hath befallen the Sovereign of the Visible and Invisible at the hands of those who have violated Gods Covenant and Testament and have denied His proof, repudiated His grace and disputed with His signs!
Ah! Ah! May the spirits of the Concourse on High be a sacrifice unto the calamity Thou didst bear, O Thou who art the Son of the Sadratul-Muntahá and the Mystery enshrined in the Most Exalted Word! O would that the command of Creation and Its Return hath not been made manifest, for thus eyes would not have witnessed Thy Body prostrate and wounded on the dust! Because of Thy calamity, the ocean of utterance is prevented from billowing forth its waves of wisdom and knowledge and the breezes of God have been stilled. Because of Thy sorrow, all traces of joy have vanished, the fruits of the tree have fallen down, the wailing of the righteous hath risen to high heaven, and the tears of the pious have flowed in profusion.
Ah! Ah! O Prince of Martyrs and their Sovereign, their Glory and their Well beloved! I testify that through Thee, the daystar of detachment hath shone forth over the firmament of creation and through Thee, the temples of the near ones were adorned with the ornament of righteousness. Through Thee, the light of divine recognition hath shone forth in the world of creation. Were it not for Thee, the command to knit and join together "B" and "E" would not have gone forth and the sealed "choice wine" would not have been unsealed. But for Thee, the Dove of

Re: Just governments...




In a message dated 2/12/2005 4:04:00 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Id be curious to know how many of the men went into the German Wehrmacht, which was the one place a person could be beyond the reach of the Gestapo, the SA or the SS. 
Well, it was not entirely a safe place for those judged untermenschen. The SA came to an end during the night of the long knives.
Also known as the Reichsmordwoche (The Blood Purge), took place over the night and early morning of SUnday July 1st, 1934. The Sturm Abteilung came to an abrupt end that night, parts of it were re-absorbed into the SS or the Wehrmacht.

Other than that little discrepancy, I agree with your analysis completely.

Regards,

Scott
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RE: Just governments...

2005-02-12 Thread Ian Kluge









Dear Scott, 



Reichsmordwoche (!!!)
Wow  I havent heard that term for years  i.e. since the
death of my father who lived in Berlin
at the time as a lawyer. You realise, of course, that it was a sarcastic term
and implied criticism of the Fuehrer and the SS and using it in the wrong
circumstances get a person a little trip to jail or concentration
camp. 



Of course, we must recall that it occurred
over a year after Hitler seized power (die Machtubernahme) in March, 1933. It
emphasises the illegal nature of the regime  and also the ruthlessness
with which Hitler suppressed all opposition. 



A lot of political opponents to the Reich
joined the Wehrmacht to be safe from Gestapo and SS in what was called the
inner emigration, i.e. emigration within the nation (die innere
Emigration) as distinct from emigration to abroad. Service as medics would have
been acceptable to Bahais. 



To be clear: the SA (Sturmabteiling) per
se did not end in the Night of the Long Knives. Lutze was its next leader. What
ended was the SA as the Nazis left, i.e. truly socialist wing, those,
who like Roehm were not merely intense nationalists but also genuine socialists.




Best wishes, 



Ian Kluge 















From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005
3:54 PM
To: Baha'i
 Studies
Subject: Re: Just governments...









In a message dated 2/12/2005 4:04:00 PM Central Standard
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:





Id be curious to know how many of the men went into
the German Wehrmacht, which was the one place a person could be beyond the
reach of the Gestapo, the SA or the SS. 







Well, it was not entirely a safe place for those judged
untermenschen. The SA came to an end during the night of the long knives.





Also known as the Reichsmordwoche (The Blood Purge), took
place over the night and early morning of SUnday July 1st, 1934. The Sturm
Abteilung came to an abrupt end that night, parts of it were re-absorbed into
the SS or the Wehrmacht.











Other than that little discrepancy, I agree with your
analysis completely.











Regards,











Scott



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Re: Martyrdom of Imam Husayn

I'm not objecting to the direction the conversation is taking but I'm
curious what the limits are in terms of this new (temporary?) guidline
restricting the subject matter?

Peace

Gilberto



-- 
pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush

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Re: Martyrdom of Imam Husayn

2005-02-12 Thread JS

Hi,

Just to clarify, I am not engaging in, or attempting to engage in, a Muslim-Baha'i dialogue. Baha'u'llah wrote a Tablet of Visitation for Imam Husayn, to be read on the commemoration of his martyrdom. This Tablet is part of the Baha'i Holy Text.

With regards.
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm not objecting to the direction the conversation is taking but I'mcurious what the limits are in terms of this new (temporary?) guidlinerestricting the subject matter?PeaceGilberto-- "pharaoh is just a leaf on a burning bush"__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.eduWeb - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.netNew Public -
 http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
		Do you Yahoo!? 
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'

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Re: Martyrdom of Imam Husayn

Gilberto,

At 08:33 PM 2/12/2005, you wrote:
I'm not objecting to the direction the conversation is taking but I'm curious 
what the limits are in terms of this new (temporary?) guidline restricting 
the subject matter?

A lot of people complained to Susan and I over the lengthy and often repetitive 
discussions comparing Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Some of those complaints were 
posted to the list. Many were sent to us privately.

Since you did not give an example, I am not sure how to respond specifically to 
your question. However, my own view is that, at least for the time being, we 
should stay clear of that area for now. In other words, I would rather that we 
did not delve into any kinds of comparisons between Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  http://markfoster.net  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. -- Abbott Abbie Hoffman 


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[Spam:50%] The Knowledge that Eliminates Fear

2005-02-12 Thread Firouz Anaraki




Dear FriendsAny thoughts on the following two quotations would be much 
appreciated. 
regards, Firouz


"In the treasuries of the knowledge of God there lieth concealed a 
knowledge which, when applied, will largely, though not wholly, eliminate 
fear. This knowledge, however, should be taught from childhood, as 
it will greatly aid in its elimination. Whatever decreaseth fear 
increaseth courage. Should the Will of God assist Us, there would flow 
out from the Pen of the Divine Expounder a lengthy exposition of that 
which hath been mentioned, and there would be revealed, in the field of arts 
and sciences, what would renew the world and the nations. A word hath, 
likewise, been written down and recorded by the Pen of the Most High in 
the Crimson Book which is capable of fully disclosing that force which is 
hid in men, nay of redoubling its potency. We implore God--exalted and 
glorified be He--to graciously assist His servants to do that which is 
pleasing and acceptable unto Him."Baha'u'llah 
EPISTLE TO THE SON OF THE WOLF pp 32

"Unfortunately it would seem that the knowledge `which could largely 
eliminate fear' has not been disclosed or identified by Baha'u'llah, so we 
do not know what it is." DIRECTIVES FROM THE GUARDIAN no. 
46

"And if he feareth not God, God will make him to fear allthings; 
whereas all things fear him who feareth 
God."Baha'u'llah THE SEVEN VALLEYS 
pp 58

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Re: Just governments...




In a message dated 2/12/2005 6:47:44 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

To be clear: the SA (Sturmabteiling) per se did not end in the Night of the Long Knives. Lutze was its next leader. What ended was the SA as the Nazis left, i.e. truly socialist wing, those, who like Roehm were not merely intense nationalists but also genuine socialists. 
Hitler's betrayal of Roehm after he had guaranteed him amnesty to return and run the brownshirt wing of the party was the sure and certain proof that Hitler's ambitions left no room for loyalty to others. It was of course, the price tag the Junkers and the army placed on their cooperation - an end to Roehm's threat to the sanctity of the Prussian leadership.

Regards,

Scott
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Re: Martyrdom of Imam Husayn