OK. First I have to admit I did not read the enormous number of posts the original email elicited. Having said that and at the risk of saying exactly what someone else has already illustrated, I will boil it down to options and reasons.
1. Fire him. After two months he probably isn't going to get a whole lot faster. First, nobody is going to be as fast as you. Maybe a 2/3 as fast if you are lucky. Of course you have to try and find someone better. But, if you think you can do better... A good friend once told me nobody ever fired somebody and said "Man...I wish I would have done that six months later" It is always, "I should have fired that guy a year ago". Not sure this situation fits that but think about a year from now and things are exactly as they are now. What do you do? 2. Keep him. Understand he is slow that drives me and you crazy but customers like him and from what you said he does a good job. Those two things are not easy to find. Maybe find a pay scheme that can work that to encourage a faster performance or at least not cost you as much if he is slow. Pay him piece meal work for every install completed. That way if he only does one a day it still costs you what you think an install is worth. There is a decent value in an installer you don't have to follow around all the time. On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:35 PM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote: > I dont think is lazier by default, just coddled. Nobody is allowed to hold > them accountable for anything so they never learn. Theyre taught that their > feelings matter, when they actually dont, not to the degree theyre led to > believe at least. Those with good work ethics have brought our capabilities > up so high that these who would normally have been culled by mother nature > naturally are allowed to survive and ultimately taint the gene pool. > > On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: > >> I am a Boomer. When I was young, the lazy kids were called hippies or >> beatniks or potheads. >> I was a farm kid and my dad hired hippies that were Vietnam vets. >> Learned a bunch from them. >> They were hard workers. >> >> Not sure when Gen X started. But we had the “me” generation that was all >> about me and not you. >> Punk rockers were something I seem to recall with seemingly odd hair and >> clothes. >> >> Later (I think or perhaps before) we had preppies that could not be >> counted on to get their hands dirty. >> At some point we had Millennials. >> And now we have Millennial snowflakes that melt at harsh words or unkind >> thoughts or ideas they don’t like. >> >> Is it just different names or are the actually youth getting physically >> lazier? >> >> *From:* Adam Moffett >> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 10:44 AM >> *To:* af@afmug.com >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process. >> >> I'm 37. So I'm a grumpy old man only in spirit. >> >> In a younger group of employees, we can identify some who are going to be >> successful, and we can see some who are going to end up living with Mom. >> We'll be mistaken about some of them in each category, but by and large I >> think you'll know what I mean. >> >> In the older group of employees, the ones who couldn't hack it have *already >> *moved back in with Mom. Or they've gone to jail or they found a way to >> collect a check. In which case the state is "Mom"; same thing only >> different. The 30+ year old employees will look better as a group because >> fewer non-hackers are standing next to them. >> >> People have been complaining about the next generation for so long that >> by now we should have descended into a Mad Max movie. Instead we keep >> progressing. There could *also* be a cultural shift towards laziness....or >> a cultural shift towards productivity. It can't be measured just by >> looking at the group of twenty somethings in front of you. >> >> >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net> >> To: af@afmug.com >> Sent: 4/24/2017 11:54:50 AM >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process. >> >> >> Not really ageism, merely an observation. I consider myself young even >> at 33, so I’m speaking as ‘youth’, and I can tell you a majority of young >> kids, aged 18 to upper 20’s, don’t want to do anything, and want more money >> for less work, if they could get paid to sit at home, they would. Sure, >> one could make the argument the older generation has that group also, I can >> attest to that, as I have a few of those employees also. But I was simply >> speaking from a majority of what the employment pool has today. I can >> assure you, at least in Central Illinois, there are more people that don’t >> want to work in the ‘youth’ demographic, than people that want to earn >> their pay. >> >> And I personally, just my opinion, believe it is a cultural thing. I’m >> not looking down on anyone by saying that, just stating that the modern >> generation has been taught that there are more shortcuts than there are >> challenges to face and build character. I’ve also seen it with my own eyes >> as I have 4 young children. The things they teach kids now, and the way >> they teach them, is way different than what I was raised to know, and even >> more disconnected from our fathers and their fathers before them. Every >> generation will have the youthful ones, but I think the current youthful >> generation is being raised in a world where they are taught everyone gets a >> trophy or nobody does, and that hurts the employer, because you no longer >> have people competing for position and pride, instead you have groups of >> folks getting together saying, hey, Dan makes $15, we ALL should make >> $15.... but Dan does more..... Yeah, but Dan is my equal because we share >> the same title, and therefor should share the same pay..... but Dan has >> also been here for 5 years, you just started....... I don’t care, Dan and I >> work right next to each other, and I deserve the same benefits he has.... >> guarantee that argument has been had by many business owners lately with at >> least one employee. Not trying to start a long drawn out debate about the >> youth or culture, just giving an example of what I’ve personally seen in >> our area. >> >> Thank you, >> Ben Royer, Operations Manager >> Royell Communications, Inc. >> 217-965-3699 <(217)%20965-3699> www.royell.net >> >> *From:* Adam Moffett >> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 10:36 AM >> *To:* af@afmug.com >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process. >> >> ....I'm gonna drift a bit now: >> >> I take issue with the ageism. There's a tendency to look down on the >> next generation and say they're all lazy bums. You can find columns from >> the 40's describing the young people as lazy and immoral. I know I've seen >> one from the 1890's decrying the horrible tendencies of "today's" youth >> drinking, getting pregnant, and having no desire to work. Apparently every >> generation for at least a hundred years has thought the ones coming after >> them were stupid and lazy. >> >> Young people have things to learn, but feel that they don't. They make >> poor choices. It's all part of learning. It's not a problem with a >> particular generation, and it's not a cultural shift towards laziness. >> It's the young being youthful. >> >> I'm not saying sloth should be forgiven, I'm just saying you have to >> teach/show them. Maybe tell them to get the lead out, and see whether they >> do it or tell you fuck off. If they tell you to fuck off and you fire >> them, then you've taught them a valuable lesson about consequences....or >> they don't learn and move back into momma's house. If they do it, then >> they've learned something else. Maybe they've learned that the boss is a >> jerk, or maybe they've learned that expectations are higher than they >> thought but they have what it takes to meet them. Maybe they learn both. >> >> I, on the other hand, emerged from my mother's womb as a fully formed >> grumpy old man. So I know nothing of poor choices. >> >> >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net> >> To: af@afmug.com >> Sent: 4/24/2017 11:17:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process. >> >> >> It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different cultures. I >> was raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the former, not >> the current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense. It’s about having a >> sense of pride for yourself and your work. I can definitely see the >> division amongst my team though, as I have young and old, from all >> different backgrounds. I have a team of 6 installers, with an 7th that is >> my senior employee that I’ve recently transitioned to ‘Lead Tech’. He’s a >> bit of a facilitator, someone I can rely on to train new hires, audit >> installs, fix major issues, etc. I’ve dealt with most issues mentioned, >> I’ve got the guys that fly through jobs, can do 7 a day, but the quality >> lacks. Then I’ve got the guys that might take 4 or 5 hours, but their >> installs are impeccable. The main reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ role, >> was to find a happy medium to all the different methods, so that at the end >> of the day, the customer is satisfied for many years to come. I think >> that’s my major takeaway, is regardless of how long it takes, aside from >> obvious economics, as long as the job is a quality job and the customer is >> satisfied, it’s a job well done. >> >> As far as training new hires. We have always done that through osmosis. >> We spend the first few days in the classroom, giving a basic orientation of >> who we are, and what are system is like. I give some RF training, so they >> understand it’s not magic, it’s not a laser, there is science behind the >> actual physical structure of RF. Then I pair them up with a senior tech, >> now the Lead Tech, and send them on their way. They spend the first 30-60 >> days of their 90 days with that tech, learning efficient ways to install, >> and slowly taking on tasks as the Lead tech assigns. Eventually, working >> into a role of doing the whole job while the Lead follows. During this >> time frame we have break out sessions as needed. Early on I do a break out >> session on tower safety, and we do follow up meetings with them and the >> Lead tech to see how they are progressing, and I tweak their training as >> needed to address concerns or short comings. Usually, by 40 days or so, >> they are ready to do jobs, but no later than 60 days, and then we turn them >> lose to try it on their own. You will always have call ins for help, >> expect that, and they will be slow on their own at first, but I find the >> key is empowering them to make decisions. Most of my slower guys are slow >> because they second, or triple, guess their work, instead of just making a >> decision and moving on. I had one guy that was told to test 5 different >> tours by dispatch to ‘find a signal’, he thought that meant test all of >> them, even though he found a signal on the first one he tested, so I had to >> explain the goal is to get a signal, period, it’s inefficient to test all >> towers, Dispatch was just telling you that you have 5 options. >> >> If you have an employee that is just too slow and not catching on, it’s >> time to let them go, I’ve had to do that also. Some people just are not >> cut out for this type of work, as it is a unique job of physical labor, >> mixed with a level of intelligence when it comes to the technical side of >> things. Military guys are GREAT installer hires, some of my best employees >> are former military. Everything can be trained, but hiring someone that >> has the will power and determination to work hard, and is respectful, is a >> huge advantage to that process. I didn’t really see where you discussed >> the exact findings that was causing your employee to be slow, but I’m sure >> once you start to identify them, focusing some attention on those areas >> will quickly teach you on if they can adapt, or need to be let go. >> >> Thank you, >> Ben Royer, Operations Manager >> Royell Communications, Inc. >> 217-965-3699 <(217)%20965-3699> www.royell.net >> >> *From:* Chuck McCown >> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 9:31 AM >> *To:* af@afmug.com >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process. >> >> Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast. Do things >> perfectly in the least amount of time possible. That means hustle. Why >> would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house? >> There is absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth. Not >> saying to sprint or full on run. Just jog, show some hustle. Economy of >> movements. That includes tool and supply organization. >> >> At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day. If >> you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you, >> probably give you a raise. >> >> But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing instead >> of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time... >> >> *From:* Josh Reynolds >> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM >> *To:* af@afmug.com >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process. >> >> To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well. >> >> Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing leads >> to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause >> you to end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as >> they get paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks >> bad and often has problems you will have to roll a truck for. >> >> Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted >> efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work. >> >> "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast." >> >> In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy. >> >> - Josh >> >> On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: >> >> Well then you would not be working for me. Or UPS or FedEX or Les Schwab >> or Tunex or ...... >> >> Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating them >> like an adult. You own their work output when they are on the clock and >> they need to work efficiently. >> >> It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle. I don’t pay anyone >> to take their time. >> >> *From:* Timothy Steele >> *Sent:* Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM >> *To:* af@afmug.com >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process. >> >> >> If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to start >> looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told me >> to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it >> >> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: >> >>> You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until they >>> decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare. >>> >>> I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they have to >>> do at least 3 per day to keep their job. Once they are doing 3, then up it >>> to 4 or keep them on piece rate. >>> >>> Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck to >>> house? Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a >>> bit of drill sergeant treatment. >>> >>> I believe in “management by telling” you actually have to tell them, in >>> simple and clear terms exactly what you want. >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Brandon Yuchasz >>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM >>> *To:* af@afmug.com >>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] installer hire / training process. >>> >>> I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did anyway >>> sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying to >>> teach / train a new installer to work faster? >>> >>> >>> >>> We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with other >>> duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good >>> understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he >>> is very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to do. >>> >>> >>> >>> I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure out >>> where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys >>> ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the >>> survey. Install here, wire down here, across here in through wall here and >>> terminate. You could see the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning >>> the radio was a breeze. >>> >>> >>> >>> I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I >>> considered a hard install. The second one easy. They took him over 10 >>> hours not counting drive time. >>> >>> >>> >>> I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the customers >>> permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and not a >>> single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer >>> with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 >>> hours for each install. So had I but we are both experienced. >>> >>> >>> >>> So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster and >>> then took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the >>> entire install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install >>> router. I left the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but >>> told him to not physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had >>> questions to ask because the other guy is there to help him figure out a >>> faster process and would be talking with me after the install about ways >>> to speed up the process so we can help him. I should mention the >>> experienced guy is a supervisor so no hard feelings should be had here. I >>> left him at 9:00 >>> >>> >>> >>> I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time frames on >>> installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock out >>> three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when >>> I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove >>> a half hour to what I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done >>> at 12:30 and driving back to check on the new guy. When I got there he was >>> just about done with the install but the truck was spread around the >>> driveway ( not throwing stones I have been known to do this). So he was >>> going past hour 4 at this point with paperwork and packing the truck he was >>> going to be at 5 for sure. I stepped in did the paperwork and quietly >>> asked the other guy to pack up the truck some. This was done for selfish >>> reasons ( its Friday and I have a family) and also because we had a >>> between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install of the day. >>> >>> >>> >>> Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the last job. >>> >>> >>> >>> I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together a lot >>> 100s of installs together. So on the way to the install which he had never >>> seen I prep him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the back of the >>> house. Take the little giant around to the deck so I can access the roof. >>> And it’s a tripod install. So when we pull into the drive I point to the >>> back of the house “that’s the back” he says okay and I go to ring the >>> doorbell and say hello. He has the new guy with him so he told him to help >>> with the ladder and then instructed him to start an rj45 on a wire. When I >>> walked out the ladder was up and the supervisor was at the top screwing >>> down the tripod. I grabbed the mast, mounted the antenna and put the >>> wireless unit on it to tune and scurried up the small ladder and up the >>> roof. Ill make this short. We hung the gear and tuned and marked the tripod >>> and I went down and he had just finished the RJ45. In his defense he had >>> put one on a 3 foot scrap piece that he had confused with the rest of the >>> wire in the box( I don’t know) so this was his second end. Anyway we just >>> ran the job and he stayed out of the way. This was a hard roof, tall and >>> not LOS and we were done in the truck heading home in just under two hours. >>> But that was two guys and we ran. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ok so this is getting long sorry about that but I just am at a loss with >>> this guy. I did realize on that last job I run on job sites. I always run >>> to the truck back from the truck and I think ahead. This guy defiantly does >>> not run and nothing is done with any sense of urgency. He is certainly >>> smart and I hate to let him go because he has other values but I don’t know >>> what I can do to help him. He was hired to take the load off of me and I >>> realize at the beginning new guys are work but its been over two months now >>> he just recently took on jobs alone and he is not taking the load off. He >>> is adding to it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> >>> >>> Is to wrong to say, your slow I don’t know why but I am going to fire >>> you if you don’t get fast. I wish I could tell you how to get fast but Its >>> lots of little things. Start with running everywhere you go and see if that >>> helps? >>> >>> >>> >>> Seriously…. I do want to know from those of you that have hired lots of >>> guys what are your thoughts? Should I not be running one man crews with the >>> expectation of two installs in an 8 hour day with an hour of drive time in >>> there? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brandon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >
