Your comment
"Now that the study materials have become available, it allows
> a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on
routing
> and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab
> without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they
just
> need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued
> the certification."
I agree, and I think shortening the lab to one day will mean that the
testing will have to be even more specific. If you know anything can come
up on the lab, then you have to know everything, *unless* there is not
enough variety of exam, so a group of 3-4 candidates taking the exam
together may fail a couple of times, but by that time they know what all the
labs are. (Although I'm sure that doesn't happen - much).
A larger variety of labs would suppress this sort of thing. A shorter lab
can only increase the multiple attempt methodology (eventually I'll get one
I (we) know).
It looks like I may not be going to CCIE now, mainly due to the diversity of
products our company supports. I don't think I can concentrate enough on
Cisco. Even so, I would not like to see the CCIE devalued. Devalue the CCIE
and it automatically devalues the CCNP etc (rightly or wrongly).
Gaz
""Louie Belt"" wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Yes you are wrong (about my perspective). I have helped several engineers
> study for and pass the CCIE written as well as the lab. My concern is in
> preserving the value of the cert. As for dog-eat-dog I'll help anyone who
is
> sincere and wants to learn - providing they are willing to put in the
> effort. However, I will not "give them the answers" so that they can make
> the value of my cert less.
>
> Prior to so much study material being available, you had to study and know
> how to handle a wide array of issues, the specifics as to what is on the
lab
> were simply unknown and therefore you had to be prepared for anything -
and
> know it well. Now that the study materials have become available, it
allows
> a candidate to be more focused on lab specific issues instead of on
routing
> and swicthing in general. As a result a candidate can now pass the lab
> without having a decent broad knowledge of routing and switching, they
just
> need to know how to prepare for the lab. That in my opinion has devalued
> the certification.
>
> If we have 100,000 CCIEs all of which know there stuff and are a credit to
> the certification then I have no problem with it. It we have 8000 CCIEs
and
> 1000 of them can't live up to the expectations of the certification, then
it
> hurts the value not only of the other 7000, but also of any future
> recipients of the certification.
>
> I am not bitter or angry (thanks for jumping to conclusions) that the
study
> guides weren't around, some were when I received my cert and I certainly
> used them. I don't want them to go away. I own many of the books written
by
> other CCIEs and use them as a reference quite often. I am thankful they
are
> available. The materials that exist have the potential to help all of us.
My
> issue is simply one of "The CCIE certification should not be devaulued" -
> that is my chief concern and my reason for answering the survey the way I
> did. The only reason I posted my response to the survey was because I was
> asked to do so. I apologize if my opinions differ from yours and you are
> therefore offended. It was not my intention to offend you. You most
> certainly are entitled to your opinion and I don't expect to change your
> mind.
>
>
> Hope this clears things up a bit, otherwise we'll have to just agree to
> disagree.
>
> Louie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> Bradley J. Wilson
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:13 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
>
>
> Well, again, Sir Edmund, just because the newcomers can be better-informed
> before their attempts doesn't mean that the challenge needs to be altered
or
> is less of a challenge for the individual.
>
> Again, I'm not against making certs tougher to achieve. But it sounds
like
> there's a touch of bitterness that these study guides weren't around way
> back when...well, that's just the way life is. Making the CCIE "tougher"
> and still calling it the "CCIE" is like asking runners to run a 400m race,
> but then making them run 500m without telling them. ;-) Besides, the
> argument about the study materials is subjective. Was CCO around when you
> took the CCIE? Were other engineers around who were studying for it?
Were
> used routers around for you to purchase, and perhaps set up for others to
> telnet into? I'm sure there were - if you (and/or others) didn't make use
> of them, then that's water under the source-route bridge.
>
> If you want someone to be angry at, be angry at the people who took the
> CCIE, passed or not, and then went out and wrote books on how to study for
> the CCIE. But I personally don't think these people are doing a
disservice
> to the CCIE, nor are they devaluing it - and with a consistent 80% failure
> rate, they're certainly not making it "less challenging." The study
guides,
> etc. make it more of a group effort, and there's nothing wrong with that -
> not against the rules, not against the NDA, and our society wins because
> we're able to learn from (and teach to) one another, thereby filling the
> desperate need we have today for knowledgeable network engineers. Don't
> punish those of us who have not yet earned our CCIE status for using the
> resources which are available to us - or for having the foresight to
create
> and share new resources.
>
> It really sounds like your argument is that it should be more of a
> "dog-eat-dog" world than a world where we're allowed to cooperate and
share
> knowledge.
>
> Am I wrong? If so, why?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Louie Belt
> To: Bradley J. Wilson
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 8:56 PM
> Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
>
>
> I willing to have the tougher recerts and the tougher challenge with my
2nd
> CCIE cert. The bar has been lowered due to the deluge of study materials
> that are now present to assist you. I'm for putting the bar back to where
> it was taking into consideration the additional study aids available.
>
> Louie
>
> and also wrote...
>
> When the CCIE cert first came about there were not 100+ books avilable to
> help you pass it. There were not a multitude of online labs, lab study
> guides, study groups, ... Since all of those items are now available, I
> feel the bar has been lowered. I'm for putting it back where it was.
>
> Additionally I'm studying for my second CCIE cert, I sincerely hope that
it
> is much tougher than my first. I want to maintain the value of the cert.
>
> Louie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> Bradley J. Wilson
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:32 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
>
>
> If I weren't up to the challenge, I wouldn't be on this newsgroup. Are
you
> up to the challenge of leaving the bar at the same height that it was when
> *you* passed the test? I personally think the test is difficult enough as
> it is. Am I a wimp because of that? Do we need to dump some dirt on the
> top of Everest now that it's been conquered by someone else ahead of me?
>
> If Cisco wants to make the test "tougher," they're well within their
rights
> to do so. I just hope they don't call it the "CCIE" - call it something
> different, and reset the numbers to zero (or 1025, whichever).
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Louie Belt
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:33 AM
> Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
>
>
> Any CCIE or CCIE candidate worth his salt would want the lab to be
tougher.
> A number of study aids are now available that were not in the past. This
> has somewhat lessened the difficulty of the process (as witnessed by the
> backlog of people taking the lab after breezing through the written).
> Making it tougher is just a method of counterbalancing all of the
increased
> study aids and maintaining the value of the CCIE cert.
>
> If you truly want to obtain your CCIE then you should want it to be as
> difficult as possible, otherwise where is the value in the cert? If you
are
> not up to the challenge, then don't make the attempt.
>
> As for who should evaluate the CCIE program - most (not all)employers
> couldn't begin to answer the questions about what is needed from a CCIE.
> The biggest employer of CCIE's is Cisco (by far) so they should already
have
> an idea of what is needed. Cisco has been respectful enough of the CCIE
> population to also ask for their input and most have given it willingly.
>
> My main interested is in preserving the value of the CCIE cert. I am
> currently studying for my 2nd CCIE cert and still hope they make it
tougher
> (before I complete it). I also hope they make the recertification tests
> tougher as well.
>
> I'm up to the challenge - are you?
>
>
> Louie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> Bradley J. Wilson
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:11 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
>
>
> Forgive my cynicism, but any CCIE *would* want the lab to be tougher -
they
> would know that any CCIEs that came along after they received their number
> increase the supply, thus lowering the cost of the good. ;-)
>
> I think Cisco ought to be asking companies who *hire* CCIEs what skills
> *they* would like to see in those who carry the CCIE certification - not
the
> number-carrying CCIEs themselves.
>
> BJ
>
> P.S. And while I'm feeling cynical...can we please move the "NT vs. UNIX"
> nonsense to private emails or perhaps a different mail list? Theeeeenks.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Belt, Louie
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:15 PM
> Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
>
>
> I filled out my survey and told them I wanted it to stay a two day lab -
> and if anything - make it tougher. The explosion of materials available
to
> help people get though the written and prepare for the lab has taken some
of
> the challenge out of the process in my opinion. I would prefer they keep
it
> a 2 day lab, make it mean as h*** and keep the prestige in the cert. I
also
> told them I did not want them to stop issuing the medal for those who
> succeed.
>
> Louie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CCIE Wanna BE
> To: Belt, Louie; '[EMAIL PROTECTED] '
> Sent: 6/1/01 8:23 AM
> Subject: RE: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
>
> So what is everyone's take?
> --- "Belt, Louie" wrote:
> > That is simply one possible solution. They have
> > sent a survey out to all of
> > the CCIE's to get their feedback and suggestions.
> >
> > Louie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: CCIE Wanna BE
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: 6/1/01 5:35 AM
> > Subject: Cisco moving to a one day lab? [7:6735]
> >
> > A Cisco manager/CCIE told me that Cisco was planing
> > on
> > moving from the two day CCIE lab, to a one day
> > (because of the back log). But the 1 day isn't
> > going
> > to be easier, it's going to be harder....
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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>
>
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