NO. Considering CCDP is the highest level design cert Cisco offers, I don't
think it's tacky at all. For that matter, anyone who is CCIE and CCDP and
doesn't put DP after the IE is a fool. Keep in mind CCIE is the "highest
level cert" for SUPPORT, not design! Also, since people can get CCIE
without having to do CCNP, it never hurts to show someone that you got the
NP as well.
Mike W.
"Dennis H" wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Claude,
>
> Don't you think it's a little tacky to put CCDP and CCNP after CCIE? The
> fact that you're CCIE should demonstrate you're ABOVE NP/DP level, no?
>
> Dennis
>
>
> ""Claude-Vincent"" wrote in message
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > I agree with you, guys. In my case, I am working on
> > writing proposals, designing networks etc. as you said
> > and the network implementation is done by the service
> > department. Fortunately my company is a training Gold
> > partner so I can still play with all I want at any
> > time.
> >
> > Claude-Vincent
> > CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
> >
> > --- nrf wrote:
> > > I first have to say that I agree with you in that I
> > > find very few CCIE's
> > > actually performing gritty hands-on work. So then
> > > you are probably
> > > wondering what is the whole point of working on your
> > > configuration and
> > > troubleshooting skills to become a CCIE, only to
> > > then become shunted into a
> > > position where those skills are rarely used? I have
> > > also thought long and
> > > hard about this phenomena.
> > >
> > >
> > > OK, I'm going to open a can of worms here, and go
> > > off on a bit of a tangent,
> > > but just bear with me. I believe that criticisms of
> > > the utility of industry
> > > certifications could also be said about the college
> > > degree. Sure, CCIE's
> > > are routinely put into high-level positions that
> > > involve little of the
> > > hands-on configuring and troubleshooting that is the
> > > very heart of the CCIE.
> > > But as we all know, many companies have positions
> > > that require job
> > > candidates to have a degree, but few of those
> > > positions actually require
> > > the knowledge of the exact subjects people learn
> > > in college. Would-be
> > > flamers, hear me out.
> > >
> > > Consider the average bachelor's degree. If it is in
> > > the humanities, you
> > > spent quite a bit of time studying various authors
> > > or artists, writing
> > > papers on literary and artistic criticism (the who,
> > > the what and the why of
> > > the artist/author and his work) and being exposed
> > > to various cultural
> > > schools of thought. If it was in a social science,
> > > then you most likely
> > > studied a lot of socio/political/economic theory and
> > > their application. If
> > > you studied a science or engineering, then
> > > high-level calculus was the
> > > order of the day, in terms of expressing events in
> > > mathematical terms. If
> > > it was computer science, then a whole lot of
> > > abstract programming theory.
> > >
> > > But regardless of what you studied, I think it is
> > > universally true that
> > > college graduates with whatever degree then plunge
> > > into their careers and
> > > rarely use the actual skills that they picked up in
> > > college. Barring those
> > > who have entered academia, how many times does the
> > > typical grad with an
> > > English degree get the opportunity to do an literary
> > > analysis of Elizabeth
> > > vs. Victorian poetry? How many real-world graduates
> > > of economics, in their
> > > day-to-day working life, actually have to whip out
> > > supply/demand curves and
> > > calculate marginal utility? Even the engineering
> > > graduates (historically
> > > one of the most applied of all the college
> > > subjects), how many times do they
> > > really have to derive out a 40-line thermodynamics
> > > multivariable calculus
> > > formula using just pencil and paper, and within 15
> > > minutes?
> > >
> > > Ah but, college administrators and the pundits of
> > > education will stress,
> > > what make the college experience so valuable is not
> > > the subject matter per
> > > se, but rather the base level disciplining and
> > > training of the mind that is
> > > the ultimate goal. It is not the memorization of
> > > the political theories of
> > > Plato that is important, rather it is the improved
> > > cultural exposure, the
> > > openness to different philosophies, and the ability
> > > to conceive of and
> > > defend a particular thought. It is not the ability
> > > to quickly derive and
> > > calculate the eigenvectors of a linear algebra
> > > matrix that is important,
> > > rather it is the improved grasp and understanding of
> > > abstract concepts that
> > > is the real prize. In short, you college grads
> > > are hired not for the
> > > precise subject matter that they studied, but
> > > because they have demonstrated
> > > enhanced thought processes and the ability to
> > > quickly learn whatever skills
> > > they need for their career.
> > >
> > > Having said that, I believe that the CCIE is
> > > evolving into a similar role.
> > > CCIE's are prized by employers not because they can
> > > type a config for and
> > > troubleshoot a OSPF NBMA frame-relay network without
> > > using subinterfaces and
> > > while still electing a DR/BDR in less than an hour,
> > > typing at 150
> > > words-per-minute. Rather they are prized because in
> > > the course of their
> > > study, they have substantially improved their
> > > knowledge of networking
> > > fundamentals and have developed a systematic and
> > > logical method of fixing
> > > problems.
> > >
> > > Now, some readers out there might take exception to
> > > the above paragraph and
> > > point out that there are some CCIE's who have
> > > developed more than a
> > > superficial knowledge of networking, and obtained
> > > their 4-digit-number just
> > > by memorizing a whole bunch of CCO configs. Of
> > > course I'm sure that has
> > > happened.
> > >
> > > Yet the same thing also happens with the college
> > > degree, but you hardly ever
> > > hear anybody complain about that. I think everybody
> > > college graduate has a
> > > story about somebody they knew who was admitted
> > > just because he could play
> > > a sport, or because Daddy donated a lot of money, or
> > > something like that.
> > > Then that person deliberately searched for and
> > > enrolled in the easiest
> > > possible subjects and undertook the easiest possible
> > > coursework (have you
> > > ever noticed how Division 1 college football and
> > > basketball players always
> > > seem to major in things like mass communications or
> > > hotel management?). But
> > > they graduate just like everybody else.
> > >
> > > And, on another tangent, I have noticed lots of
> > > people complain incessantly
> > > about the paper certificate - the paper MCSE, the
> > > paper CCNA, the paper
> > > ABCDEFG. Yet, it seems to me that there is also
> > > such a thing as a paper
> > > college degree, but nobody ever seems to complain
> > > about that.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ""NY50TT"" wrote in message
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > Well here's a thread certain to start a fire, but
> > > I thought I'd see what
> > > > would happen.
> > > >
> > > > Does the community feel that Cisco Certifications
> > > are still in demand in
> > > the
> > > > market place? Do they still get you through the
> > > door in anything?
> > > >
> > > > I have been in the IT field for the better part of
> > > 8 years. This year, I
> > > > will be pulling in about 5K short of 100K, and I
> > > have a very short list of
> > > > certifications which I rarely use in the network
> > > security and development
> > > > position I'm in. I work for a very large, if not
> > > the largest IT shop in
> > > the
> > > > world, and I am a little disoriented by what is
> > > seen as really important
> > > > inside this organization. I have some level of
> > > respect for this
> > > > organization because of it's sheer size and some
> > > of the industry giants
> > > and
> > > > experts I work on teams with. However it doesn't
> > > seem that certification
> > > > matters. All of the top tier architects, the
> > > "Gods" of the "Gods" are
> > > all
> > > > undoubtedly very good at what they do, and rumor
> > > has it they are paid
> > > > handsomely(much more than me), but a quick direct
> > > survey of these rather
> > > > humble people, and I find that they have just been
> > > around for forever and
> > > > seem to know near everything, especially about the
> > > business aspect of
> > > > things, but don't carry any certifications that
> > > some deem so important to
> > > > get(though I have no doubt they would pass if they
> > > were forced to take the
> > > > tests). Yet they are crucial to the organization,
> > > and would probably be
> > > > considered "lifers", meaning they would never
> > > leave the organization.
> > > >
> > > > So, as you may understand, seeing this every day,
> > > you might imagine why I
> > > am
> > > > so disillusioned and pose this question. If I
> > > don't see certifications
> > > > meaning anything inside the organization I'm part
> > > of right now, what do
> > > > others see certifications worth in their world,
> > > their work, their area?
> > > Is
> > > > the playing field different "on the outside"?
> > > Does organization size make
> > > > the difference? Do certifications matter more in
> > > an organization of 50 ,
> > > or
> > > > in one with 50 thousand people?
> > > >
> > > > I guess the other confusing aspect is that I use
> > > my skills diffrently now
> > > > than I did before. It used to matter that I could
> > > sit down on a bunch of
> > > > routers or switches and configure (provision them
> > > when they are not
> > > ciscos)
> > > > and make them do anything under the sun. Now
> > > that's considered a less
> > > > valuable "production" type work, and the
> > > design,testing, project
> > > management,
> > > > policy writting, and architecture work I do is for
> > > some reason considered
> > > > more important than all that "lesser", and once
> > > crucial "production" work?
> > > > Now I spend my days testing and designing new
> > > infrastructres, and once my
> > > > documentation and design is done and approved,
> > > people, they call them
> > > "I.T.
> > > > Specialists and "Junior Network Architects"
> > > sometimes getting paid a
> > > whole
> > > > lot less (almost half less) go out there and
> > > actually implement it
> > > > worldwide. Yes, I'm still called upon to analyize
> > > things when they go
> > > > wrong, and help out with the roll-outs, but
> > > somehow I pictured that I
> > > would
> > > > be touching more routers, not authoring documents
> > > of policy, design, and
> > > > architecture. (ok so maybe I'm having trouble
> > > adjusting, but I spent many
> > > > long nights study this sh** to be an expert at it,
> > > all the time
> > > envisioning
> > > > that I would be building and deploying networks,
> > > actually using this sh**,
> > > > to make a living, but what ended up happening is
> > > that I use maybe 20% of
> > > > that knowledge, and the rest of the stuff I
> > > actually get paid for has
> > > almost
> > > > nothing to do with any certification or education
> > > path)
> > > >
> > > > All the CCIE cisco certifications seem to be
> > > geared torwards doing this
> > > type
> > > > of "production" work, do CCIE's really use those
> > > skills in production once
> > > > they receive their CCIE? Do they even touch a
> > > router anymore?
> > > >
> > > > Here's why I ask this, the one CCIE I personally
> > > know, he's the CIO at the
> > > > site for the organization that I work for. He
> > > approves security policy
> > > for
> > > > the entire organization world wide, but it's
> > > probably been a long time
> > > since
> > > > he has even had to touch a router, switch, or
> > > firewall. (that's the job
> > > of
> > > > people like me, we go out, test the latest and
> > > greatest, create proposals,
> > > > and them submit them to him to get approved)
> > > (though I should probably
> > > ask
> > > > him on monday in passing, when the last time he
> > > sat at a console actually
> > > > was) I kid not, he is simply amazing, and he
> > > know's everything, and has
> > > this
> > > > scary guru type knowledge on networking and
> > > security, but I still hold
> > > that
> > > > I seriously doubt he uses any of the "production"
> > > type knowledge that the
> > > > cisco ccie lab tests for on a day-to-day basis.
> > > >
> > > > That all makes it seem, that the concepts and
> > > years of expereince mean
> > > more
> > > > than the actuall cert, in this organization, but I
> > > wonder it it's the same
> > > > everywhere else. Now, I'm sure that this CCIE has
> > > spent his years doing
> > > the
> > > > "production" work, but is the natural progression
> > > of things such that once
> > > > you get the high tier certifications, that you
> > > move on to upper
> > > management,
> > > > and the type of work you end up doing is less and
> > > less hands on techincal
> > > > and more and more business related?
> > > >
> > > > Another CCIE I've heard of, works in denver as a
> > > sales engineer for
> > > juniper
> > > > networks. In fact, juniper is one of the
> > > companies we are testing for
> > > > replacing some devices that aren't handling the
> > > load requierments of our
> > > > latest infrastructure(And I guess I'll probably
> > > end up working with this
> > > guy
> > > > when we get permission to actually talk to
> > > juniper). Here's this CCIE,
> > > > who's job is to tag along with salesmen of juniper
> > > equipment, and be there
> > > > to just dole out knowledge and insight on a
> > > perpective customer's needs,
> > > and
> > > > how juniper equipment can fit it, in a mostly
> > > cisco world. But the point
> > > > is, he too probably (and I guess) seldomly touches
> > > a router anymore.
> > > > Probably spends alot of time writting proposals,
> > > making drawings, and
> > > > looking at architectures and design than anything
> > > else.
> > > >
> > > > CCIE's are expensive to hire, I guess it makes
> > > sense to use them for the
> > > > most critical work, and leave the "grunt" work for
> > > other, less expensive
> > > > workers, but I guess my point is that the "grunt"
> > > work used to be fun
> > > > sometimes. When you get a CCIE or such, do you
> > > still get to play?
> > > >
> > > > Somehow I figured things would be different.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Claude-Vincent Perez
> > CCIE# 7419, CCDP, CCNP
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
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