On Friday 10 February 2006 13:28, Sophie Gautier wrote: > Hi Ian, > > Ian Lynch wrote: > > [...] > > > Lists don't in general collect material, they discuss its > > collection. > > Well reading the list archives since 2003 don't give me this > impression.
Heh, This may be the case but, they're certainly not designed to make it easily available to the casual user. > >If you have sources of information, let's discuss them and how we > > might make them available. We don't need to fork the project to do > > that. > > This is not a fork, as you will see it's another project that is not > grown for marketing OOo. I must admit it sounds like it to me. But if you'll excuse my presumption, it seems to me you're going about it the wrong way. I like the idea of having an Education Project separate from marketing. But as we have noted in the past Marketing in the Education field is a different ballgame to marketing to the corporate market. Marketing to schools should actually be a sub-project of an Education Project because pedagogical criteria are always going to influence that marketing effort. > > I have absolutely no problem with anyone with access rights to the > > main web site putting in any education links or create any pages > > they think should be there. After all I advocate Wikis so why would > > I be concerned about anyone adding to the education pages? > > I think that shouldn't be there. Education pages are pages. > [...] > > > I'm proposing we consider making the education project as it exists > > now into a new project, incubator if necessary but that we don't > > have two projects that have essentially the same aims even if each > > have some different content. > > But currently there is no education project. If I go to the project > list in incubator, I can't see any subproject of marketing like they > are listing on distribution for example. Then take the Whole non-project out from under the Marketing Umbrella. If you have the ability to manage the pages, which I suppose would be education.openoffice.org, then great. As Ian has said that's not his field > > [...] > > > Its also done in many other countries by many other systems. I have > > been travelling around the world a lot in the last two years to get > > more information about this. Currently there is no international > > standard and AFAIK none that gives recognition specifically to > > participation in Open Source projects. There is nothing wrong with > > complementary national schemes, I have discussed this with for > > example, the government of Catalonia and we are in principle agreed > > to work for compatibility between their national scheme and the > > International one I proposed. The examination systems even within > > one country can be complex and there is no reason to exclude any of > > them. My point is that this aspect is central to the existing > > education project, we don't need to invent a new project to cover > > it. If people want to catalogue national examination options that > > are OOo compatible that would be a good sub-project. Currently if > > someone else wants to do it they need 3 things. The professional > > knowledge, time and ability to edit the main web site. A wiki at > > least removes one of those barriers. > > This is marketing OOo and this is absolutely not the topic of the > proposal I'll make. > > [...] > > > Ok so file some issues on this and cc them to this list, me or > > whatever. Again I can't see why the method of communication is > > relevant to the central issue of why we need 2 projects. > > An issue won't be enough, this is why I request a project to handle > all the tasks. And again, reading the archives of the list, I would > be off topic. > That's your opinion which I think is not the actuality. The Edu list is for discussing anything related to OOo and education. > > > No problem, and if we get wiki pages going we can easily make such > > links. As Alexandro said, I had a problem with maintaining the main > > site. If you want to put these links on the education pages of the > > main site please do, you have the access rights so just do it. If > > you think I'm not doing something I should be tell me and I'll try > > and put it right. > > I don't have the access rights to marketing, I'm not a marketing > developer. [...] I thought the idea was to take it out from under marketing. Do you have access rights on the main site. (By which I mean www.openoffice.org rather than marketing.openoffice.org) If so then lets do it. > > > But as a matter of courtesy I think an existing project lead should > > be informed before such a proposal. What if out of the blue I > > proposed a new XXXX project that already existed? How would that > > project lead feel? > > Sorry, but I can't see any existing education project by now. I know > that you're working hard on OOo distribution and adoption for schools > and governments. But as already written several time, this is not the > topic of the project, this is the same difference that exist between > marketing and development. It seems to me that everything you've told us about your proposal so far fits very well into the project as it is. I quote from the Project front page: "We welcome you into a community where teachers and students can learn about the new software development models of the 21st Century and support each other by *sharing free resources and ideas.* The best way to learn is to take part! (My emphasis) > [...] > > > So let's do it through the existing project and if necessary move > > it to its own pages outside the marketing umbrella. The issue is > > not who leads it but whether its good to have two projects. Best to > > have one I think and we have one that can simply move location. If > > anyone wants to take over as lead please feel free. I have plenty > > of other things to do. > > The existing pages for education are identify as marketing part. This > is why it is necessary to have a real education project that deal > with development and not marketing, this is two really different > tasks that can't work together, but side by side. As I stated earlier Marketing and Pedagogy must work together, subprojects of the Education Project. Neither can ignore the other. > > [...] > > > It might have been in your head for a long time but its certainly > > news to most people on this list! > > And I told you so when you write me in private about the education > project you wanted. > > [...] > > > I explained why I didn't do that and why I was giving this some new > > consideration given the situation with the Wiki. Since that > > situation is about a week old it just needed some thought and this > > is a really pressurised time for me with work :-(. If you had > > E-mailed me about what you were thinking perhaps this thread would > > have been unnecessary. > > The wiki is there for several month now, not a week. We are all under > pressure with work, OOo, family and so on. And I don't need to e-mail > privatly people when I'm in a project, I really avoid that and don't > like it. > My proposal will be public and any body is invited to talk about it > and participate. Sophie, before the beginning of this year you had posted only twice on the Education list, that hardly seems supportive. At no point have you come to the list offering pedagogical material to share with the community, other than a couple of links so I cannot see how you can say that what you propose doesn't belong within the project as it is. And don't say there isn't a project, thats just semantics, a situation forced on us by the technical restrictions of the medium. > > >> any case, there is no fight about that project. As already said > >> the only thing I want is to see a real education project in place > >> for OOo and not > >> something hide behind marketing because it really prevents some > >> people to join and there is no way to put references in place. > > > > I would agree entirely with that. In fact you are in a better > > position to put references into the main web site than I am. Please > > do it where you think it will help. I trust your judgement to do it > > well. > > The main web site, as you call it, is Marketing. What we have to > enlight, or discuss or point, again, has nothing to do with what is > currently on the page. No I think that what Ian is referring to is the MAIN website. www.openoffice.org home. > > >> A project of this kind should have it's own web space, imho only a > >> page on a wiki is not enough. > > > > No argument, I'm not saying we just need the wiki but I would like > > participation to be as accessible as possible. The Wiki approach to > > collaborative work has proved time and time again to be more > > productive. This is why to me the acceptance of Wikis by the > > project as a whole makes a big difference in the decision making > > about moving the education project out of marketing. I would expect > > the bulk of the information communication work to be done on the > > Wiki with CVS pages on the main web site. Its not an either or, its > > a both. > > May be I would like to see spip used too, but it's not depending on > me, but on the contributors will. What is spip? Sorry, non-geek educator here. :) > [...] > > >> Incubator projects are submitted on discuss@ list > >> http://www.openoffice.org/about_us/protocols_proposing.html. > > > > But not all people on this list will be subscribed to discuss and > > this issue is likely to be most relevant to people on this list who > > have demonstrated their interest in education. That's why it > > appears to me to be a bit of a rush. Best to consult those who have > > shown an interest ad done work on education first. > > Yes, may be, but the process is clear and I will respect it. > I'm always somewhat concerned when process is respected above people. It seems to me that there is no argument that the Education Project should come out from under the coattails of the Marketing project. There is certainly no argument that more pedagogical material and perhaps development of a education focussed OOo would be a excellent thing. Certainly I would like to see addons such as templates and such, lesson plans and course structures geared toward education users. But it seems to me that this sort of thing can already be a part of the project. Certainly splitting it in two would seem to be counter productive. An overarching Education project, with Marketing and Development as two parallel subprojects would seem to be a better compromise. Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder OpenOffice.org Marcon New Zealand [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
