I'm not concerned about AGI turning us into clones in a hive mind. I'm concerned about AGI making humans irrelevant. Why should humans exist when machines can do everything better?
I don't mean just that humans would be irrelevant to AGI. I mean that humans would be irrelevant to other humans too. -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] On Thu, Apr 9, 2026, 12:05 AM James Bowery <[email protected]> wrote: > We have a terminology problem obviously. "Human" means one thing to me > and something else to you. "Conspiracy" is another such word. "Perverse" > is another such word in all likelihood. Connotation loading is a big > problem but it isn't the only one. This is exemplified by the moral loading > of "perverse" as distinct from the constructive meaning denoted by "per" as > in additional and "verse" as in turning. I will say, however, that the > sexual perversion of eusocial insects is a kind of regression toward > mitotic reproduction that could be taken to the penultimate in a Brave New > World scenario where "Human" barely applies to the components behaving as > though they were humans. Ultimately, you just have clones whether derived > from biology, machinery or some combination thereof -- all achieving > various specializations, similar to the organs in the human body's organs > with their specialized tissues. > > Such clone civilizations "breathe together," or conspire, in the most > exquisite manner that we call the Individual Organism. That this > regression started the moment two primates used their advanced cognitive > capacity to deliberately gang up on another primate in an "unfair" fight > should be seen as the nascent undoing of the Cambrian Explosion. Beyond > that you start evolving the unconscious behavior now seen in "Humans" as > they go into a blind instinctive panic at the thought they might be last at > the dinner table feasting on the more individualistic and hence highly > creative cultures. > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2026 at 10:40 AM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> I guess I didn't get the point about cities. Human civilization happened >> because we evolved language and social cooperation. In other social >> species, such as lions, males are driven out of the pack to prevent >> inbreeding. What is the conspiracy? >> >> On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 4:47 PM James Bowery <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 1:04 PM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>>> But human behavior is inherited through language and culture, not just >>>> DNA. We can alter it. >>>> >>> Hence transhumans. >>> >>>> >>>> Humans are adapted to live on Earth. >>>> >>> >>> That's my point. >>> >>> We can send self replicating nanotechnology into space, maybe seeding >>>> planets in other solar systems and building Dyson spheres, and call them >>>> transhuman. >>>> >>> >>> You didn't get my point about cities. >>> >>> "Humanity" is already increasingly living in space habitats called >>> cities. But this started millions of years before so-called >>> "civilization". 6 million years ago approximately. >>> >>> Nor did you get my point about the Chimpanzee Human Last Common Ancestor >>> that Wilson discusses as the origin of the transhuman condition in group >>> warfare. >>> >>> Kubrick was quite prescient in that opening scene in 2001: A Space >>> Odyssey. >>> >>> The question is when that bone became a tool used in warfare between >>> Chimpanzee Human Last Common Ancestor gangs, was that the origin of Man or >>> was it he origin of what has come to be called "trans-man"? It was, in >>> fact, the origin of conspiracy -- breathing together to subvert the origin >>> of the evolution of nervous systems in the Cambrian Explosion with the >>> origin of Man, in the sense of masculinity, the sine qua non of which is >>> male individual intrasexual selection primarily through territorial >>> aggression that limited gene flow and provided an explosion of demes as a >>> result. >>> >>> The evolution of eusociality in the descendants of those wars was always >>> coupled with the evolution of technology by individual males driven from >>> the hive to live at the periphery and hence expand the ecological range >>> through tools and memes supporting tools. >>> >>> This did more than create the technology and advanced nervous systems >>> that permits us to engage in sociobiological engineering of ourselves. It >>> also provided a different use for cognition than mere conspiratorial >>> ganging up on individuals to drive them to the edge of habitable zones >>> where they HAD to invent technology or die. It provided an escape from the >>> evolution of eusociality in the evolution of individual integrity. It is >>> the later to which I refer when I say "Human" as opposed to "Transhuman". >>> >>> >>>> -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2026, 11:24 AM James Bowery <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Please excuse my acronyms -- I've been at this so long that it becomes >>>>> tiresome saying the same thing over and over again. "The Social >>>>> Conquest of Earth <https://youtu.be/bsgXYflLQjU>" aka TSCOE is one of >>>>> the most essential books of the last century. "TSCOE" is what I've taken >>>>> to typing from time to time but granting the book its own acronym is my >>>>> subconscious way of honoring its importance. TSCOE is by the late great >>>>> E. >>>>> O. Wilson aka EOW (who should be similarly granted a well-known acronym >>>>> for >>>>> the same reason). Wilson originated the terms "biodiversity" and >>>>> "sociobiology" on the strength of his fieldwork studying insects, >>>>> particularly eusocial insects. TSCOE discusses the nature of what O'Neill >>>>> calls "expanding technological civilization" as a nascent eusocial hive of >>>>> transhumans. >>>>> >>>>> I don't expect you to buy into O'Neill's answer for y'all because you >>>>> are just a sterile worker in that hive. It's not really up to you to >>>>> understand. It's up to whatever corresponds to the "brain bugs >>>>> <https://youtu.be/kIjDgiY-YyM>" that centralized control of the World >>>>> Reserve Currency aka WRC aka the "Worst Resource Curse >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse>". The WRC captures the >>>>> positive network externalities of technological civilization. Because it >>>>> is centralized by your betters, I had to propose >>>>> <https://ota.polyonymo.us/others-papers/NetAssetTax_Bowery.txt> a >>>>> political economy reform to decentralize it using a citizen's dividend >>>>> funded by a wealth tax >>>>> <https://ota.polyonymo.us/others-papers/NetAssetTax_Bowery.txt>. This >>>>> followed my attempt to help humanity finance better brain bugs so they'd >>>>> get on with the hive's telos. That was in response to discovering why >>>>> even >>>>> the private sector couldn't capitalize lowering the cost of access to >>>>> space. Hell, not even EO Wilson understands the importance of space. He >>>>> actively dismisses space as a proper ecosystem for your hive and he's >>>>> among >>>>> the most important thinkers on these issues I rely on! You'll see him >>>>> introduced by Stewart Brand in the aforelilnked video on TSCOE. >>>>> >>>>> But I'll just say this about transhumans and their proper >>>>> environment: Cities are nascent space stations. >>>>> [image: image.png] >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2026 at 8:03 PM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> James, I don't understand your oblique references. Can you please >>>>>> just say directly what you mean without big words? It is really >>>>>> frustrating. I figured out that CHLCA is chimpanzee human last common >>>>>> ancestor. I don't know what Wilson's TSCOE is. I don't think that by WRC >>>>>> you mean the World Rally Championship. What options should we be jumping >>>>>> on? >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess you are arguing that human civilization needs to go into >>>>>> space to survive, but I really don't know. But if that's the case, I >>>>>> disagree. It is much cheaper to send robots into space. The Earth >>>>>> receives >>>>>> 90 petawatts of solar energy, enough to support 45 trillion people at the >>>>>> current consumption rate of 2 KW. And even that is 20 times our base >>>>>> metabolism. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2026, 5:36 PM James Bowery <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2026 at 2:40 PM Matt Mahoney < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>> Maybe you can explain the conflict between humanity and >>>>>>>> transhumanity. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It goes back to the CHLCA according to E O Wilson's "The Social >>>>>>> Conquest of Earth" -- and it is more accurately characterizd as a >>>>>>> conflict >>>>>>> between transhumanity and the biosphere or, to be more specific, between >>>>>>> sexuality and what one might call "trans-sexuality", which I call sexual >>>>>>> perversion. So sexual perversion of the primate line started with >>>>>>> CHLCA in >>>>>>> the form of nascent eusociality. See "Brave New World" if you want an >>>>>>> amazingly prescient fictional portrayal of what I referred to as " >>>>>>> y'all <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_(novel)>." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now don't take the word "perversion" as an insult since some of the >>>>>>> most vital aspects of the biosphere are sexually perverted such as the >>>>>>> eusocial insects which are vital to the biosphere. As Wilson described >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> TSCOE, the form transhumanity takes is incredibly dangerous to all life >>>>>>> because humanity is the most extreme "generalist species" yet >>>>>>> encountered. >>>>>>> Imaginary such species are of course the infamous "paperclip >>>>>>> maximizers", >>>>>>> although a much more benign form would be what O'Neill implied in >>>>>>> "asking >>>>>>> the right question" of his most gifted physics students: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Is the surface of a planet really the right place for an expanding >>>>>>> technological civilization?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is why I was O'Neill's local support team leader in Miami when >>>>>>> Bezos gave his valedictorian speech -- although Bezos hasn't yet quite >>>>>>> gotten the Earth telos right. Sadly, NASA lied about the $/mass to LEO >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> did incredible amounts of damage that I attempted to remediate 10 years >>>>>>> later at untold personal sacrifice only to learn That Unspeakable Thing >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> DC is the primary enemy of life due to the WRC trickledown through the >>>>>>> institutions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It looks to me like transhumanity is winning for the simple reason >>>>>>>> that the cost of medical care is doubling every 9 years while the cost >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> technology is halving every 3 years. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The conflict isn't about transhumanity losing. Why do you think I >>>>>>> was ahead of ya'll by DECADES in trying to give ya'll options that, were >>>>>>> you sane, you'd have jumped on with all 4s and run with? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> -- >> -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] >> > *Artificial General Intelligence List <https://agi.topicbox.com/latest>* > / AGI / see discussions <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi> + > participants <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/members> + > delivery options <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription> > Permalink > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/Tc2616dc0a8577813-Mf2e50975312c5595c89dc76b> > ------------------------------------------ Artificial General Intelligence List: AGI Permalink: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/Tc2616dc0a8577813-M330e866b4b8b02d5751144f1 Delivery options: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription
