Hi Graham,
Sorry, Short answer because this thread is taking to much time for me now.
Graham Lauder wrote:
On Friday 10 February 2006 13:28, Sophie Gautier wrote:
Hi Ian,
Ian Lynch wrote:
[...]
Lists don't in general collect material, they discuss its
collection.
Well reading the list archives since 2003 don't give me this
impression.
Heh, This may be the case but, they're certainly not designed to make it
easily available to the casual user.
The fact that nobody speaks about material here may have a reason.
If you have sources of information, let's discuss them and how we
might make them available. We don't need to fork the project to do
that.
This is not a fork, as you will see it's another project that is not
grown for marketing OOo.
I must admit it sounds like it to me. But if you'll excuse my
presumption, it seems to me you're going about it the wrong way. I
like the idea of having an Education Project separate from marketing.
But as we have noted in the past Marketing in the Education field is a
different ballgame to marketing to the corporate market. Marketing to
schools should actually be a sub-project of an Education Project
because pedagogical criteria are always going to influence that
marketing effort.
So let have the marketing/education project that make much more sense
than having it in education project and it already exist. So nobody will
be hurt by my proposal, and I won't destroy anything.
I have absolutely no problem with anyone with access rights to the
main web site putting in any education links or create any pages
they think should be there. After all I advocate Wikis so why would
I be concerned about anyone adding to the education pages?
I think that shouldn't be there. Education pages are pages.
[...]
I'm proposing we consider making the education project as it exists
now into a new project, incubator if necessary but that we don't
have two projects that have essentially the same aims even if each
have some different content.
But currently there is no education project. If I go to the project
list in incubator, I can't see any subproject of marketing like they
are listing on distribution for example.
Then take the Whole non-project out from under the Marketing Umbrella.
If you have the ability to manage the pages, which I suppose would be
education.openoffice.org, then great. As Ian has said that's not his
field
I don't have the ability to manage the pages.
[...]
Its also done in many other countries by many other systems. I have
been travelling around the world a lot in the last two years to get
more information about this. Currently there is no international
standard and AFAIK none that gives recognition specifically to
participation in Open Source projects. There is nothing wrong with
complementary national schemes, I have discussed this with for
example, the government of Catalonia and we are in principle agreed
to work for compatibility between their national scheme and the
International one I proposed. The examination systems even within
one country can be complex and there is no reason to exclude any of
them. My point is that this aspect is central to the existing
education project, we don't need to invent a new project to cover
it. If people want to catalogue national examination options that
are OOo compatible that would be a good sub-project. Currently if
someone else wants to do it they need 3 things. The professional
knowledge, time and ability to edit the main web site. A wiki at
least removes one of those barriers.
This is marketing OOo and this is absolutely not the topic of the
proposal I'll make.
[...]
Ok so file some issues on this and cc them to this list, me or
whatever. Again I can't see why the method of communication is
relevant to the central issue of why we need 2 projects.
An issue won't be enough, this is why I request a project to handle
all the tasks. And again, reading the archives of the list, I would
be off topic.
That's your opinion which I think is not the actuality. The Edu list is
for discussing anything related to OOo and education.
Why it doesn't happen so ? Because you don't need it, as Ian. This is
not in the interest of this list, that's all. Otherwise, there will be
at least some material in the Doc&Files part of the site, you don't need
access right here.
No problem, and if we get wiki pages going we can easily make such
links. As Alexandro said, I had a problem with maintaining the main
site. If you want to put these links on the education pages of the
main site please do, you have the access rights so just do it. If
you think I'm not doing something I should be tell me and I'll try
and put it right.
I don't have the access rights to marketing, I'm not a marketing
developer. [...]
I thought the idea was to take it out from under marketing. Do you have
access rights on the main site. (By which I mean www.openoffice.org
rather than marketing.openoffice.org) If so then lets do it.
No I don't have access right to the main site and to marketing. I'm not
a developer from marketing or main site.
But as a matter of courtesy I think an existing project lead should
be informed before such a proposal. What if out of the blue I
proposed a new XXXX project that already existed? How would that
project lead feel?
Sorry, but I can't see any existing education project by now. I know
that you're working hard on OOo distribution and adoption for schools
and governments. But as already written several time, this is not the
topic of the project, this is the same difference that exist between
marketing and development.
It seems to me that everything you've told us about your proposal so far
fits very well into the project as it is. I quote from the Project
front page:
"We welcome you into a community where teachers and students can learn
about the new software development models of the 21st Century and
support each other by *sharing free resources and ideas.* The best way
to learn is to take part! (My emphasis)
Yes, so the project is here since 2003, where are the resources ? Can
you point me to the messages or the material ?
[...]
So let's do it through the existing project and if necessary move
it to its own pages outside the marketing umbrella. The issue is
not who leads it but whether its good to have two projects. Best to
have one I think and we have one that can simply move location. If
anyone wants to take over as lead please feel free. I have plenty
of other things to do.
The existing pages for education are identify as marketing part. This
is why it is necessary to have a real education project that deal
with development and not marketing, this is two really different
tasks that can't work together, but side by side.
As I stated earlier Marketing and Pedagogy must work together,
subprojects of the Education Project. Neither can ignore the other.
Why not. But marketing is lead by Ian and here, it's up to him to decide
where he want his project be.
[...]
It might have been in your head for a long time but its certainly
news to most people on this list!
And I told you so when you write me in private about the education
project you wanted.
[...]
I explained why I didn't do that and why I was giving this some new
consideration given the situation with the Wiki. Since that
situation is about a week old it just needed some thought and this
is a really pressurised time for me with work :-(. If you had
E-mailed me about what you were thinking perhaps this thread would
have been unnecessary.
The wiki is there for several month now, not a week. We are all under
pressure with work, OOo, family and so on. And I don't need to e-mail
privatly people when I'm in a project, I really avoid that and don't
like it.
My proposal will be public and any body is invited to talk about it
and participate.
Sophie, before the beginning of this year you had posted only twice on
the Education list, that hardly seems supportive. At no point have you
come to the list offering pedagogical material to share with the
community, other than a couple of links so I cannot see how you can say
that what you propose doesn't belong within the project as it is. And
don't say there isn't a project, thats just semantics, a situation
forced on us by the technical restrictions of the medium.
Yes, you've noticed that marketing doesn't interest me. As nothing else
happen here (which is normal because it has been designed for that
topic) I have nothing to bring.
any case, there is no fight about that project. As already said
the only thing I want is to see a real education project in place
for OOo and not
something hide behind marketing because it really prevents some
people to join and there is no way to put references in place.
I would agree entirely with that. In fact you are in a better
position to put references into the main web site than I am. Please
do it where you think it will help. I trust your judgement to do it
well.
The main web site, as you call it, is Marketing. What we have to
enlight, or discuss or point, again, has nothing to do with what is
currently on the page.
No I think that what Ian is referring to is the MAIN website.
www.openoffice.org home.
same I don't have rights here.
A project of this kind should have it's own web space, imho only a
page on a wiki is not enough.
No argument, I'm not saying we just need the wiki but I would like
participation to be as accessible as possible. The Wiki approach to
collaborative work has proved time and time again to be more
productive. This is why to me the acceptance of Wikis by the
project as a whole makes a big difference in the decision making
about moving the education project out of marketing. I would expect
the bulk of the information communication work to be done on the
Wiki with CVS pages on the main web site. Its not an either or, its
a both.
May be I would like to see spip used too, but it's not depending on
me, but on the contributors will.
What is spip? Sorry, non-geek educator here. :)
http://www.spip.net/en
[...]
Incubator projects are submitted on discuss@ list
http://www.openoffice.org/about_us/protocols_proposing.html.
But not all people on this list will be subscribed to discuss and
this issue is likely to be most relevant to people on this list who
have demonstrated their interest in education. That's why it
appears to me to be a bit of a rush. Best to consult those who have
shown an interest ad done work on education first.
Yes, may be, but the process is clear and I will respect it.
I'm always somewhat concerned when process is respected above people.
It seems to me that there is no argument that the Education Project
should come out from under the coattails of the Marketing project.
There is certainly no argument that more pedagogical material and
perhaps development of a education focussed OOo would be a excellent
thing. Certainly I would like to see addons such as templates and
such, lesson plans and course structures geared toward education
users.
But it seems to me that this sort of thing can already be a part of the
project. Certainly splitting it in two would seem to be counter
productive. An overarching Education project, with Marketing and
Development as two parallel subprojects would seem to be a better
compromise.
I agree with you, but as said above, it's not up to me to decide that.
What I want to see achieve and is not here yet has nothing to do with
marketing, that's why I'm not proposing something that could hurt any
body : i.e. nobody is currently taking care of education that is not
marketing and I'm offering to do the work. That's all.
If nobody want that project to be put in place I won't do it. Let see
the vote.
Kind regards
Sophie
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