On Mon, Jul 8, 2024, 5:17 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> Brain doesn't exist. Then it exists as an object in consciousness, which is as much as exist would mean under idealism. Rather than say things don't exist, I think it would be better to redefine what is meant by existence. "Brain" is just an idea in consciousness. Sure, and all objects exist in the mind of God. So "exist" goes back to meaning what it has always meant, as Markus Mueller said (roughly): "A exists for B, when changing the state of A can change the state of B, and vice versa, under certain auxiliary conditions." See my papers, like "How Self-Reference Builds the World": > https://philpeople.org/profiles/cosmin-visan > I have, and replied with comments and questions. You, however, dismissed them as me not having read your paper. Have you seen my paper on how computational observers build the world? It reaches a similar conclusion to yours: https://philpeople.org/profiles/jason-k-resch Jason > On Monday 8 July 2024 at 23:35:12 UTC+3 Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024, 4:04 PM John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 2:12 PM Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> *>Consciousness is a prerequisite of intelligence.* >>>> >>> >>> I think you've got that backwards, intelligence is a prerequisite of >>> consciousness. And the possibility of intelligent ACTIONS is a >>> prerequisite for Darwinian natural selection to have evolved it. >>> >> >> I disagree, but will explain below. >> >> >>> >>>> *> One can be conscious without being intelligent,* >>>> >>> >>> Sure. >>> >> >> I define intelligence by something capable of intelligent action. >> >> Intelligent action requires non random choice: choice informed by >> information from the environment. >> >> Having information about the environment (i.e. perceptions) is >> consciousness. You cannot have perceptions without there being some process >> or thing to perceive them. >> >> Therefore perceptions (i.e. consciousness) is a requirement and >> precondition of being able to perform intelligent actions. >> >> Jason >> >> The Turing Test is not perfect, it has a lot of flaws, but it's all we've >>> got. If something passes the Turing Test then it's intelligent and >>> conscious, but if it fails the test then it may or may not be intelligent >>> and or conscious. >>> >>> *You need to have perceptions (of the environment, or the current >>>> situation) in order to act intelligently. * >>> >>> >>> For intelligence to have evolved, and we know for a fact that it has, >>> you not only need to be able to perceive the environment you also need >>> to be able to manipulate it. That's why zebras didn't evolve great >>> intelligence, they have no hands, so a brilliant zebra wouldn't have a >>> great advantage over a dumb zebra, in fact he'd probably be at a >>> disadvantage because a big brain is a great energy hog. >>> John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis >>> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis> >>> 339 >>> >>> 3b4 >>> >>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv2Zjakk5szeMFfZu%3DCYp3FzopZsOOMXW%2Bx7qPH9_pujfg%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv2Zjakk5szeMFfZu%3DCYp3FzopZsOOMXW%2Bx7qPH9_pujfg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5812f096-a4a9-4915-8fee-5b7c810d3609n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5812f096-a4a9-4915-8fee-5b7c810d3609n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUgXtOSSv21YbAvdzdbxSwwm-0vB8aM4gA4%3Dr87NdW0cnA%40mail.gmail.com.
