Can you give me examples?
I must say that I am allergic to putting labels on people. I hate having put a label on myself, and so think that others would not like that either. I think that there is far more to people than what we may see. And in the west we are so fond of classifying that we
Janine,
At 06:49 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
Can you give me examples?
I would rather not get that specific.
Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie Hoffman
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Ok. That is a pity though, cause I do not know what you mean. You could write it to me privately.
janine "Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Janine,At 06:49 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:Can you give me examples?I would rather not get that specific. Regards, Mark A. Foster
,
That's possible, but in cities like Constantinople at the time of
Baha'u'llah a simple act of arson could have catastrophic consequences. As I
recall much of the city burnt one year.
warmest, Susan
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of this punishment is, at least in part, relatedto and intended to be a deterrent to acts such as the wholesale genocidalburning of homes villages
Dear Patti,
That's possible, but in cities like Constantinople at the time of Baha'u'llah a simple act of arson could have catastrophic consequences. As I
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 17:57:57 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 05:19 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
I guess one of the things which makes me say what I said, especially with
regard to prophets is the notion of sinlessness.
However, sinlessness by what standard? Moses
In a message dated 1/24/2005 8:35:53 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Mark I did not accept Baha'u'llah based on His character. In fact, I knew next to nothing about Him when I became a Baha'i in 1970. For whatever *reason*, my heart responded to His claim, and I recognized
Gilberto,
At 08:33 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
Personally I don't see the above issues as requiring or suggesting
relativism. In the case of Moses one could argue that the death was in
self-defense. The issue of Muhammad and Aishah might be addressed by pointing
out that marrying a young woman,
Iskandar,
why could Aishah not marry again?
much love,
janine"Iskandar Hai, M.D." [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote: Gilberto: Personally I don't see the above issues as requiring or suggesting relativism. In the case of Moses one could argue that the death
In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:25:05 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dear Patti,
That's possible, but in cities like Constantinople at the time of Baha'u'llah a simple act of arson could have catastrophic consequences. As I recall much of the city burnt one year
In a message dated 1/24/2005 9:11:47 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
why could Aishah not marry again?
Dear John,
In the Islamic (and Baha'i) context it is unheard of for someone who was
married to prophet to ever marry someone else. That's why Shoghi
In a message dated 1/24/2005 9:24:02 P.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
We also have the example of the Hammurabi Code's
punishments.
Dear Scott,
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
warmest, Susan
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arson in Constantinople.
Scott
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On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:09:27 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think this is descending to petty quibbles.
Ok. Let's stop.
Peace
Gilberto
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To
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:50:55 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 08:33 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
Personally I don't see the above issues as requiring or suggesting
relativism. In the case of Moses one could argue that the death was in
self-defense. The issue of
I'd say a child of around 7 or 9 lunar years of age is a more accurate
term than young woman when she marries a person 50 years older than her.
She is what she is whether she is married or not.
She was barely 18 when she became a widow, and could not marry again
hmm... maybe you are right... though I find it difficult to imagine, seeing how much has changed here in Europe in 100 years time, and my optimism for the future of the world. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:28:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In the Quran it says:
33.6] The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have
on themselves, and his wives are (as) their mothers; and the
possessors of relationship have the better claim in the ordinance of
Allah to inheritance, one with respect to another, than (other)
believers,
In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:21:38 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
that
each new Manifestation, because of the taxonomies He uses defines anew what
goodness is?
Dear Janine,
Isn't that what this passage implies?
"O leaders of religion! Weigh not the Book of
In a message dated 1/24/2005 7:18:25 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Only the
Bahai faithis steeped in the practice of
consultation.
Dear Janine,
The Baha'i concept of consultation is derived from Islam.
warmest, Susan
In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:32:15 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And since honest-to-goodness real live Muslim actually do believe thatthe Quran is applicable today then you are actually calling Islam asbased in the Quran "brutal".
If the Shariah is enforced in a way to
In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:32:15 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I don't believe that the actual nature of what is "brutal" depends onwhat date it is. It may depend on the actual realities of a givensituation but those don't just depend abstractly on the date.
In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:45:25 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Personally, I think that it is possible to outline certain featureswhich constitute a "good government" but this should be independentfrom a particular ideology.
Which is, of course, a product of western
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:49:19 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G: Umm... given that prostitution is actually legal in most of the west
(so people are actually quite happy to pay money to have it) how
exactly is that whole fining process a deterrent?
JS: Doubling is the key word
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:45:11 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:32:15 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And since honest-to-goodness real live Muslim actually do believe that
the Quran is applicable today then you are actually
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:49:37 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:45:25 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Personally, I think that it is possible to outline
certain features
which constitute a good government but this should be
In a message dated 1/23/2005 12:11:24 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:But then the larger question is whether the present-day conscience" isactually a perfectly reliable guide? Can we even reliably determinewhat "the conscience" is saying to us? I mean, if everyone
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:22:43 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/23/2005 12:11:24 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:
But then the larger question is whether the present-day conscience is
actually a perfectly reliable guide? Can we
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:49:19 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: G: Umm... given that prostitution is actually legal in most of the west (so people are actually quite happy to pay money to have it) how exactly is that whole fining process a
In a message dated 1/23/2005 2:23:42 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What's the question?
That's the answer "pop" is one thing and "society" is another.
Regards,
Scott
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On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:08:27 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 12:10 PM 1/23/2005, you wrote:
My present-day conscience tells me that burning people alive is brutal. I
also think in the West there are many present-day consciences who would
have problems with the
In a message dated 1/23/2005 4:04:38 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I honestly don't understand what you mean. As an individual it seemslike you can have your own sense of right and wrong which might bedifferent from those of people around you. But I don't know what youmean
Gilberto,
At 03:47 PM 1/23/2005, you wrote:
So does that mean that conscience isn't thought of as some sort of
internalized sense of right and wrong?
To my understanding, the conscience is a person's internalization of socially
constructed moral codes.
However, there is, in addition, what
Susan wrote:
This is what the Universal House of Justice wrote me on the subject of
conscience:
...not only the right but also the responsibility of
each believer to explore truth for himself or herself are fundamental to
the Baha'i teachings...A Baha'i recognizes that one aspect of his
IT'S TIME FOR THE GUY WHO WORKS AT A JAIL TO WEIGH IN :-). Actually,
you're both right. In forensics we discuss the sociopathic triangle;
fire setting, cruelty to animals, and bed wetting. All three turn up in
many serial killers.
Rich
Susan Maneck wrote:
It seems that sociopaths manifest
Scott:
Trying to enforce the cutting off of a man's hand for theft
becomes a
problem when the rest of the world society perceives it to
be brutal - for
one instance.
Gilberto:
But on what grounds is it brutal?
It's inhumane; lacking in compassion, sympathy, or
consideration for a fellow human
Gilberto: My present-day conscience tells me that burning
people alive is brutal. I also think in the West there are
many present-day consciences who would have problems with the
Bahai rules about women, homosexuality, pre-publication
review, and the separation of church-and-state.
So where does
My understanding based on K73 of Kitab-i-Aqdas is that capital punishment is
not to be exercised in a Baha'i State.
... Let none contend with another, and let no soul slay
another; this, verily, is that which was forbidden you in
a Book that hath lain concealed within the Tabernacle
of glory.
IMO, the problem with discussions of this sort is that they assume there is
something called goodness apart from the taxonomies provided by the Prophet
in each Dispensation.
Regards, Mark A. Foster http://markfoster.net [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger. Abbie
Someone on another list remarked that according to science there is a link between commiting arson and being sociopath. It seems that sociopaths manifest their affliction first by an inclination to burn down buildings.
much love,
janine van rooij
dublin, ireland.
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo
Someone on another list remarked that according to science there is a link between commiting arson and being sociopath. It seems that sociopaths manifest their affliction first by an inclination to burn down buildings.
much love,
janine van rooij
dublin, ireland.
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all
Speaking of arson... I sent this several days ago... but
haven't seen it on the list.
- Original Message -
From: Sandra Chamberlain
To: BAHA'I STUDIES
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Arson
Gilberto, you stated: Also, since being burned alive is
the punishment for arson
Janine,
At 04:48 AM 1/22/2005, you wrote:
Someone on another list remarked that according to science there is a link
between commiting arson and being sociopath.
A sociopath is more a popular than a technical term.
However, IMO, the problem with that person's statement is that it may be true
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:50:25 -0900, Sandra Chamberlain
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Speaking of arson... I sent this several days ago... but
haven't seen it on the list.
- Original Message -
From: Sandra Chamberlain
To: BAHA'I STUDIES
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject
to accuse the Islamic punishments of being brutal and inhumane issomething which is difficult if not impossible for a Bahai to do withintegrity.
No game of Simon says. The Aqdas allows death for the crime of arson, but it also says imprisonment is acceptable, that the case and its punishment have
Islamic. There is room for improvement.
And even if the Bahai writings didn't say what they did about
punishments for arson, how can you believe the Quran comes from God
and at the same time call it brutal?
My people are hydroponic
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You
In a message dated 1/22/2005 11:58:21 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And even if the Bahai writings didn't say what they did aboutpunishments for arson, how can you believe the Quran comes from Godand at the same time call it brutal?
I agree that it is specious to say &qu
In a message dated 1/22/2005 12:09:24 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Alot of the Islamic penalties can be mitigated as well. They aren'tapplied in a vacum. There are all sorts of exceptions, andrequirements and its a basic principle that you want to avoid applyingsevere
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:09:09 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
JS: But Gilberto, none of the Laws of the Aqdas are enforced except a few
related to prayer, marriage, burial, alcohol, opium, and a few others.
G: I don't see why that would be a relevant distinction. To make the
JS: I didn't say it has anything to do with whether or not we have a country. The House of Justice still has the right to decide when to implement the law of burning the arsonist, it at all. I don't think it ever will be.G: Why would the punishment be in the book if it wasn't ever supposed
in a search of the word *arson*. However, I did find the
quote from Baha'u'llah that you apparently refered to. There
were other posts on this subject in 2003 and 2004.
Perhaps you or Mark could direct me to the *subject* heading
so I can look for his response ? Often when there are so many
the Quran up on its offer and
actually practiced polygamy. So the question remains, why would the
Bahai laws mention the possibility of such a harsh punishment for
arson if it was never meant to be implemented?
G: They fall short.
JS: Do you think it is possible to have a 'truly Islamic' nation
for the
most extreme of cases. As the House said in a letter on this subject of the
punishment for arson (and not all arson -- only burning a house), there is a
difference in gravity between a person who burns down an empty warehouse, and a
person who burns down a schoolhouse full of children
remains, why would the
Bahai laws mention the possibility of such a harsh punishment for
arson if it was never meant to be implemented?
JS: I think that the Muslim jury is still out on whether polygamy is
allowed or not.
Gilberto:
I'm actually surprised at your statement. I think
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 02:16:47 -, Brent Poirier
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Similarly, adultery between a married man and a married woman was punishable
by death by stoning. God desired to emphasize how importance the purity of
the marital relationship was. In the Aqdas, however, it is
In a message dated 1/22/2005 10:16:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Do the Bahai writings actually say that thepunishments found in the Quran are inhumane for the present day? Or isthat something you are just saying?
The Baha`i Writings say that the social laws change from
G: What criteria are you ultimately using to determine whether somethingis "humane""? Are you basically just going by popular opinion? Orsomething else? Do the Bahai writings actually say that thepunishments found in the Quran are inhumane for the present day? Or isthat something you are just
G: Umm... given that prostitution is actually legal in most of the west(so people are actually quite happy to pay money to have it) howexactly is that whole fining process a deterrent?JS: Doubling is the key word here. If the fine for adultery is $100, it will be $200 the 2nd time, $400 3rd
penalty for murder and arson, with
the alternative of life imprisonment (see note 87).
In His Tablets Abdu'l-Baha explains the difference between revenge and
punishment. He affirms that individuals do not have the right to take revenge,
that revenge is despised in the eyes of God
In a message dated 1/22/2005 11:49:38 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
G: Umm... given that prostitution is actually legal in most of the west(so people are actually quite happy to pay money to have it) howexactly is that whole fining process a deterrent?JS: Doubling is the
According to Baha'u'llah, an arsonist can be either burned alive or
sentenced to life in prison.
It seems that the harshness of this punishment is, at least in part, related
to and intended to be a deterrent to acts such as the wholesale genocidal
burning of homes villages that we've been seeing
Gilberto, you stated: Also, since being burned alive is
the punishment for arson in the
Bahai faith, I'm not sure on what grounds you are objecting to
the above.
Would you please provide your source for this statement - Book
and page from Baha'i Sacred Scripture ?
Thank you!
Sandra
Sandra,
Here is the quotation:
Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn;
should anyone deliberately take another's life, him also shall ye put to
death.
-- Baha'u'llah, Aqdas: Notes, p.203
With regards, Mark A. Foster 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
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