On Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:10:24 -0400 Youness Alaoui <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote:
> And I'm back! Been sick so haven't check my mails lately.. and I wanted to > answer this thread. I tried to answer only the important bits to avoid > making it super long to read/reply again. > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 12:59 AM, Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote: > > > On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 00:17:01 -0400 Youness Alaoui > > <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: > > > > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:42 PM, Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com > > >wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 17:15:56 -0400 Youness Alaoui > > > > <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: > > > > > > > > > Yeah yeah, you've made that pretty clear already, the thing is, we > > give > > > > > reasons why this would be better, but your only argument is "because > > I > > > > > don't want to" > > > > > > > > that list there on the release page was a result of a group of e devs > > > > getting > > > > together at cebit and refining the existing more vague list. it was not > > > > just > > > > me. i was there. > > > > > > > Alright, if that TODO was a group effort, then my apologies on the > > specific > > > parts where I stated "your todo". I'd like to point out though that when > > I > > > said that, I wasn't just referring to "you wrote it", but rather on "you > > > decided what to put in it, those who disagreed got ignored". You always > > > seem to have the final word, and that's why I consider it your todo. But > > > yes, I was not there, so I cannot know, so againt, just a hypothesis. > > > > actually others put things on that todo too - but yes i do act as final > > arbiter > > of it, but it most definitely was not entirely my todo just with others > > nodding > > their heads. yes - i did put a fair few items on that list. > > > Being the final arbiter is fine as long as you consider everyone's opinions. > > > > > > > > > how will it encourage people to not finish things? and what it will > > > > > achieve? well I thought it was pretty obvious, but since you need me > > to > > > > > spell it out for you : > > > > > - You need a feature freeze in svn before releasing > > > > > - You need to fix bugs between feature freeze and release > > > > > - You need an alpha release to get bugreports on what needs to be > > fixed > > > > > before the release. > > > > > > > > and yes i need to > > > > > > > Sorry, this seems unclear, "yes I need to"? what do you mean? yes you > > need > > > me to spell it out? or yes, you need those 3 things I listed == an alpha > > is > > > needed ? > > > > yes - need a freeze before release. yes need to fix bugs. but we have a > > mountain of bugreports ALREADY! have u looked in trac? check the active > > tickets. :) 250 or so of them. > > > Are they all valid? If not, maybe it needs some triaging, anyone taking > care of that? > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter that they are at the same time, what does matter > > is to > > > > > have a fixed date for it. I said at the same time as efl 1.1 because > > > > cedric > > > > > suggested that (at the conference). And this isn't a "sudden desire", > > > > it's > > > > > a desire that's been there for years, you just don't want to see it. > > You > > > > > need time to rest post efl 1.1 release, fine, but set a reasonable > > date. > > > > > > > > why does it have to BE A FIXED DATE? why do i have to repeat this > > question > > > > - > > > > what is so MAGIC about that date. i s > > > > > > > The date itself is not magic, we're not saying december 25th, or january > > > 1st, or whatever other 'special dates'. But what will A DATE create is a > > > deadline, and the deadline in itself will drive the development. Not > > > everyone works like that, for sure, but I believe that most people will > > get > > > more shit done if they have a deadline rather than "whenever you can". > > And > > > I've experienced this so many times.. no commits for 6 months on amsn, > > then > > > we say "we'll release next week, start building packages" then 100 or 200 > > > commits get sent in that single week (seriously). A deadline is a > > > > i've seen the reverse. deadlines come, deadlines go. no action. > > > sure, but the most 'popular' behavior is people work best under pressure > and deadlines help achieve that and get things done. > > > > > > > motivational factor and you don't seem to get it. But more than that, a > > > fixed date will force a release, and without that, it's like a "it will > > > never happen" kind of deal. Get it out, then concentrate on the next > > > release, then iterate. > > > > i can lie and invent dates and then keep rescheduling like most projects. i > > really hate doing that. when those todo things are done i feel confident > > calling an alpha and then maybe 4 weeks to beta (fix bugs). but that's > > assuming > > that todo is done (as i said - with the items for alpha - the worst of efm > > issues fixed like dnd, copy & paste, tasks (done now), keymap, xrandr). as > > of > > today we only have randr, keymap, efm - keymap has been promised by > > quaker66 > > now since march. randr i just patched into my e today for some testing and > > looking around. i have to move over to an intel laptop to do this as i need > > randr working. so we're ->||<- that close to doing exactly what people > > want - > > an alpha then release after bugs are fixed. > > > lol, that's not the point, for sure, if people know that the deadline can > be moved, the motivation is not the same as "sorry, too late". > Anyways, I think it's ok to stick to a TODO for an initial release, but I > personally don't think those items are that critical, just put enough time > for them to get fixed before release, but after release, it is important to > switch to a cyclic release with fixed dates. > > > > > > > > > you are tired of the rudeness? well sorry about that! And I'm also > > pretty > > > > > fucking tired of your condescending arrogant bullshit! Yeah yeah, > > I'm the > > > > > new guy, I'm just a user, I haven't contributed anything worthy, so I > > > > > should shut up, but you know what, I still have a voice, and I've > > heard > > > > so > > > > > many 'rumors' about you, but now I believe them after I've actually > > > > > experienced the rasterman ever since I joined. You talk in a > > > > condescending > > > > > manner, you are arrogant, and you piss pretty much everybody off, I > > don't > > > > > know how e17 lasted this long with you driving away everyone.. oh > > wait, > > > > > yeah, people did leave the team, and maybe if you weren't being the > > > > > dictator that you're trying to be, the community would be much much > > much > > > > > larger. > > > > > I have a lot of respect for your work, you definitely have a lot of > > > > skills > > > > > that very few people have, but this does not mean you can be a tyrant > > > > > dictator and do whatever you want, ignoring everyone's opinions. I > > > > > understand E is basically your baby, and for sure your word is > > important > > > > > but you need to listen to what people tell you and stop being so > > fucking > > > > > stubborn (and I'm not saying this just about this thread btw)! > > > > > While I'm on the subject, like what Gustavo said, someone emails and > > says > > > > > he wants to help with something and all you could answer him is that > > > > he'll > > > > > fail, how stupid is that? is that how you build a community ? you are > > > > > > > > if it's the website? then yes - i said that, as i've seen it happen > > before > > > > - > > > > several times. from memory he wanted to tear down the current site and > > > > rebuild > > > > and i said "don't do that - it will go like others - it'll end up half > > > > done and > > > > we have a half done site then others are left to pick up and fix > > again. do > > > > it > > > > in parallel and when it's ready, we can shift over". you are indeed > > new. > > > > you > > > > may think it's all roses. over the decade+ i have many times relied on > > > > people > > > > who said "i will do X". be that the website, or a piece of code, and > > > > countless > > > > times they vanish, never do it, do a tiny bit and give up, and then i, > > or > > > > others, are left holding the bag going "so.. where is it?". we were > > > > expecting > > > > it. it didn't happen. or the quality of what was done was so poor or > > > > half-done > > > > it was scrapped and redone. something like the website - i'm not going > > to > > > > have > > > > someone redo it live with the existing one torn down. > > > > > > > You're not the only project leader here, I've been leading the aMSN > > project > > > (which I know, is quite a lot smaller than what you guys are doing) and > > > I've dealt with the exact same situation, but I've never pushed away > > > people, it's about "being nice", there was even a guy with motivation but > > > who barely knew how to do a hello world, I encouraged him and helped him > > > and wrote 200 pages reviews for his 10 lines patches, then eventually, it > > > > i don't know - maybe you have spare time. i am in negative time land. i > > have > > zero left to spare. i barely get enough sleep - if it were not for > > weekends, i > > wouldn't. i am time poor. i dont have luxury like that. a half-done webiste > > thats then abandoned then causes me to use more time i didnt even have to > > begin > > with - so something else suffers (sleep, work, or other e development). i > > help > > out a bit where i can - but i wanted him to do his work in parallel > > without it > > affecting the main site until it's ready. > > > nope, I'm in negative time land too, I think most of us are. I think your > issue is that you should learn to delegate more, you can't do everything, > and delegating is a big part of leading a project. > I definitely agree on the site being done in parallel, I wouldn't disagree > on that, but I do disagree with the way you talk to people. It is usually > (from what I saw) condescending and demotivating. > > > > > > > > helped me and he's now part of the team and taking care of important > > > features. Also, it doesn't matter if it will fail, yes, you were > > > disappointed by 10 other guys, but this one guy that just came in, what > > did > > > he do ? he does deserve the same chance as the first guy, why let out > > "your > > > anger/frustration/deception" on him? I haven't seen that thread, so I > > don't > > > > in this you are right. i do sometimes snap and some unfortunate soul is > > just > > there ate the wrong time and they get the brunt of things. i really WISH > > others would actually take charge of things like this so i dont have to > > snap > > at people. i have to apologize - to an extent i'm snapping at you right > > now. > > though i really have held back. > > > hehe, I actually thought you handled my outburst pretty well and you > haven't snapped at me. You do snap sometimes, and the best thing to do in > those situations is to not answer.. a no reply is always better than a bad > reply. > > > > > > > > know what you said exactly, so obviously, I can't judge on how you said > > it, > > > but there is a way to talk to people to encourage them and to welcome > > them > > > into your community that I have not seen from you yet. > > > > well you haven't been here that long :) you'll have to wait. > > > > > > > poisoning it from the inside, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only > > one > > > > who > > > > > thinks that (I actually know I'm not), but I always speak my mind, > > I'm > > > > not > > > > > scared of you or scared of hurting your feelings, while I respect, I > > > > won't > > > > > hold out on my thoughts just out of that respect, so I don't know if > > > > others > > > > > here already told you what I've just said, or maybe they tried to be > > more > > > > > subtle about it and you didn't udnerstand it, or maybe they did and > > you > > > > > ignored it, or maybe they simply didn't out of fear/respect, or the > > usual > > > > > "oh he's like that, let him".. but I needed to get that off my chest. > > > > (and > > > > > yes, before I get flooded with responses, I'm not saying everyone > > here > > > > > would agree with what I said, but I know at least a few who would). > > > > > You say I'm being rude because I dare open my mouth without doing > > any of > > > > > the work you want.. well I've wanted to help, but everytime it seems > > I > > > > lose > > > > > > > > then you are doing what i already saw. you are wanting to have those > > who > > > > want > > > > to finish the todo list march to your tune of release, regardless of > > > > quality and > > > > completeness. all the people asking for release are all "demotivated" > > and > > > > "not > > > > helping". what makes me think they will help to fix bugs in alpha? or > > > > finish > > > > features during alpha? > > > > > > > > > > No, I don't, I don't want to force my view on you, just as much as I > > don't > > > want to have your view forced on us. This is a discussion thread, it is > > so > > > we can discuss and come to an understanding and what pissed me off is > > that > > > there was no discussion, only rejection. I also saw the IRC chat where > > > Gustavo was talking to you then you just said you're tired of this > > > discussion and you just left the channel, and left him talking to > > himself!! > > > That is incredibly rude and pisses off people and quite frankly, it > > drives > > > > i've been through it with him before. i get tired of going through it > > repeatedly. > > > I understand being tired of the subject, but the way you left was simply > rude, unprofessional and simply unacceptable. > > > > > > > people away. We want to discuss and you want "my way or the highway". As > > > for "regardless of quality and completeness", no, I never said that, I > > said > > > a release cycle must be created, Gustavo said "release as-is" and I said > > > no, I said to set a date, and work to finish the todo by that date, I > > never > > > said to throw it all out, I said to finish the todo by that date. What I > > > > well if that date rolls around and you have fixed 3 out or 200 bugs? do you > > release? > > > Yes, it's still a release with 3 bugfixes.. which I would then assume those > are 3 critical bugs, and it's best to release rather than have all distros > manually apply those patches. > And as I've been told numerous times "a release is free".. what is it that > you lose when you do a release, what's so important and critical about > having a release ? > > > > > did say that you don't seem to agree with is that if one of the todo > > items > > > can't be done by that time, then it is not critical, it's not a deal > > > breaker and we should continue with the release and just drop that > > feature > > > to the next release. As for quality, you'd still get one month after the > > > feature freeze to fix any pending bugs, knowing quite well that as is, > > svn > > > > i already compromised by chopping out 3 of 4 items. we only have 3 left now > > anyway. > > > again, it's not about making the todo smaller, it's about fixing the todo > "in time". > > > > > > > > > my motivation, I swear I could have started working on that TODO > > right > > > > now, > > > > > but every time I read an email from you, I get tired of that > > arrogance > > > > and > > > > > just want to say "fuck it".. If I ask something or suggest > > something, you > > > > > always answer like you're the all knowing God and I'm just a stupid > > > > little > > > > > ant, so yeah, I'm not going to code for you, I'm not going to boost > > your > > > > > > > > no - you're going to code because you want a release. but nothing you > > have > > > > said or done makes me think you'll want to do anything but want to > > tell me > > > > and > > > > others what to do without doing as well. i'm just sticking to the goals > > > > that > > > > were already written up and agreed on. > > > > > > > No, people work on what motivates them, they work on what they want. Sure > > > they want a release, but with the current situation, it seems like it > > will > > > never happen, so people don't invest time on something that may seem like > > > it won't exist. Having a release schedule, a date, makes it a reality. > > And > > > no, I don't want to tell you what to do, I want to share my thoughts with > > > you, have a discussion and maybe end up with something that will advance > > > the project. This isn't code, but it is still helping the project. Good > > > planning is a part of it. As for the code, like I said about 10 times > > now I > > > think : make the release a reality and the code will be written before > > the > > > deadline is reached, otherwise, there is no motivation to do it.. that's > > > just human nature. > > > > my experience says that this doesn't happen. well 90% of the time or so it > > doesn't. real life and work and other deadlines, exams etc. don't go get > > out of > > the way because i set a release date for e. people have their real life > > responsibilities and any open source stuff they do is almost always done in > > whatever spare time they may.. or may not find. > > > For some people, sure, and for sure you might get that 90% figure you gave > if you say "in 2 days, we release". but if you give it enough time (let's > say "in one month"), then that would not happen. > Yes, people have responsabilities, real life, lack of time, etc.. but > everyone has a few free minutes in their lives, and if people know there's > a hard deadline in a few weeks then today, even if tired, instead of > watching some movie, they will rather spend some of that time fixing what > they think is critical for the release. I have zero free time, but when > there is something urgent, I can suddenly make time for it, and I think > everyone is like that too. > > > > > > > > > ego by falling in line and following your orders, I'm not your stupid > > > > > little soldier who is braindead and needs your guidance in this > > world. > > > > > Maybe that's why people don't do any of the code you'd like them to > > do.. > > > > > And for your information, I'm not "not helping", you need to realize > > > > that I > > > > > am, by this very thread, by this very discussion, I am wasting my > > time to > > > > > share my thoughts and help the project in a way I feel is useful. If > > you > > > > > think that 'work' and 'help' can only be quantified by number of > > lines of > > > > > code written or number of TODO items fixed, then you're wrong. But > > then > > > > > again, of course, since you know everything and everyone's opinions > > are > > > > > just a big pile of crap, so sure, you ignore everything the others > > say, > > > > so > > > > > in the end, we're not helping. > > > > > I may be harsh in what I just said, but I'm not politician, I'm not > > gonna > > > > > sugarcoat it, especially since yourself don't even care enough to > > > > sugarcoat > > > > > whatever crap you say to others. > > > > > Oh, and you should probably read this, I think it's talking about > > you : > > > > > > > http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project > > > > > > > > you might want to look in the mirror once in a while. > > > > > > > I can't, it breaks everytime I try... > > > And yes, I know that I sounded like a jerk in that mail, and yes, I was > > > pissed, the difference between you and me (I believe) is that I react to > > > rude people by unleashing my inhibitions, while you seem to act like a > > jerk > > > for the start. > > > Like I said, I know it sounded harsh, but I believe you needed to hear it > > > like that. One of the devs told me "maybe he needs the electro shock > > > treatment to realize how he acts with others", and another told me "it > > was > > > violent, but true". > > > And I asked for their opinion before sending it, as I did not want to say > > > anything that was untrue (although truth here is subjective since it's > > > about how you appear to others with your actions), so I wanted > > confirmation > > > from devs who have worked with you for a longer time than me. > > > So yeah.. I don't think I need to look in the mirror because I know > > exactly > > > how much of a dick I sounded when I wrote that, but don't brush off what > > I > > > said so easily, because it doesn't look like you realize it when you are > > > being a dick. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > previous discussions) is to get a point across, the release is > > > > needed, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > most people think that there is no point in delaying it, but if > > > > you're > > > > > > too > > > > > > > stubborn on that, maybe that's the reason no release was ever > > made, > > > > not > > > > > > > about people not contributing (which btw, seeing how you > > sometimes > > > > answer > > > > > > > aggressively, it might actually have scared away contributors). > > > > > > > > > > > > check history before you speculate on it. there has always been a > > todo > > > > > > list - > > > > > > it has fluctuated over time but broadly has had all the same > > content. > > > > > > reality > > > > > > is that it isn't released because people were not helping to make > > it > > > > > > happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > let's just deal with the most recent stuff - the release wiki > > page. i > > > > > > suggest u > > > > > > check its history in trac. e17 release is awaiting that. yes - i > > veto > > > > the > > > > > > release until that is done. so hold all your arguments EXCEPT > > about the > > > > > > todo > > > > > > list itself. that means either do stuff or convince me to nuke it > > from > > > > the > > > > > > list. > > > > > > > > > > Why do you get to veto? Why isn't it a vote? We've given you valid > > > > reasons > > > > > to not do it that way, but you have no reasons to stick to the TODO > > other > > > > > than your veto and because you want it that way. > > > > > > > > 1. i get a veto because i started this project. i've given up countless > > > > tens of thousands of hours on it over the years. > > > > 2. that list was a result of the following people meeting and agreeing > > on > > > > that > > > > list at cebit. the guys at cebit were: me, tasn, discomfitor, > > jeffdameth, > > > > t_unix, seoz, hermet, stefan... and others from memory. > > > > > > > > you know why i'm annoyed? it is the "prague committee" that now > > wishes to > > > > assert dominance and dictate what will be done. if the members were > > going > > > > to do > > > > something to make it happen - i'd be listening. right now it's empty > > words > > > > - in > > > > fact it's all "i'm too demotivated to work on e so just do a release > > and > > > > maybe > > > > i'll think about working on it". > > > > > > > > > > 1. everybody recognizes your work, I even ackownledged E being your baby > > in > > > my previous monologue, and we all know how much time and effort you spent > > > on it. However, I don't agree that it gives you a veto. I've been project > > > leader and while I probably did 75% of the project (Boris, feel free to > > > contradict me if I'm wrong), I have still never ever forced my opinion on > > > others. I try to convince them by giving them logical reasons, if I can't > > > convince others, then maybe I'm wrong, if it's a matter of personal > > > opinion, then I start a poll where everyone's votes are equal (me, > > admins, > > > other devs and even users). The day you force your way is the day you > > > become a dictator, and that's the day you start putting the respect > > people > > > had for you in the balance and alienate people. > > > 2. alright, already discussed above. > > > > the kernel doesnt have a democracy. gtk doesn't either nor do the vast > > majority > > of projects. i gave logical reasons. i've given them repeatedly over the > > years. > > i've tried the "set dates" and watched it crumble as people don't do what > > they > > said they would by the given date. maybe i'm much more cautious or > > conservative > > than you but every cycle of discussion on this re-hashes all the same > > arguments. nothing actually changes in them. > > > Technically, there is no real democracy, but when you decide what YOU want, > regarless of what the majority wants, simply because you have the power to > take that decision, then you are alienating that majority. > > > > > > > There is no "prague community", this was discussed a few times before > > > prague, we just had a chance to discuss it live and figure out some of > > the > > > details when we were in prague.. it annoys you? ok! But what if you were > > > there? you would have listened and agreed? or you would have said "no, I > > > disagree, don't want to hear about it, I want it this way so it has to > > stay > > > this way, good bye" ? > > > > no - i would have said the first bit. that i disagree. as i've said here - > > randr, taskbar, blah blah are there for a reason. reasoning has been hashed > > over before. i'd change the topic or just go to bed. it was very late at > > night > > when that irc conversation happened and i was still at work still after > > 10pm > > and it takes me over an hour to get home.. when i can finally get dinner > > and i > > was not going to go into yet-another-debate. > > > > > About the rest of your paragraph, no, there is no "I'm too demotivated to > > > work on it, so just release".. there is a "I'm demotivated when I'm being > > > ridiculed by raster" (that's me saying it) and there's "we need a proper > > > release cycle, a release manager, a plan, dates, etc.." Cedric said you > > > tried to do a feature freeze before but it didn't work out because people > > > got stuff done and were tired of not being able to commit it.. then he > > said > > > the feature freeze was 4 months.. THAT is a problem.. it's too long for > > > sure.. if you had specific dates and a proper duration for the feature > > > freeze and proper branching, then it would have worked. > > > > aaaah they couldnt get things done... they were not working on the release. > > they wanted to go off and work on new features. see what i mean? > > > > > > > > > > to everyone debating e17 release - get off your butts and do > > the > > > > todo > > > > > > > > list. if > > > > > > > > you actually DID this... it'd have been done long ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Still missing the point, the TODO list is not the blocker, it > > seems > > > > to be > > > > > > > you and your decision. The release can be made now, the TODO > > list is > > > > > > > irrelevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > thats a load of horse dung. the TODO list is the list of things to > > do > > > > FOR a > > > > > > release. thus very simply - the release is blocked by the todo > > list. > > > > i'm > > > > > > sorry > > > > > > - i'm not in the school of thought that thinks u just crank out a > > > > release > > > > > > every > > > > > > N weeks/months just because a date rolls around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And you're too stubborn to understand that the release should NOT be > > > > > blocked by the todo list, and "that's a load of horse dung" is not a > > > > valid > > > > > reason.. and you not being in whatever school of thought is not a > > valid > > > > > reason either. > > > > > > > > so by your position - i could release e if date X rolled around and > > all it > > > > did > > > > was move windows. you couldn't close them resize them, raise or lower > > > > them... > > > > just move. just because that's all that was working by date X? > > > > > > > No, I am having this discussion with you now because E as it is now is > > more > > > than moving windows around. I definitely agree that there must be an > > > initial set of features, and I agree those in the TODO (some at least) > > are > > > important, what I disagree with is "let's do it.. whenever".. and all > > I've > > > been preaching is that those features WILL be fixed by date X (they have > > > to) and even if they are not, while they are important, they are not a > > deal > > > breaker. > > > > i consider them a deal breaker :( a right now i want to not talk dates > > until > > AFTER efl 1.1. those dates will depend on if that gets a delay in it or > > what > > people do manage to do between now and then with e17. if that todo list > > still > > is no further along, then the timeframe has to be longer, if it is, then > > shorter. > > > Alright, *that* in my opinion is an actual compromise of the subject > discussed here (well, on the point I am making). No problems, we can talk > dates after efl 1.1, I am fine with that :) > > > > > > > > > > > I tried to compromise, I tried to come up with a solution that > > would > > > > make > > > > > > > everyone happy but you simply ignored it. I didn't write a long > > > > email to > > > > > > > explain things just to have 99% of it ignored. > > > > > > > > > > > > the todo list already is a compromise. now the goal is to throw it > > out > > > > > > entirely > > > > > > (pretty much). that's not a compromise. nowhere near it. > > > > > > > > > > > the todo list is already a compromise? how is it a compromise? is it > > > > > because it represents what the almight Carsten feels should be done > > and > > > > he > > > > > has taken the time to write it up for us mere mortals instead of > > keeping > > > > > the thought of "God's plan is unknown to men" > > > > > > > > no - it's because it was a result of several people getting together > > and > > > > agreeing. what i've been doing is going through that list - in many > > cases > > > > doing > > > > things other people had on the todo list. yes - you're new and you > > have no > > > > clue > > > > about where that list came from and who put items onto it and why. > > that tod > > > > list before it hit the wiki had more items on it that i argued against > > > > with the > > > > people there, to keep the size down. > > > > > > > Oh ok, but then the todo list is a compromise on features, but we are > > > talking here about the release cycle/system/planning/whatever.. having a > > > todo list is good, having no plans other than "fix the todo" is not good. > > > > there i disagree - unless you have dedicated known resources to do the > > work, > > you have N work to do, with unknown resources. u can't calculate it. > > > You don't need to calculate anything, you decide a release every 3 months, > then you make one, if you have more resources, then the next release will > have more bugfixes/features, if you have less resources, then less > bugfixes/features. If you have to depend on a TODO list for every release > (other than the initial one), then you will end up with a project that > looks dead because it has no activity.. and yes, you may have 100 commits a > day, if you don't do a release, to the outside world, it looks like no > activity. Again, as I said above, a release is free, you don't have a > maximum number of releases you can do, so why make such a big deal about > doing a release. > I've had the same problem for years, and the aMSN project has suffered > greatly because of that, I've always had this idea of "a release must bring > something extraordinarly new", so we ended up with no releases for 2 or 3 > years, then you lose 50% of your users by that time and the other 50% are > all shocked "oh, I thought it was an abandoned project".. so.. abandoned > project = no new contributors.. and it becomes a vicious circle of not > enough resources to do the features you wanted for the next release. This > is where E is going, and I can clearly see it. You have the resources now, > you have the code, you just have to convince everybody else that the > project is alive and well, and doing frequent releases is the best way to > ensure that, even if it means a release with a single bugfix, it is still a > bugfix that people will enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Assign a release manager, set specific dates for feature freezes > > > > (which > > > > > > > would come with a release candidate) and specific dates for > > > > releases. Do > > > > > > an > > > > > > > alpha at the same time as the efl 1.1 (NO MATTER WHAT) and get > > that > > > > out > > > > > > of > > > > > > > the door, it's in 3 weeks? then you got 3 weeks to do these > > little > > > > new > > > > > > > features you want ('you' being anyone who wants to contribute of > > > > course), > > > > > > > > > > > > i'm 100% busy and solid with efl for these 3 weeks - so hell no. > > > > > > > > > > > so why did you previously say "in weeks" when it was said that > > they'd be > > > > > fixed in months? so that means it will still not be fixed in > > months... > > > > > > > > 8 weeks is weeks to me. 20 weeks is months. 3 weeks is weeks. 6 weeks > > is > > > > weeks. > > > > after efl 1.1 is done then we can focus on e17. > > > > > > > Ok, so it's between 3 weeks and 8 ? in that case, how about you set the > > > date to 8 weeks from now? I suggested at the same time as efl 1.1, you > > > disagreed and actually gave a reason as to why it won't work, and I > > agree, > > > so I asked for a later date, and you still refuse. Why not make it 8 > > weeks > > > from now ? Set the date, do your planning, then let the work begin. I > > > haven't seen any argumentation against doing that. > > > > ok 8 weeks. and that date can and will move. 8 weeks until ALPHA. beta and > > release are still undecided. u can just say 12 then 16 weeks. its all pie > > in > > the sky dates. if a date makes you happy - but you can bet that date as no > > teeth. nothing will enforce it. > > > euhh.. actually, this might have been a misunderstanding.. Alpha should > have been 4 years ago.. an alpha has the connotation of "this barely > works", but it's not the case.. a beta means "this works but is very > unstable"... although it can be also viewed as "this works, but has bugs > and we need you to figure them out". > I don't think you're there, I think you're way beyond that, which is why I > was saying before "a release candidate".. the term is much more appropriate > because its meaning is basically "this is what the release will be unless > we find some unexpected bugs".. and you can do an RC1, RC2, etc.. with > that, although I think you only need one RC before release (although I > might be wrong of course, it's a matter of choice to be honest). > You say 8 weeks, but then you destroy the whole idea with "it can and will > move" :) Like you said above, let's not talk dates until efl 1.1 is > released. so let's do that, let's keep it off the table for now, get efl > 1.1 out the door, then we can revisit the dates and set something up that > is actually doable. > > > > > > > > > > > > and you said youself it's a matter of weeks, so prove it. If it > > > > can't be > > > > > > > done in the next 3 weeks, then it will never be done. Then after > > > > that, > > > > > > you > > > > > > > got 1 month to iron out any bugs reported and make the whole > > > > (including > > > > > > the > > > > > > > new, somewhat buggy, features added right before the alpha > > release) > > > > thing > > > > > > > more stable, then release 1 month later! If there are still > > pending > > > > bugs > > > > > > by > > > > > > > that time, then too bad, you missed the window, next release will > > > > have > > > > > > > those bugs fixed. > > > > > > > > > > > > an e17 alpha comes out __AFTER__ efl 1.1 is out. date is not set > > yet. > > > > > > > > > > > I don't mind that, but the date must be set. > > > > > > > > jan 1 2020. happy? > > > > > > > That's more than weeks... > > > > hey - safety margin. even done consulting? you always over-estimate :) > > > lol, yes, I do consulting, that's my job.. over-estimate, yeah sure, but > with that much padding, you just might lose the contract :p > > > > > > > > > > > > fyi - that todo list was decided because those items were > > deemed > > > > TO be > > > > > > > > critical enough to stall a release. even YOU are crying out for > > > > > > multimon > > > > > > > > config! you don't even give a consistent stance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, they WERE deemed critical, now I think what is actually > > > > critical is > > > > > > to > > > > > > > have a release, it's time to revisit with the current situation > > what > > > > is > > > > > > > actually deemed critical. I gave my opinion above about them. > > > > > > > > > > > > i disagree. > > > > > > > > > > > great argumentation, thanks, now I understand better your reasons. > > > > > > > > your argument is about as good. those items are there BECAUSE PEOPLE > > KEEP > > > > ASKING. on irc, email. forums. etc. they want to know "how do i make > > my 2nd > > > > screen work in e?" "why doesn't it restore my resolution on login?" > > "how > > > > do i > > > > switch tasks?" (because they work by maximizing all windows all the > > time > > > > and > > > > thus can't find them without a taskbar), "my sound doesn't work - and > > the > > > > mixer > > > > doesn't help!" "how can i change my keyboard to russian?" etc. etc. > > etc. - > > > > repeatedly over the years. > > > > > > > Yes, people need it, yes people keep asking, I'm not saying people don't > > > need it, I'm saying that those who need it can wait for e 17.1 (which > > would > > > be released 3 months later)... and that is in the worst case scenario if > > > those features don't get in before the feature freeze (which I doubt > > would > > > happen). > > > > then we mostly alienate the non-eglish speaking crowd. hooray! :( > > > not necessarily, first, they can still use it (use setxkbmap on an xterm) > if they want to.. if not, they can wait 3 months for the next release (if > you say "someday we'll add it", then you will alienate them.. give them a > hard date when to expect their feature, then they will wait and be happy to > try it again next time).. but as is, you are alienating everyone with no > release. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for my consistency, no, I am consistent, while yes, I do want > > and > > > > need > > > > > > > multi monitor support, like I said, if it can't make it then too > > > > bad! I > > > > > > > prefer to see a release, to see exposure and to see the 90% of > > users > > > > who > > > > > > > may not need multimon support be happy to use E17, and the > > remaining > > > > 10% > > > > > > > also happy but somewhat annoyed and impatient to get the next > > release > > > > > > that > > > > > > > fixes their use cases. > > > > > > > > > > > > disagree. the reasons for needing this hasn't changed. > > > > > > > > > > > you have not given any argument against mine. > > > > > > > > history, experience. see above. multiple heads agreed. not just me. > > > > > > > > > > let me be very plain here. if the people insisting on a release in > > "1 > > > > > > month" (or whatever - given some short timeframe) regardless of > > > > features, > > > > > > todo > > > > > > list or quality are precisely the people NOT helping with the > > release. > > > > > > it's all > > > > > > armchair experts not pitching in. if you had been, if you did, the > > todo > > > > > > list > > > > > > would be long done by now and we'd have a release. if you help > > with the > > > > > > release > > > > > > then we will get what u want - a release in a short timeframe. > > > > > > > > > > > Oh you're very clear, we don't have a right to an opinion because our > > > > name > > > > > is not Carsten. And if we do have an opinion, then you don't want to > > hear > > > > > it because we're not slaves enough to listen to you and shut up when > > you > > > > > say something, and if we do contribute then it doesn't matter anyways > > > > > because we should be contributing to Carsten's vision and fixing his > > TODO > > > > > list. > > > > > Well, the "armchair expert" does not WANT to help out anymore. > > > > > > > > that todo list is the result of a lot of history - many people, wiki > > pages > > > > and > > > > more. for a long time there was no public todo list. people kept > > asking "so > > > > what can i help with?" "what will happen?" "can ewe have a roadmap?" > > so i > > > > started putting TODO files in svn - people didn't seem to look there, > > so it > > > > eventually migrated to the wiki page. in fact i think originally other > > > > people > > > > did most of that migration and they started adding items or changing > > the > > > > list. > > > > the current todo list is a refinement of a previous much much much > > longer > > > > one. > > > > > > > > http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release > > > > > > > > now why don't u check the history? > > > > > > > > http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release?action=history > > > > > > > > oh dear.. look... vincent torri started that page.. not me.. then > > cedric, > > > > mekius, even gustavo... and that's been going for 3 years now that > > release > > > > page. > > > > > > > Yes yes, it's always about the TODO list.. but why don't you see that > > > having an actual release plan does not conflict with you having a TODO > > list > > > ? And even if it was, things keep changing, why would you be religiously > > > following that list? You discussed it before and came to that list as the > > > conclusion, why can't we have a newer discussion now and determine if the > > > majority agrees on the critical level of the remaining items ? > > > > because it's so close to being done... just get it done. > > > > > > what we have here is group A in project trying to impose their will on > > > > group B. > > > > this is NOT JUST ME. history shows that, if you care to look. believe > > what > > > > you > > > > will though if you don't. what i'm doing is saying "no - group B > > doesn't > > > > tell > > > > group A what to do. group B has a goal - if they HELPED group A they > > would > > > > have > > > > their goal". what i do see is that group B so far hasn't made any > > willing > > > > moves > > > > to show that they do want to help make the release happen. i guess i > > should > > > > have just said nothing and ignored the whole thread as it's moot talk > > > > without > > > > people helping. > > > > > > > Oh God, that's where you got it all wrong.. THERE IS NO GROUPS! Why do > > you > > > have to see it as group A versus B, why is it group A forcing their views > > > on group B or vice versa? why would group A help group B? The way I see > > it > > > is that there are no groups, I only see one COMMUNITY! One single group > > of > > > people with similar minds and similar goals who are trying to discuss > > > better ways to further their common goal. But you want to see it as black > > > and white, a war (flamewar) where you must not waver against the attacker > > > of your ideology! > > > > that's not what's happening. its a sudden "we must release!!!!!!!!" influx > > from > > those in prague. what we need is to stop this flamefest and get back to > > making > > the release happen. i've now had enough of my day sucked into these emails > > : > > ( it's a holiday today so i was hoping to get stuff done on e17. got to > > review > > the randr stuff. > > > > > And you keep coming back to this "they don't help", don't you realize > > that > > > this specific discussion in itself is help ? Getting a good planning for > > > the release is important if it is to succeed. It's not just about code. > > As > > > for helping with the code itself, I don't know exactly who works on what, > > > but as far as I know, cedric and gustavo are helping with the E code > > > necessary for the release, no ? Isn't cedric the one who said that he'll > > be > > > fixing the EFM bugs from the TODO? > > > > yes - cedric did say he will... not being done yet. > > > > > And btw, ignoring the whole thread.. a great sign of respect, thanks! > > > > but i didn't. > > > > > > but it's moot talking about this. you've made your mind up already and > > > > since i > > > > won't accept your plans as-is without argument, i'm obviously arrogant. > > > > even > > > > when i said "we can probably drop the connman ui changes and do alpha > > when > > > > randr, taskbar, keymap and efm items are done". that's not a compromise > > > > even > > > > FURTHER? i dropped 3 out of 7 items for an alpha? so obviously i'm > > > > stubborn, > > > > arrogant and am not listening at all or compromising. dropping 40% of > > the > > > > work > > > > to try help an alpha come out sooner? maybe you're getting all worked > > up > > > > over > > > > simply not having your position adopted as-is. maybe you need to calm > > down > > > > and > > > > actually read what i wrote - i read what you wrote. i disagree on > > dropping > > > > everything (except efm). others disagreed back in march too when that > > todo > > > > list > > > > was re-hashed out based on the old one and the current state of e. > > > > > > > What? "you've made your mind up already"? Shouldn't I be the one to say > > > this? I'm open to discussion, since the start I'm asking you for actual > > > valid argumentation (other than "I don't like it").. > > > And no, you're not arrogant because you disagree with us, you're arrogant > > > because of the way you say that you disagree with us, and for a few other > > > things unrelated to this specific thread. > > > As for your compromise being dropping 40% of the todo, it just shows that > > > you still didn't get the subject at hand here. I don't care about the > > todo, > > > I care (in this thread anyways) about the release schedule, and like I > > said > > > above, nothing prevents the whole todo to be finished by then.. you say > > > it's ok to drop 3 out of 7.. ok good, then work on the top 4 items before > > > the feature freeze (well, on the new features, as the bug items like EFM > > > can be fixed between feature freeze and final release), but it's just > > about > > > priority, you get enough time, then you can do all 7, you needed more > > time, > > > then do the plan accordingly.. you could have said that all items can be > > > dropped or none could be dropped, it changes absolutely nothing as to the > > > current discussion (from my point of view anyways, maybe the others, like > > > Gustavo are even disagreeing with me on this). > > > And no, I'm getting all worked up on how you rejected the idea and most > > > importantly how you rejected the discussion of the idea. You keep coming > > > back to "we stick to the todo" or "you're not even helping" or "I veto > > it" > > > or whatever.. then what really ticked me off is that you then tell me > > that > > > I'm being rude for expressing my opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > you're really beginning to make this personal. > > > > > > > Nah, it's not, it's about the software, what was personal was me telling > > > you how you make me (and others) feel, not in the hope of pissing you > > off, > > > but in the hope of making you understand your actions, something you may > > > not even be aware of, with the purpose to create a more stable and more > > > peaceful community. So yeah, again, it comes back to "it's about the > > > software", nothing personal... > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > -------------- > > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > oh good, I thought this thread had died. time for more popcorn. -- Mike Blumenkrantz Zentific: Doctor recommended, mother approved. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ RSA(R) Conference 2012 Save $700 by Nov 18 Register now http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1 _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
