@Terren. The very fact that you just make it a word game proves that you are not conscious of consciousness. I can show you qualia, but you cannot show me flibber. Try again!
On Saturday, 11 January 2025 at 01:21:46 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: > I'll counter that with *my* proof that *flibber is the only thing that > exists*: > 1. Flibber = Blammo = Existence > 2. To Exist means to have Blammo (you are not aware of this) > 3. A Blammo is a Flibber (obviously) > 4. So how can something Exist if doesn't have any Blammo? > 5. And what is a Blammo if not a Flibber? > > It goes without saying then that anything that's not a Flibber does not > Exist. QED > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:52 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> @Terren. Is not a matter of proving. Is a matter of you becoming >> conscious of consciousness. As of yet, you have no idea what the word >> "qualia" means. If you would have known, you would have known that qualia = >> form = meaning = existence. You are not aware of the fact that to exist >> means to have form. And what a form is is a quality. How else can something >> exists if it doesn't have any form ? And what is a form if not a quality ? >> >> On Saturday, 11 January 2025 at 00:49:16 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >> >>> Try to keep up. You cannot prove that only qualia exists. All you've >>> offered so far is a tautology. >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:17 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> @Terren. So you say that I cannot prove that only existence exists ? >>>> Then what else exists ? Inexistence ? >>>> >>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 23:16:04 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not asking you to explain existence. I'm saying you cannot prove >>>>> your claim that the only thing that *can* exist is qualia. And you >>>>> cannot prove that with a tautology. But you knew that, right? >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:33 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @Terren. Not a truism. A tautology. 1=1. Of course. What else would >>>>>> you want? How do you expect to explain existence using something outside >>>>>> of >>>>>> itself ? Is illogical. Existence exists. 1=1. >>>>>> >>>>>> Quality = form = meaning. Quality looks the way it does because of >>>>>> the meaning that it does. And meaning is the way no-thing understands >>>>>> itself when it looks-back-at-itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 22:12:36 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So in short, your proof is: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. To exist means to have quality >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. Only qualia have quality >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Got it. One problem though - you don't define "quality". So your >>>>>>> proof is just a truism: "Qualia are all that exist because only qualia >>>>>>> exist". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You have to define "quality" in a way that does not invoke >>>>>>> "existence" or "qualia". Otherwise, your proof is something a sub-100 >>>>>>> IQ >>>>>>> person might come up with. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:44 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @Terren. Information doesn't exist. "Information" is just an idea >>>>>>>> in consciousness. >>>>>>>> Organ doesn't exist. "Organ" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>> Brain doesn't exist. "Brain" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>> Things don't exist. "Things" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>> See my other topic about PHYSICAL WOOOORLD EXIIIIISISISISTTTT!!!!! >>>>>>>> See it here for convenience: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE9a2h5ZRqA >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If qualia are about an ObJeCtIvE reality, what is the oBjEcTiVe >>>>>>>> reality that those qualia refer to ? Is it about: >>>>>>>> Bart Simpson bouncing? >>>>>>>> Rotating pirate ship? >>>>>>>> That isn't my receipt? >>>>>>>> Lobsters in motion? >>>>>>>> That is embarrassing? >>>>>>>> Lactates in pharmacy? >>>>>>>> Baptism piracy? >>>>>>>> That isn't mercy? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of course you can prove that qualia are all there is. >>>>>>>> Trolololololololololol. Big deal. Is the most trivial thing in the >>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>> Qualia are all that exists because "existence" is synonymous with >>>>>>>> "quality". To exist means to have quality. If you have no quality you >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> no form, as such you are no-thing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 50% of people are below 100. So 50% of population are >>>>>>>> scientifically proven retards. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 17:43:06 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As John Clark (a physicalist true believer) puts it, the brute >>>>>>>>> fact or assumption is that consciousness is how it feels when data is >>>>>>>>> processed. In this account, consciousness is the experience of >>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>> - the information from our sensory organs as it is processed in our >>>>>>>>> brains. >>>>>>>>> So if one accepts that theory of reality, qualia exist only as a >>>>>>>>> signal >>>>>>>>> that refers to things that exist independently of an individual's >>>>>>>>> consciousness. That's what makes it epistemological. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That version is not what I subscribe to, and I'm not trying to >>>>>>>>> convince you that's the correct account. I'm only saying, there's no >>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>> not even in principle, to prove that that's the Truth of what the >>>>>>>>> ultimate >>>>>>>>> ontology is. The same goes for your account, which is that >>>>>>>>> consciousness >>>>>>>>> and qualia are all that exists. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> PS. By definition, an IQ of 100 is the median. So "most people" >>>>>>>>> have an IQ right around 100. And I don't mean to suggest that because >>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>> people take the physicalist account, that makes it more likely to be >>>>>>>>> true. >>>>>>>>> I'm saying, if you're talking about your alternative, minority theory >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> reality as if it's fact, then that means you better be able to prove >>>>>>>>> it. *And >>>>>>>>> you can't* *- nobody can*, just as nobody can prove physicalism >>>>>>>>> is true. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:39 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> @Terren. How can qualia have epistemological status when it >>>>>>>>>> exists ? Exists = ontologic. You seem very confused regarding the >>>>>>>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>> of words. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also, "most people" have IQ below 100. This is close to >>>>>>>>>> monkey-level. How is that a criteria on which to decide truth ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also, define "energy"! Define "matter"! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 17:48:01 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In your theory, the quale has ontological status, ok. In >>>>>>>>>>> physicalism (what most people assume), qualia have epistemological >>>>>>>>>>> status. >>>>>>>>>>> IOW, qualia is a form of information about something that exists >>>>>>>>>>> independently of our individual consciousness. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In your theory, consciousness is the fundamental ontology. In >>>>>>>>>>> physicalism, matter & energy is the fundamental ontology. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Deciding what is the fundamental ontology is a metaphysical >>>>>>>>>>> decision. It's an assumption or belief from which other things >>>>>>>>>>> follow. But >>>>>>>>>>> the truth of what is the fundamental ontology cannot be proven. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 5:00 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. Yes. What do you mean by "thing" ? The chair that you >>>>>>>>>>>> see in front of you ? But that is just a quale in consciousness. >>>>>>>>>>>> So what do >>>>>>>>>>>> you mean by "thing" ? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 02:28:05 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 🙄 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 7:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. What thing ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 00:33:55 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would venture that the common sense notion of existence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means that a thing that exists has been instantiated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> >>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>> To view this discussion visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/910ad8a7-012b-42f0-9bf3-ab5dae87aecfn%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/910ad8a7-012b-42f0-9bf3-ab5dae87aecfn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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