Yes you are wrong (about my perspective). I have helped several engineers
study for and pass the CCIE written as well as the lab. My concern is in
preserving the value of the cert. As for dog-eat-dog I'll help anyone who is
sincere and wants to learn - providing they are willing to put in the
effort. However, I will not "give them the answers" so that they can make
the value of my cert less.
Prior to so much study material being available, you had to study and know
how to handle a wide array of issues, the specifics as to what is on the lab
were simply unknown and therefore you had to be prepared for anything - and
know it well. Now that the study materials have become available, it allows
a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on routing
and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab
without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they just
need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued
the certification.
If we have 100,000 CCIEs all of which know there stuff and are a credit to
the certification then I have no problem with it. It we have 8000 CCIEs and
1000 of them can't live up to the expectations of the certification, then it
hurts the value not only of the other 7000, but also of any future
recipients of the certification.
I am not bitter or angry (thanks for jumping to conclusions) that the study
guides weren't around, some were when I received my cert and I certainly
used them. I don't want them to go away. I own many of the books written by
other CCIEs and use them as a reference quite often. I am thankful they are
available. The materials that exist have the potential to help all of us. My
issue is simply one of "The CCIE certification should not be devaulued" -
that is my chief concern and my reason for answering the survey the way I
did. The only reason I posted my response to the survey was because I was
asked to do so. I apologize if my opinions differ from yours and you are
therefore offended. It was not my intention to offend you. You most
certainly are entitled to your opinion and I don't expect to change your
mind.
Hope this clears things up a bit, otherwise we'll have to just agree to
disagree.
Louie
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Bradley J. Wilson
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:13 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Well, again, Sir Edmund, just because the newcomers can be better-informed
before their attempts doesn't mean that the challenge needs to be altered or
is less of a challenge for the individual.
Again, I'm not against making certs tougher to achieve. But it sounds like
there's a touch of bitterness that these study guides weren't around way
back when...well, that's just the way life is. Making the CCIE "tougher"
and still calling it the "CCIE" is like asking runners to run a 400m race,
but then making them run 500m without telling them. ;-) Besides, the
argument about the study materials is subjective. Was CCO around when you
took the CCIE? Were other engineers around who were studying for it? Were
used routers around for you to purchase, and perhaps set up for others to
telnet into? I'm sure there were - if you (and/or others) didn't make use
of them, then that's water under the source-route bridge.
If you want someone to be angry at, be angry at the people who took the
CCIE, passed or not, and then went out and wrote books on how to study for
the CCIE. But I personally don't think these people are doing a disservice
to the CCIE, nor are they devaluing it - and with a consistent 80% failure
rate, they're certainly not making it "less challenging." The study guides,
etc. make it more of a group effort, and there's nothing wrong with that -
not against the rules, not against the NDA, and our society wins because
we're able to learn from (and teach to) one another, thereby filling the
desperate need we have today for knowledgeable network engineers. Don't
punish those of us who have not yet earned our CCIE status for using the
resources which are available to us - or for having the foresight to create
and share new resources.
It really sounds like your argument is that it should be more of a
"dog-eat-dog" world than a world where we're allowed to cooperate and share
knowledge.
Am I wrong? If so, why?
----- Original Message -----
From: Louie Belt
To: Bradley J. Wilson
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 8:56 PM
Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
I willing to have the tougher recerts and the tougher challenge with my 2nd
CCIE cert. The bar has been lowered due to the deluge of study materials
that are now present to assist you. I'm for putting the bar back to where
it was taking into consideration the additional study aids available.
Louie
and also wrote...
When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to
help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study
guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I
feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was.
Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that it
is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert.
Louie
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Bradley J. Wilson
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:32 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are you
up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when
*you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as
it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the
top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of me?
If Cisco wants to make the test "tougher," they're well within their rights
to do so. I just hope they don't call it the "CCIE" - call it something
different, and reset the numbers to zero (or 1025, whichever).
----- Original Message -----
From: Louie Belt
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be tougher.
A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This
has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the
backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written).
Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the increased
study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert.
If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as
difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you are
not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt.
As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers
couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE.
The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already have
an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the CCIE
population to also ask for their input and most have given it willingly.
My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am
currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it tougher
(before I complete it). I also hope they make the recertification tests
tougher as well.
I'm up to the challenge - are you?
Louie
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Bradley J. Wilson
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:11 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
Forgive my cynicism, but any CCIE *would* want the lab to be tougher - they
would know that any CCIEs that came along after they received their number
increase the supply, thus lowering the cost of the good. ;-)
I think Cisco ought to be asking companies who *hire* CCIEs what skills
*they* would like to see in those who carry the CCIE certification - not the
number-carrying CCIEs themselves.
BJ
P.S. And while I'm feeling cynical...can we please move the "NT vs. UNIX"
nonsense to private emails or perhaps a different mail list? Theeeeenks.
----- Original Message -----
From: Belt, Louie
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:15 PM
Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
I filled out my survey and told them I wanted it to stay a two day lab -
and if anything - make it tougher. The explosion of materials available to
help people get though the written and prepare for the lab has taken some of
the challenge out of the process in my opinion. I would prefer they keep it
a 2 day lab, make it mean as h*** and keep the prestige in the cert. I also
told them I did not want them to stop issuing the medal for those who
succeed.
Louie
-----Original Message-----
From: CCIE Wanna BE
To: Belt, Louie; '[EMAIL PROTECTED] '
Sent: 6/1/01 8:23 AM
Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
So what is everyone's take?
--- "Belt, Louie" wrote:
> That is simply one possible solution. They have
> sent a survey out to all of
> the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions.
>
> Louie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CCIE Wanna BE
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM
> Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
>
> A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing
> on
> moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day
> (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't
> going
> to be easier, it's going to be harder....
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail -
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