On Sat, Apr 11, 2026 at 5:24 PM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm not concerned about AGI turning us into clones in a hive mind. I'm > concerned about AGI making humans irrelevant. Why should humans exist when > machines can do everything better? > > I don't mean just that humans would be irrelevant to AGI. > That depends on the utility function, or telos with which they've been parameterized. > I mean that humans would be irrelevant to other humans too. > This returns to our terminology problem and the profound division occurring between humans and de facto "can't make a pencil <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Pencil>" cyborgs. I understand and agree with you when you say "humans" aren't built for space. Nor are humans built for "civilization" (as we know it). > > -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2026, 12:05 AM James Bowery <[email protected]> wrote: > >> We have a terminology problem obviously. "Human" means one thing to me >> and something else to you. "Conspiracy" is another such word. "Perverse" >> is another such word in all likelihood. Connotation loading is a big >> problem but it isn't the only one. This is exemplified by the moral loading >> of "perverse" as distinct from the constructive meaning denoted by "per" as >> in additional and "verse" as in turning. I will say, however, that the >> sexual perversion of eusocial insects is a kind of regression toward >> mitotic reproduction that could be taken to the penultimate in a Brave New >> World scenario where "Human" barely applies to the components behaving as >> though they were humans. Ultimately, you just have clones whether derived >> from biology, machinery or some combination thereof -- all achieving >> various specializations, similar to the organs in the human body's organs >> with their specialized tissues. >> >> Such clone civilizations "breathe together," or conspire, in the most >> exquisite manner that we call the Individual Organism. That this >> regression started the moment two primates used their advanced cognitive >> capacity to deliberately gang up on another primate in an "unfair" fight >> should be seen as the nascent undoing of the Cambrian Explosion. Beyond >> that you start evolving the unconscious behavior now seen in "Humans" as >> they go into a blind instinctive panic at the thought they might be last at >> the dinner table feasting on the more individualistic and hence highly >> creative cultures. >> >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2026 at 10:40 AM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> I guess I didn't get the point about cities. Human civilization happened >>> because we evolved language and social cooperation. In other social >>> species, such as lions, males are driven out of the pack to prevent >>> inbreeding. What is the conspiracy? >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 4:47 PM James Bowery <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 1:04 PM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> But human behavior is inherited through language and culture, not just >>>>> DNA. We can alter it. >>>>> >>>> Hence transhumans. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Humans are adapted to live on Earth. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That's my point. >>>> >>>> We can send self replicating nanotechnology into space, maybe seeding >>>>> planets in other solar systems and building Dyson spheres, and call them >>>>> transhuman. >>>>> >>>> >>>> You didn't get my point about cities. >>>> >>>> "Humanity" is already increasingly living in space habitats called >>>> cities. But this started millions of years before so-called >>>> "civilization". 6 million years ago approximately. >>>> >>>> Nor did you get my point about the Chimpanzee Human Last Common >>>> Ancestor that Wilson discusses as the origin of the transhuman condition in >>>> group warfare. >>>> >>>> Kubrick was quite prescient in that opening scene in 2001: A Space >>>> Odyssey. >>>> >>>> The question is when that bone became a tool used in warfare between >>>> Chimpanzee Human Last Common Ancestor gangs, was that the origin of Man or >>>> was it he origin of what has come to be called "trans-man"? It was, in >>>> fact, the origin of conspiracy -- breathing together to subvert the origin >>>> of the evolution of nervous systems in the Cambrian Explosion with the >>>> origin of Man, in the sense of masculinity, the sine qua non of which is >>>> male individual intrasexual selection primarily through territorial >>>> aggression that limited gene flow and provided an explosion of demes as a >>>> result. >>>> >>>> The evolution of eusociality in the descendants of those wars was >>>> always coupled with the evolution of technology by individual males driven >>>> from the hive to live at the periphery and hence expand the ecological >>>> range through tools and memes supporting tools. >>>> >>>> This did more than create the technology and advanced nervous systems >>>> that permits us to engage in sociobiological engineering of ourselves. It >>>> also provided a different use for cognition than mere conspiratorial >>>> ganging up on individuals to drive them to the edge of habitable zones >>>> where they HAD to invent technology or die. It provided an escape from the >>>> evolution of eusociality in the evolution of individual integrity. It is >>>> the later to which I refer when I say "Human" as opposed to "Transhuman". >>>> >>>> >>>>> -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2026, 11:24 AM James Bowery <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Please excuse my acronyms -- I've been at this so long that it >>>>>> becomes tiresome saying the same thing over and over again. "The >>>>>> Social Conquest of Earth <https://youtu.be/bsgXYflLQjU>" aka TSCOE >>>>>> is one of the most essential books of the last century. "TSCOE" is what >>>>>> I've taken to typing from time to time but granting the book its own >>>>>> acronym is my subconscious way of honoring its importance. TSCOE is by >>>>>> the >>>>>> late great E. O. Wilson aka EOW (who should be similarly granted a >>>>>> well-known acronym for the same reason). Wilson originated the terms >>>>>> "biodiversity" and "sociobiology" on the strength of his fieldwork >>>>>> studying >>>>>> insects, particularly eusocial insects. TSCOE discusses the nature of >>>>>> what >>>>>> O'Neill calls "expanding technological civilization" as a nascent >>>>>> eusocial >>>>>> hive of transhumans. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't expect you to buy into O'Neill's answer for y'all because you >>>>>> are just a sterile worker in that hive. It's not really up to you to >>>>>> understand. It's up to whatever corresponds to the "brain bugs >>>>>> <https://youtu.be/kIjDgiY-YyM>" that centralized control of the >>>>>> World Reserve Currency aka WRC aka the "Worst Resource Curse >>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse>". The WRC captures >>>>>> the positive network externalities of technological civilization. >>>>>> Because >>>>>> it is centralized by your betters, I had to propose >>>>>> <https://ota.polyonymo.us/others-papers/NetAssetTax_Bowery.txt> a >>>>>> political economy reform to decentralize it using a citizen's dividend >>>>>> funded by a wealth tax >>>>>> <https://ota.polyonymo.us/others-papers/NetAssetTax_Bowery.txt>. >>>>>> This followed my attempt to help humanity finance better brain bugs so >>>>>> they'd get on with the hive's telos. That was in response to discovering >>>>>> why even the private sector couldn't capitalize lowering the cost of >>>>>> access >>>>>> to space. Hell, not even EO Wilson understands the importance of space. >>>>>> He actively dismisses space as a proper ecosystem for your hive and he's >>>>>> among the most important thinkers on these issues I rely on! You'll see >>>>>> him introduced by Stewart Brand in the aforelilnked video on TSCOE. >>>>>> >>>>>> But I'll just say this about transhumans and their proper >>>>>> environment: Cities are nascent space stations. >>>>>> [image: image.png] >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2026 at 8:03 PM Matt Mahoney <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> James, I don't understand your oblique references. Can you please >>>>>>> just say directly what you mean without big words? It is really >>>>>>> frustrating. I figured out that CHLCA is chimpanzee human last common >>>>>>> ancestor. I don't know what Wilson's TSCOE is. I don't think that by WRC >>>>>>> you mean the World Rally Championship. What options should we be >>>>>>> jumping on? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I guess you are arguing that human civilization needs to go into >>>>>>> space to survive, but I really don't know. But if that's the case, I >>>>>>> disagree. It is much cheaper to send robots into space. The Earth >>>>>>> receives >>>>>>> 90 petawatts of solar energy, enough to support 45 trillion people at >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> current consumption rate of 2 KW. And even that is 20 times our base >>>>>>> metabolism. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2026, 5:36 PM James Bowery <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2026 at 2:40 PM Matt Mahoney < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>> Maybe you can explain the conflict between humanity and >>>>>>>>> transhumanity. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It goes back to the CHLCA according to E O Wilson's "The Social >>>>>>>> Conquest of Earth" -- and it is more accurately characterizd as a >>>>>>>> conflict >>>>>>>> between transhumanity and the biosphere or, to be more specific, >>>>>>>> between >>>>>>>> sexuality and what one might call "trans-sexuality", which I call >>>>>>>> sexual >>>>>>>> perversion. So sexual perversion of the primate line started with >>>>>>>> CHLCA in >>>>>>>> the form of nascent eusociality. See "Brave New World" if you want an >>>>>>>> amazingly prescient fictional portrayal of what I referred to as " >>>>>>>> y'all <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_(novel)>." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now don't take the word "perversion" as an insult since some of the >>>>>>>> most vital aspects of the biosphere are sexually perverted such as the >>>>>>>> eusocial insects which are vital to the biosphere. As Wilson >>>>>>>> described in >>>>>>>> TSCOE, the form transhumanity takes is incredibly dangerous to all life >>>>>>>> because humanity is the most extreme "generalist species" yet >>>>>>>> encountered. >>>>>>>> Imaginary such species are of course the infamous "paperclip >>>>>>>> maximizers", >>>>>>>> although a much more benign form would be what O'Neill implied in >>>>>>>> "asking >>>>>>>> the right question" of his most gifted physics students: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Is the surface of a planet really the right place for an expanding >>>>>>>> technological civilization?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That is why I was O'Neill's local support team leader in Miami when >>>>>>>> Bezos gave his valedictorian speech -- although Bezos hasn't yet quite >>>>>>>> gotten the Earth telos right. Sadly, NASA lied about the $/mass to >>>>>>>> LEO and >>>>>>>> did incredible amounts of damage that I attempted to remediate 10 years >>>>>>>> later at untold personal sacrifice only to learn That Unspeakable >>>>>>>> Thing In >>>>>>>> DC is the primary enemy of life due to the WRC trickledown through the >>>>>>>> institutions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It looks to me like transhumanity is winning for the simple reason >>>>>>>>> that the cost of medical care is doubling every 9 years while the >>>>>>>>> cost of >>>>>>>>> technology is halving every 3 years. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The conflict isn't about transhumanity losing. Why do you think I >>>>>>>> was ahead of ya'll by DECADES in trying to give ya'll options that, >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> you sane, you'd have jumped on with all 4s and run with? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- Matt Mahoney, [email protected] >>> >> *Artificial General Intelligence List <https://agi.topicbox.com/latest>* > / AGI / see discussions <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi> + > participants <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/members> + > delivery options <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription> > Permalink > <https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/Tc2616dc0a8577813-M330e866b4b8b02d5751144f1> > ------------------------------------------ Artificial General Intelligence List: AGI Permalink: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/Tc2616dc0a8577813-M37ed62c9cd7998b4fdb869de Delivery options: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/subscription
