On Tue, 2003-06-17 at 14:32, Michael Scherer wrote: > > > I don't like mandrakeclub much. > > > > But you like their money, right? Maybe you don't like your mother, > > but she gave birth to you, so you at least owe her a nod. > > Well, I don't think that Mandrakeclub give birth to Guillaume, so, I > don't realy see the point. If I wanted to start a flame wars, this > would be exactly the type of argument i would use. > Personal, without any link to the debat.
To make it crystal clear the point is that the money flow from the Mandrakeclub members is the most potent source of revenue that Mandrakesoft has, which I don't hesitate to reiterate even though I don't believe that you really don't see the point. > > Same goes > > for Mandrakeclub; these people paid money for a voice and votes so > > that they can have some input in the direction(s) that the Mandrake > > distro goes in; but more pointedly it is the most pristine source for > > Mandrakesoft revenue presently in existence. This attitude towards > > people who gratuitously give money in return for a promise to be > > recognized with their votes is exactly the problem that will be the > > downfall of the Mandrake distro if it happens. > > First, the problem is that some people are totaly disconnected from the > reality. > To give a example : > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=mandrake-cooker&m=105275177502616&w=2 > > People need to know what can be achieved and what cannot be. If you're trying to tell me that the cosmetics of a gtk interface can't be altered more towards what was voted on then I'm going to tell you that you're one of those people that's disconnected from the reality. > > Secund, IIRC, people votes are taken in account, for the cd 3, to give > a example. > They can also vote for RPMS. > > So, because a mandrake developper don't want to do exactly what _you_ > want, without any good argument, you say that they are not listening ? Well, you are doing nothing but proving the point that you are *not listening*, because the whole discussion has been about polls, and not me personally. As a matter of fact, in this thread I have not even spoken of a personal preference; which underscores the fact that you do not listen, even when the text is right in front of you in black and white. As far as the argument goes, it was discussed in the polls, which you haven't read cause you don't care to read. If the developers say they are not listening or that they are unaware of the user's wishes, then I certainly will believe that since it is commiserant with the reality I've seen in progress. GC has already stated as much and your attitude here does nothing to dispel what's already been said. > > The voters for Rpmdrake 1.4 were clearly and precisely stating their > > preference for the UI cosmetics. Yet the polls for both 9.0 and 9.1 > > were closed, even in the face of totally overwhelming and widespread > > public opinion FOR the old cosmetics/functionality. > > If asked, people would all like to have tax cut. So, public opion is not > always good. Yet tax cuts are better for everyone except those elitist beaurocrats and/or tyrants (such as Saddam Hussein) that get their coffers stuffed from the money taken from the citizens; and tax cuts stimulate the economy, as evidenced by current events in the US with the stock market, which is now out the roof. Tax money is the people's money, not the government's money; so if you treat it like it is the people's money, then the people will be the ones that benefit. Which allows both the government AND the people to benefit, as opposed to just the tyrants and beaurocrats benefiting. So once again you torpedo your own argument with a really self sacrificial anology. The public should be allowed to determine what is good for the public by majority vote, and it should not be determined by a group of elitists who never talk, interface, or desire to be with everyday users and most especially beginners. This is the reason that the Mandrakeclub polls exist. You have yet to justify why cosmetic issues voted on by paying Club members is irrevelant. > People who were asked are not the same that the one who discover a huge > and complicated program for the first time. > > I don't use rpmdrake, but I feel it is clearer. > > Now, if you want someting more feature full, I will package synaptics > once apt-get will compile on cooker. > Then, just vote for someone to backport it in 9.1. Listen, my main thing is the voters and the democratic process purchased by the voters. I appreciate your offers here, but I don't think the main danger is or ever has been finding enough fingers to plug the mud dam. The real problem is the setting of a bad precedent by not recognizing polls contributed to by paying voters! There is very clearly a horrid and illogical disconnect between developers responsible for creating the interface and the Club users describing the kind of interface that they want created. It is a dichotomy that must be fixed and thus my verbage on this subject. > > > Proposed implementations always sucked because they were based on > > > reverting to old rpmdrake with the clumsy complicated interface > > > with all features under the eyes, ending up with something too > > > complicated for beginners. > > > > The truth is that you have absolutely no idea WHAT beginners want > > simply because you have absolutely no discourse with them("it's > > marketing's job"), and what's more, you WANT NONE. > > His job is not to talk with customer, it is to code. So, this is useless > to start a troll about his personal opinion. > And, if you think that a begginner want to have a full featured > interface, then I think you have a problem. And I think that anyone that dictates what someone else wants before they even ask the person in question has an even bigger problem; further anyone who purposely ignores already stated preferences in favor of what they want is tyrannical, and therefore anathema and enemy to the democratic process. > > If you have no discourse with the beginner, then whence do you get > > your information? ESP? God? A god complex? > > For your information, mandrakesoft has a ergonomic team. > They are the people who decide the features to remove and to add. Then I think it is THEY who should have responded to the multitudinous bevy of rpmdrake comments on the Club forums and polls in the damn beginning. That's why they are there. Instead we have been met with nothing but dead static on this issue; wherefore we end up here, steeped in discontent and ill will. > You should ask to them why they did change. > And give them good argument, not a "it was better before", as we always > hear when anything change. These arguments were stated clearly in the poll discussions, which is the reason the polls have forums in the first place, in order that topics of change or creation can be justified and outlined and discussed. Did I see the term "ergonomics team" bandied about inside those forums, or for that matter any rpmdrake forums anywhere in the Club? Certainly not. Did I see any developers names, such as yours or GC's in the discussion? The latter question is laughable since GC doesn't like Mandrakeclub (even though he doesn't read it) and didn't even know the rpmdrake polls existed or what the users really wanted in the rpmdrake UI, even though rpmdrake is his job. This vote was page one news in both 9.0 and 9.1 polls; ignorance of it or it's importance is no excuse. > > The purpose of the voting forums is to get a quantifiable idea of > > what the paying members want, which is exactly what the Mandrake > > distro needs more than anything else right now. > > As stated before, the voters are listened. > You should understand that even if you pay, this doesn't give you all > right on the design of rpmdrake. > Of course, I was happy too with the old rpmdrake. > But, I know that it is too complex for beginners. And how do you know that, praytell? Have you for example conducted a poll?? Say maybe like the ones on the Club? Or do you conduct interviews with beginners or non-paying Mandrake users on a regular basis so that you can come back and tell the paying members how invalid the Club polls always were and how stupid the paying members requests are and were? --LX -- 같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같 Kernel 2.4.21-0.13mdk Linux Mandrake 9.1 Enlightenment-0.16.5-12mdk Evolution 1.2.4-1.1mdk Linux User #268899 http://counter.li.org/ 같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같같
