On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 00:25:55 -0400 Christopher Michael <cpmicha...@comcast.net> said:
> On 10/28/11 22:23, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > > On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 22:46:55 +0200 Cedric BAIL<cedric.b...@free.fr> said: > > > > i'll post here as a summary. what k-s wants is to just release e17-as is > > after fixing some efm bugs. who agrees with that? everything stays as-is. > > > Sorry, cannot say that I agree. While e17 may be Close to release, to > put it 'out' now is premature imo. There are still a few things that > need fixing and/or ironing out. > > > the reason xrandr is on the todo is that there are many complaints and > > questions about how to get multi screen to work and we have no solution. > > > > the reason taskbar is there is because engage is compositing based > > realistically and we have to work without, and we again have had enough > > users complain and ask for a way to switch tasks. > > > What about the taskbar module ? Anyone know it's current 'status' ? Is > it usable for the average person ? Are there some issues remaining ? Are > they simple bug fixes ?? I'd lean more toward including it (rather than > engage) for the simple fact that taskbar does not 'require' compositing, > and severs the purpose for the 'average joe'. i actually read its code - it's mostly ok, but it has lurking bugs like not reffing e border objects. i've already begun a new tb code in my e tree but i also need to revamp its horizontal (and vertical) layout as well as add a feature to gadcon to make it work sensibly and not make shelf expand beyond the bounds of the screen. i've already started here and my only goal is to make a workable taskbar that isnt going to fall over in cases and then move on. > > the reason efm is on the list is its mostly working and usable as a simple > > filemanager - that was its point. it needs some bugs fixed. > > > > the reason keymap config is there is for all those europeans (and a few > > others) with odd keymaps and people have no clue how to configure this on a > > command-line or in config files. the other todo items could get dropped, > > though theme does need to be polished. > > > > this wasnt unilaterally decided by me. i believe in making a good attempt > > at a quality release. gustavo just believes in dumping out whatever we have. > This is where gustavo and I disagree. I'm w/ you raster...would rather > have a quality product to release, rather than taking the > short/quick/easy way out and just 'release what we have'. If we take the > later route and just release things 'as they are', then we could end up > getting a reputation of premature release (gnome3, unity, and other such > junk)...which I (for one) would rather avoid. Better to take the extra > time and get things right. Oh I know I will get the "He's just in > raster's camp anyway" people/complaints...and I'm fine with that simply > because it's the right way to go about it. Why release something that is > incomplete/half-arsed ?? that's indeed my point - and we are so CLOSE to being "done". it's impatience at the last leg of the race. > dh > > > all the > > bitching about gnome and others will happen to us if we don't provide these > > basics that gnome etc. already DO. to many people we are useless. these are > > not new fangled ideas or standards - this is old hat that we haven't > > covered. so how do u expect to make those people happy and try or stay with > > e when we are not functional in some key aspects? > > > > get these above done and we can do an alpha. > > > >> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:19 PM, Mike Blumenkrantz<m...@zentific.com> > >> wrote: > >>> On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:07:45 -0200 > >>> Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri<barbi...@profusion.mobi> wrote: > >>>> I'm writing this mail so it's unified and everyone can opine without > >>>> being in one place at one time (IRC/#edevelop). > >>>> > >>>> Recently I've talked to people and while I tried to express it at IRC, > >>>> raster just got pissed and left. Later people would join and agree > >>>> with me... so while I'm looking like a jerk I guess I'm not alone in > >>>> there. I'll try to be as clear and short as possible. > >>>> > >>>> WHY RELEASE? > >>>> 1. to clarify we know some snapshot is usable. This will get us in > >>>> more distributions by default. > >>> good > >>>> 2. to remove that stupid karma over the 17 number if e. Will help > >>>> people that do not track us closely to know we're reasonable serious. > >>> people will probably still call it e17 even when we're on e20 > >>>> 3. we can start to bring in new technology without delaying it even > >>>> further (ie: elm and scripting language - js/elev8) > >>> not really a valid reason to release, you can see it did wonders for gnome > >> > >> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=gnome_survey_part1&num=1 > >> > >> I don't really see the link with what you are saying. > >> > >>>> WHY NOT RELEASE? > >>>> 1. there are both bugs (eg: efm) > >>> cedric has said a number of times that he'll be working on efm after he > >>> finishes emotion soon, and I'll likely disable eeze mounting entirely for > >>> the release since libmount is not widely deployed and I was unable to get > >>> widespread testing until now. > >>>> 2. missing features (xrandr, taskbar, ...) > >>> * xrandr patches have been made and are on the list waiting for testing > >>> and review, so I'm not really sure why this is a "missing" feature. > >>> * New users will not be able to deal with E17 if it doesn't have a > >>> taskbar, end of story. Engage is in SVN now, it's usable and widely used > >>> already, it can be merged. > >> > >> No you can't ! Doesn't solve the problem for non composite use case > >> and as long as we don't make the compositer the only possible choice > >> we can't say that engage is the answer to that problem. > >> > >>> * I don't care about keymap config since I'm american, but it seems > >>> important for users to be able to type in their own language > >>> * b&w is awful, we should switch to and iron out detourious for release > >> > >> Yes, that's something we should do as soon as possible. As a side > >> question, what is the status of that theme for elementary ? Because it > >> would make sense to also do the switch for elementary at some point. > >> > >>> * Improved connman support is a big sticking point for me. I strongly > >>> believe that if the module does not improve now while it is actually a > >>> blocker for release, it never will. To this end, it's missing 3 big > >>> features that I can see people using: hidden network support, static ip > >>> setting, and enterprise encryption. It's likely that this is not actually > >>> a 6 month project as you have implied. > >> > >> Well, I have been using connman module since now one year and there is > >> only one place in the world where I would have liked to have a UI to > >> set static IP and a VPN... I am sure that's raster is in that place > >> most of the time like some of our user base :-) So not a strong > >> requirement from my point of view, but maybe some people at Samsung > >> could take over that item as of course you are all using E17 ! > >> > >>>> EXTRA DISCUSSIONS > >>>> * e_widgets is amazingly boring and gets in the way, people expect > >>>> something like Elementary to help them. Or even better, for rarely > >>>> used features like a mixer control dialog, xrandr dialog, connection > >>>> manager configuration these things could be done with a high level > >>>> language such as elev8. Thus lots of people would be motivated to help > >>>> get more features in. But introducing this now would delay e17 even > >>>> more, thus a no go. (Personal note I'm highly demotivated to hack e17 > >>>> due this exact reason. Doing a mixer dialog in e_widget is like few > >>>> days, in elev8 it should take me few hours -- easier to find than few > >>>> days) > >>> No argument here, though I think it's more an issue that e_widgets lacks > >>> documentation. It works fine and is actually easier/faster to use than elm > >>> in a lot of cases once you get the hang of it. > >> > >> Well, I think we both are doing hugly UI, maybe we should not comment > >> on that part. > >> > >>>> * we'd like to have an officially supported and widely accepted > >>>> high level language. While I've created and maintained Python, seems > >>>> it's hatted and going nowhere. So if it's Python, Lua or JS it > >>>> doesn't matter, but we need one for most boring things like > >>>> configuration dialogs and non-critical paths... (READ: I don't want it > >>>> to be in composite manager, eborder, etc -- tho I'm open to have them > >>>> in gadcon) > >>> This is going to be a pain for those that don't know the scripting > >>> language chosen, but I suppose the onslaught of progress must not be > >>> stopped. > >> > >> You know what, you can code in JS like you do in C. You just need to > >> remove all that useless typing. So any one of us that know C, will be > >> able to understand and patch JS as soon as you use it. > >> > >>>> AFTER RELEASE: I propose time-based releases, every 3 months we cook a > >>>> snap and put it out. Seems to work well for everyone out there, can't > >>>> see why it wouldn't work. IMO we can't have feature based snaps > >>>> because we don't have enough manpower to do this promises. > >>>> Longer release cycles are problematic as "wait my nice feature to get > >>>> in, it's one more week! Otherwise I'll have to wait 6+ months to get > >>>> it in!" and then this repeats forever as we see now. > >>> reasonable > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> BUT USERS WILL COMPLAIN ABOUT MISSING FEATURES: common argument for > >>>> xrandr, keyboard languages, taskbar. Users will complain, period. > >>>> We'll never be able to cope with minimum features, as this changes > >>>> from person to person. Moreover, the more we wait, the more we have to > >>>> do. Right now all other desktops implement the new systray and > >>>> application menu protocols, really soon this will be "a bare minimum" > >>>> for some users. There is proper PulseAudio mixer. Proper > >>>> ConnMan/NetworkManager. Soon we'll have the user-session and seat > >>>> management that GNOME is doing with systemd... This list is lways > >>>> growing. But we're short on human resources. Having a release and > >>>> getting Elev8 into E would help bringing more people to help. > >>> If we cared about user opinions so much, we probably wouldn't be working > >>> on E17 at all anymore. As for new minimum features, let's be realistic: > >>> nobody is ever going to implement that stuff before E17 release even if > >>> it's a requirement. We got pulseaudio support (the newest "desktop" > >>> feature) because I had fun abusing the native protocol, and that's not > >>> even cutting edge. > >> > >> That's the point of increasing the size of our community, so that > >> people that think it's funny to implement that kind of stuff do it. > >> > >>>> MY PROPOSAL: just fix the remaining efm bugs and other outstanding > >>>> crashes and do a release as is. Remove the e17 karma and get back to > >>>> normal life, get e18, e19... and things go into them as fast as we > >>>> can. > >> > >>> End result: VETOED. > >>> The items in http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release were discussed > >>> and agreed upon for a reason. Your personal lack of desire to complete > >>> them should not influence the release date, and others are actively > >>> working on them. > >> > >> As stated in my previous mail, I am for jumping on releasing an alpha > >> as soon as we have our main bug gone and try to target to do that at > >> the same time as 1.1. It will just be a benefit, driving developer > >> attention and maybe gather some help to finish the last round of work. > >> Because face it, we have very few people motivated to fix the last > >> item right now. But we have people that would have been helping if a > >> few technological limitation where removed. So we need to shorten the > >> painful path as much as we can. > >> -- > >> Cedric BAIL > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The demand for IT networking professionals continues to grow, and the > >> demand for specialized networking skills is growing even more rapidly. > >> Take a complimentary Learning@Cisco Self-Assessment and learn > >> about Cisco certifications, training, and career opportunities. > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/cisco-dev2dev > >> _______________________________________________ > >> enlightenment-devel mailing list > >> enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook in minutes. 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