This message isn't a reply to anyone in specific. Something "Circusnuts"
said kinda sparked some questions/thoughts........
Two things, IMHO, that no amount of book reading or practice in a lab can
give: The ability to be a quick thinker and good troubleshooter.
I know there are writings and courses on troubleshooting, I used to teach
one, however, I believe that true troubleshooting skills, that separate the
"good" CCNP/CCIE from the "paper" CCNP/CCIE, is a natural thing that a
person either has or doesn't have. Kinda like the ability to play music by
ear. Either you can do it or your can't. I learned that I had good
troubleshooting skills when could (successfully) debug assembly language
code that I'd written while teaching myself at the age of 12 using the
trusty Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide. =) Some people can see
and read about common problems and learn their solutions, but it's the true
troubleshooters that can use their tools and logic to zero in on problems
quickly that really make the grade. Isn't the first half of the second day
of the lab a kind of "think-fast" troubleshooting session? I think that is
what the CCIE lab exam should (and I thought did) try to determine if
someone has.
Focusing on testing for "true troubleshooting" talent would definitely
separate the "good" from "paper" candidates and would keep the CCIE from
being "devalued". Heh, I've been typing this response for about 30 minutes
now (editing this, editing that, etc), but I think I've hit on what I truly
would like to see between the CCIE written/lab. The written should be used
to evaluate knowledge of protocols, routing, switching, commands, etc.....
the lab should be used to *focus* on whether or not someone can
troubleshoot. I think with enough pratice, anyone can take a lab diagram
and configure the equipment properly. But fixing something that is broken
takes intuition, logic.... more "talent" so to speak, so why not focus the
lab on troubleshooting many problems over a 2 day period... for that matter,
give the candidate a fully configured network when they walk in and don't
give ANY information about it....... then tell them "I can't ping from here
to here" and let them figure it out from the ground up...... This is all
just random mumblings at this point....... any comments are welcome..... I
apologize to the group for such a long, pointless post =)
As a side note....... I keep seeing people say things where they draw some
conclusion about the lab (or what it's difficulty should be) based on some
feelings about the written exam, etc......... Aren't the written and the
lab, really two mutually exclusive entities? I realize the written is
needed to get to the lab, but from what I've been told about them both, the
written still covers X.25, DECnet, Appletalk, etc. (i.e. OLD STUFF) and
excludes topics like multicast and voice (NEW STUFF), while conversely the
lab has dropped most of the stuff like X.25, IPX, AppleTalk, etc and
includes stuff like multicast and voice. I don't know 100% about what's
been dropped or added to the lab (or the written for that matter), but my
point is simply that it seems the written isn't meant as a "preparation" for
the lab because they test different things, so why base opinions about the
difficulty of the lab on the difficulty (or ease) of the written or how many
people have passed it? As someone else said, the extremely high failure
rate of the CCIE lab should be an indication that it's plenty difficult no
matter now many people pass the written.....
Thanks,
Mike W.
"Circusnuts" wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Louie- I don't think we're talk'n Apple to Apples here...
>
> During the early CCIE exams, I was told candidates were able to use their
> own notes during the test (if Pamela Forsythe is out there, she could
> confirm this rumor) & can you imagine how much "easier" the lab would have
> been with versions 9.0, 10.0 or even 11.0(22) IOS. I agree there's more
> information available, but after having sat through a 2 week CCIE lab prep
> class... I think the information just gets you in the ballpark. Things
> like bad time management & poor interpretations, are big obstacles no book
> can fix. I believe the exam is as hard (if not harder) than it's ever
been.
>
> Man- this cup of coffee I'm drink'n must not be decaff :o)
> Phil
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Louie Belt
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:16 PM
> Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
>
>
> > When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable
to
> > help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study
> > guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I
> > feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was.
> >
> > Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that
> it
> > is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the
cert.
> >
> > Louie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > Michael L. Williams
> > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 12:09 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
> >
> >
> > I agree with you. It's awful easy for someone who's already gotten
their
> > CCIE (which when they passed the lab probably could be quoted as saying
> > something like "that was the most difficult thing I've ever seen") to
now
> > say "Sure...... make it as difficult as possible.... "
> >
> > I don't know many CCIEs personally. Only a couple, and both of them
said
> > that given the time constraints of the lab (2 days), it is extremely
> > difficult. So I don't think jamming it into 1 day just because Cisco is
> too
> > cheap to spring for more testing centers to keep up with demand is a
> > "resonable solution". Isn't this why Cisco is contemplating making it 1
> > day? Not to "raise the bar" of the level of the exam, but simply
because
> > they're testing centers can't handle the demand. Mashing into 1 day,
> IMHO,
> > would be a very poor decision.
> >
> > Agreeing with Brad, do all of the CCIEs that are out there have a
problem
> > with leaving the bar where it was when you passed it? It only seems
fair.
> >
> > Mike W.
> >
> > "Bradley J. Wilson" wrote in message
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup.
Are
> > you
> > > up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was
> when
> > > *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult
enough
> as
> > > it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on
> the
> > > top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of
me?
> > >
> > > If Cisco wants to make the test "tougher," they're well within their
> > rights
> > > to do so. I just hope they don't call it the "CCIE" - call it
something
> > > different, and reset the numbers to zero (or 1025, whichever).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Louie Belt
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:33 AM
> > > Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
> > >
> > >
> > > Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be
> > tougher.
> > > A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past.
> This
> > > has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by
the
> > > backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written).
> > > Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the
> > increased
> > > study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert.
> > >
> > > If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as
> > > difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If
you
> > are
> > > not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt.
> > >
> > > As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers
> > > couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a
CCIE.
> > > The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should
already
> > have
> > > an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the
CCIE
> > > population to also ask for their input and most have given it
willingly.
> > >
> > > My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am
> > > currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it
> > tougher
> > > (before I complete it). I also hope they make the recertification
tests
> > > tougher as well.
> > >
> > > I'm up to the challenge - are you?
> > >
> > >
> > > Louie
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> > > Bradley J. Wilson
> > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:11 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
> > >
> > >
> > > Forgive my cynicism, but any CCIE *would* want the lab to be tougher -
> > they
> > > would know that any CCIEs that came along after they received their
> number
> > > increase the supply, thus lowering the cost of the good. ;-)
> > >
> > > I think Cisco ought to be asking companies who *hire* CCIEs what
skills
> > > *they* would like to see in those who carry the CCIE certification -
not
> > the
> > > number-carrying CCIEs themselves.
> > >
> > > BJ
> > >
> > > P.S. And while I'm feeling cynical...can we please move the "NT vs.
> UNIX"
> > > nonsense to private emails or perhaps a different mail list?
> Theeeeenks.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Belt, Louie
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:15 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
> > >
> > >
> > > I filled out my survey and told them I wanted it to stay a two day
lab -
> > > and if anything - make it tougher. The explosion of materials
available
> > to
> > > help people get though the written and prepare for the lab has taken
> some
> > of
> > > the challenge out of the process in my opinion. I would prefer they
> keep
> > it
> > > a 2 day lab, make it mean as h*** and keep the prestige in the cert.
I
> > also
> > > told them I did not want them to stop issuing the medal for those who
> > > succeed.
> > >
> > > Louie
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: CCIE Wanna BE
> > > To: Belt, Louie; '[EMAIL PROTECTED] '
> > > Sent: 6/1/01 8:23 AM
> > > Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
> > >
> > > So what is everyone's take?
> > > --- "Belt, Louie" wrote:
> > > > That is simply one possible solution. They have
> > > > sent a survey out to all of
> > > > the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions.
> > > >
> > > > Louie
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: CCIE Wanna BE
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM
> > > > Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
> > > >
> > > > A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing
> > > > on
> > > > moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day
> > > > (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't
> > > > going
> > > > to be easier, it's going to be harder....
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
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