I will raise you...and call you....on your debate....
1) I don't want to fire my guy, he is well trained, has been doing it about 5
years and yes, from time to time we have issues but for the most part he does
his job well. Some of his time is not accounted for, that is a problem.
2) Lets say I did fire him. How much downtime is required to find someone new
to replace him? Ewww.
We really do need to find another tech to work the area (and we have tried), it
is not easy.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lewis Bergman
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
OK. First I have to admit I did not read the enormous number of posts the
original email elicited. Having said that and at the risk of saying exactly
what someone else has already illustrated, I will boil it down to options and
reasons.
1. Fire him. After two months he probably isn't going to get a whole lot
faster. First, nobody is going to be as fast as you. Maybe a 2/3 as fast if you
are lucky. Of course you have to try and find someone better. But, if you think
you can do better... A good friend once told me nobody ever fired somebody and
said "Man...I wish I would have done that six months later" It is always, "I
should have fired that guy a year ago". Not sure this situation fits that but
think about a year from now and things are exactly as they are now. What do you
do?
2. Keep him. Understand he is slow that drives me and you crazy but customers
like him and from what you said he does a good job. Those two things are not
easy to find. Maybe find a pay scheme that can work that to encourage a faster
performance or at least not cost you as much if he is slow. Pay him piece meal
work for every install completed. That way if he only does one a day it still
costs you what you think an install is worth. There is a decent value in an
installer you don't have to follow around all the time.
On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:35 PM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
I dont think is lazier by default, just coddled. Nobody is allowed to hold
them accountable for anything so they never learn. Theyre taught that their
feelings matter, when they actually dont, not to the degree theyre led to
believe at least. Those with good work ethics have brought our capabilities up
so high that these who would normally have been culled by mother nature
naturally are allowed to survive and ultimately taint the gene pool.
On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
I am a Boomer. When I was young, the lazy kids were called hippies or
beatniks or potheads.
I was a farm kid and my dad hired hippies that were Vietnam vets.
Learned a bunch from them.
They were hard workers.
Not sure when Gen X started. But we had the “me” generation that was all
about me and not you.
Punk rockers were something I seem to recall with seemingly odd hair and
clothes.
Later (I think or perhaps before) we had preppies that could not be
counted on to get their hands dirty.
At some point we had Millennials.
And now we have Millennial snowflakes that melt at harsh words or unkind
thoughts or ideas they don’t like.
Is it just different names or are the actually youth getting physically
lazier?
From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:44 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I'm 37. So I'm a grumpy old man only in spirit.
In a younger group of employees, we can identify some who are going to be
successful, and we can see some who are going to end up living with Mom. We'll
be mistaken about some of them in each category, but by and large I think
you'll know what I mean.
In the older group of employees, the ones who couldn't hack it have
already moved back in with Mom. Or they've gone to jail or they found a way to
collect a check. In which case the state is "Mom"; same thing only different.
The 30+ year old employees will look better as a group because fewer
non-hackers are standing next to them.
People have been complaining about the next generation for so long that
by now we should have descended into a Mad Max movie. Instead we keep
progressing. There could *also* be a cultural shift towards laziness....or a
cultural shift towards productivity. It can't be measured just by looking at
the group of twenty somethings in front of you.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/24/2017 11:54:50 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not really ageism, merely an observation. I consider myself young even
at 33, so I’m speaking as ‘youth’, and I can tell you a majority of young kids,
aged 18 to upper 20’s, don’t want to do anything, and want more money for less
work, if they could get paid to sit at home, they would. Sure, one could make
the argument the older generation has that group also, I can attest to that, as
I have a few of those employees also. But I was simply speaking from a
majority of what the employment pool has today. I can assure you, at least in
Central Illinois, there are more people that don’t want to work in the ‘youth’
demographic, than people that want to earn their pay.
And I personally, just my opinion, believe it is a cultural thing. I’m
not looking down on anyone by saying that, just stating that the modern
generation has been taught that there are more shortcuts than there are
challenges to face and build character. I’ve also seen it with my own eyes as
I have 4 young children. The things they teach kids now, and the way they
teach them, is way different than what I was raised to know, and even more
disconnected from our fathers and their fathers before them. Every generation
will have the youthful ones, but I think the current youthful generation is
being raised in a world where they are taught everyone gets a trophy or nobody
does, and that hurts the employer, because you no longer have people competing
for position and pride, instead you have groups of folks getting together
saying, hey, Dan makes $15, we ALL should make $15.... but Dan does more.....
Yeah, but Dan is my equal because we share the same title, and therefor should
share the same pay..... but Dan has also been here for 5 years, you just
started....... I don’t care, Dan and I work right next to each other, and I
deserve the same benefits he has.... guarantee that argument has been had by
many business owners lately with at least one employee. Not trying to start a
long drawn out debate about the youth or culture, just giving an example of
what I’ve personally seen in our area.
Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 www.royell.net
From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 10:36 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
....I'm gonna drift a bit now:
I take issue with the ageism. There's a tendency to look down on the
next generation and say they're all lazy bums. You can find columns from the
40's describing the young people as lazy and immoral. I know I've seen one
from the 1890's decrying the horrible tendencies of "today's" youth drinking,
getting pregnant, and having no desire to work. Apparently every generation
for at least a hundred years has thought the ones coming after them were stupid
and lazy.
Young people have things to learn, but feel that they don't. They make
poor choices. It's all part of learning. It's not a problem with a particular
generation, and it's not a cultural shift towards laziness. It's the young
being youthful.
I'm not saying sloth should be forgiven, I'm just saying you have to
teach/show them. Maybe tell them to get the lead out, and see whether they do
it or tell you fuck off. If they tell you to fuck off and you fire them, then
you've taught them a valuable lesson about consequences....or they don't learn
and move back into momma's house. If they do it, then they've learned
something else. Maybe they've learned that the boss is a jerk, or maybe
they've learned that expectations are higher than they thought but they have
what it takes to meet them. Maybe they learn both.
I, on the other hand, emerged from my mother's womb as a fully formed
grumpy old man. So I know nothing of poor choices.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Ben Royer" <operati...@royell.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 4/24/2017 11:17:13 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
It’s interesting reading responses, definitely two different
cultures. I was raised in the midst of both really, luckily I stuck to the
former, not the current, and therefor to me hustle makes sense. It’s about
having a sense of pride for yourself and your work. I can definitely see the
division amongst my team though, as I have young and old, from all different
backgrounds. I have a team of 6 installers, with an 7th that is my senior
employee that I’ve recently transitioned to ‘Lead Tech’. He’s a bit of a
facilitator, someone I can rely on to train new hires, audit installs, fix
major issues, etc. I’ve dealt with most issues mentioned, I’ve got the guys
that fly through jobs, can do 7 a day, but the quality lacks. Then I’ve got
the guys that might take 4 or 5 hours, but their installs are impeccable. The
main reason I started the ‘Lead Tech’ role, was to find a happy medium to all
the different methods, so that at the end of the day, the customer is satisfied
for many years to come. I think that’s my major takeaway, is regardless of how
long it takes, aside from obvious economics, as long as the job is a quality
job and the customer is satisfied, it’s a job well done.
As far as training new hires. We have always done that through
osmosis. We spend the first few days in the classroom, giving a basic
orientation of who we are, and what are system is like. I give some RF
training, so they understand it’s not magic, it’s not a laser, there is science
behind the actual physical structure of RF. Then I pair them up with a senior
tech, now the Lead Tech, and send them on their way. They spend the first
30-60 days of their 90 days with that tech, learning efficient ways to install,
and slowly taking on tasks as the Lead tech assigns. Eventually, working into
a role of doing the whole job while the Lead follows. During this time frame
we have break out sessions as needed. Early on I do a break out session on
tower safety, and we do follow up meetings with them and the Lead tech to see
how they are progressing, and I tweak their training as needed to address
concerns or short comings. Usually, by 40 days or so, they are ready to do
jobs, but no later than 60 days, and then we turn them lose to try it on their
own. You will always have call ins for help, expect that, and they will be
slow on their own at first, but I find the key is empowering them to make
decisions. Most of my slower guys are slow because they second, or triple,
guess their work, instead of just making a decision and moving on. I had one
guy that was told to test 5 different tours by dispatch to ‘find a signal’, he
thought that meant test all of them, even though he found a signal on the first
one he tested, so I had to explain the goal is to get a signal, period, it’s
inefficient to test all towers, Dispatch was just telling you that you have 5
options.
If you have an employee that is just too slow and not catching on,
it’s time to let them go, I’ve had to do that also. Some people just are not
cut out for this type of work, as it is a unique job of physical labor, mixed
with a level of intelligence when it comes to the technical side of things.
Military guys are GREAT installer hires, some of my best employees are former
military. Everything can be trained, but hiring someone that has the will
power and determination to work hard, and is respectful, is a huge advantage to
that process. I didn’t really see where you discussed the exact findings that
was causing your employee to be slow, but I’m sure once you start to identify
them, focusing some attention on those areas will quickly teach you on if they
can adapt, or need to be let go.
Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 www.royell.net
From: Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:31 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
Not saying to rush for the sake of rushing, saying to go fast. Do
things perfectly in the least amount of time possible. That means hustle. Why
would you chose to slowly drag your ass between the truck and the house? There
is absolutely no justification for not jogging back and forth. Not saying to
sprint or full on run. Just jog, show some hustle. Economy of movements.
That includes tool and supply organization.
At the end of the day it is now many perfect installs you do a day.
If you get more than the other guy and you drag your ass, I would not can you,
probably give you a raise.
But if you were dragging your ass, leaving the shop late, BSing
instead of working I would tell you to ‘hustle” one time...
From: Josh Reynolds
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:24 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
To tell the truth, I'd be telling you to fuck off as well.
Having an employee run is a liability for several reasons. Rushing
leads to forgotten things and shoddy work, and tying installs to pay with cause
you to end up with the install quality that DirecTV subcontractors do, as they
get paid per room/job as well. It's absolutely shit work that looks bad and
often has problems you will have to roll a truck for.
Slow and smooth, measured work, thought out in advance with no wasted
efficiency. THAT will be fast and quality work.
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."
In the end, it's your business. I'm just some guy.
- Josh
On Apr 24, 2017 8:57 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
Well then you would not be working for me. Or UPS or FedEX or Les
Schwab or Tunex or ......
Treating someone like crap is a far different thing than treating
them like an adult. You own their work output when they are on the clock and
they need to work efficiently.
It is not unreasonable at all to expect some hustle. I don’t pay
anyone to take their time.
From: Timothy Steele
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 7:53 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
If you treat your employees like crap like that there going to
start looking for a new boss I know if I was walking to the house and you told
me to run I would quit on the spot if that's what you want then go for it
On Mon, Apr 24, 2017, 9:43 AM Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:
You cannot expect a younger person to run for any reason until
they decide that it might benefit them, and even them real hustle will be rare.
I would put them on piece rate or daily rate and tell them they
have to do at least 3 per day to keep their job. Once they are doing 3, then
up it to 4 or keep them on piece rate.
Have you actually said “RUN!” when they were walking from truck
to house? Have them watch the first half of full metal jacket and give them a
bit of drill sergeant treatment.
I believe in “management by telling” you actually have to tell
them, in simple and clear terms exactly what you want.
From: Brandon Yuchasz
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 5:37 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] installer hire / training process.
I was going to type a long PC type post about this (which I did
anyway sorry) . But instead I am going to just ask how you guys go about trying
to teach / train a new installer to work faster?
We have a guy right now that was hired to be an installer with
other duties as assigned. He is good at the other duties and has a good
understanding of networking, computers and even RF. The problem is that he is
very slow on installs and the primary job he was hired to do.
I spent quite a bit of time with him last week trying to figure
out where the speed issues were coming from. So I took him on site surveys
ahead of time with me and we laid out the entire installs during the survey.
Install here, wire down here, across here in through wall here and terminate.
You could see the tower from these sites so hanging and tuning the radio was a
breeze.
I sent him out on two installs the day after that. First one I
considered a hard install. The second one easy. They took him over 10 hours
not counting drive time.
I spent the next morning doing site checks on them with the
customers permission. Both customers were happy with him and his install and
not a single thing on the install was done incorrectly I took another installer
with me and asked him to run the time frame in his head. He came up to 3 hours
for each install. So had I but we are both experienced.
So I talked really briefly with the new guy about getting faster
and then took him to an install I had surveyed myself. Ran him through the
entire install. Radio here, wire down here….. in and terminate. Install router.
I left the more experienced guy with him to answer questions but told him to
not physically help and explained to the new guy that if he had questions to
ask because the other guy is there to help him figure out a faster process and
would be talking with me after the install about ways to speed up the process
so we can help him. I should mention the experienced guy is a supervisor so no
hard feelings should be had here. I left him at 9:00
I was thinking that maybe I was being unrealistic in my time
frames on installs since normally I have a helper on my installs and we knock
out three to four a day. I felt like I got my installs done in 3 hours max when
I was alone but never really timed them. So when I left the new guy I drove a
half hour to what I considered a hard install and did it alone. Was done at
12:30 and driving back to check on the new guy. When I got there he was just
about done with the install but the truck was spread around the driveway ( not
throwing stones I have been known to do this). So he was going past hour 4 at
this point with paperwork and packing the truck he was going to be at 5 for
sure. I stepped in did the paperwork and quietly asked the other guy to pack
up the truck some. This was done for selfish reasons ( its Friday and I have a
family) and also because we had a between 1 and 3 to hit for the final install
of the day.
Grabbed subway. Scoffed it down. I bought and we headed to the
last job.
I had the supervisor guy in my truck and we have worked together
a lot 100s of installs together. So on the way to the install which he had
never seen I prep him on it. Big ladder ( 32”) up on the gable on the back of
the house. Take the little giant around to the deck so I can access the roof.
And it’s a tripod install. So when we pull into the drive I point to the back
of the house “that’s the back” he says okay and I go to ring the doorbell and
say hello. He has the new guy with him so he told him to help with the ladder
and then instructed him to start an rj45 on a wire. When I walked out the
ladder was up and the supervisor was at the top screwing down the tripod. I
grabbed the mast, mounted the antenna and put the wireless unit on it to tune
and scurried up the small ladder and up the roof. Ill make this short. We hung
the gear and tuned and marked the tripod and I went down and he had just
finished the RJ45. In his defense he had put one on a 3 foot scrap piece that
he had confused with the rest of the wire in the box( I don’t know) so this
was his second end. Anyway we just ran the job and he stayed out of the way.
This was a hard roof, tall and not LOS and we were done in the truck heading
home in just under two hours. But that was two guys and we ran.
Ok so this is getting long sorry about that but I just am at a
loss with this guy. I did realize on that last job I run on job sites. I always
run to the truck back from the truck and I think ahead. This guy defiantly does
not run and nothing is done with any sense of urgency. He is certainly smart
and I hate to let him go because he has other values but I don’t know what I
can do to help him. He was hired to take the load off of me and I realize at
the beginning new guys are work but its been over two months now he just
recently took on jobs alone and he is not taking the load off. He is adding to
it.
Thoughts?
Is to wrong to say, your slow I don’t know why but I am going to
fire you if you don’t get fast. I wish I could tell you how to get fast but Its
lots of little things. Start with running everywhere you go and see if that
helps?
Seriously…. I do want to know from those of you that have hired
lots of guys what are your thoughts? Should I not be running one man crews with
the expectation of two installs in an 8 hour day with an hour of drive time in
there?
Thanks,
Brandon
