Try to keep up. You cannot prove that only qualia exists. All you've offered so far is a tautology.
On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:17 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote: > @Terren. So you say that I cannot prove that only existence exists ? Then > what else exists ? Inexistence ? > > On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 23:16:04 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: > >> I'm not asking you to explain existence. I'm saying you cannot prove your >> claim that the only thing that *can* exist is qualia. And you cannot >> prove that with a tautology. But you knew that, right? >> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:33 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> @Terren. Not a truism. A tautology. 1=1. Of course. What else would you >>> want? How do you expect to explain existence using something outside of >>> itself ? Is illogical. Existence exists. 1=1. >>> >>> Quality = form = meaning. Quality looks the way it does because of the >>> meaning that it does. And meaning is the way no-thing understands itself >>> when it looks-back-at-itself. >>> >>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 22:12:36 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> So in short, your proof is: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. To exist means to have quality >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. Only qualia have quality >>>> >>>> Got it. One problem though - you don't define "quality". So your proof >>>> is just a truism: "Qualia are all that exist because only qualia exist". >>>> >>>> You have to define "quality" in a way that does not invoke "existence" >>>> or "qualia". Otherwise, your proof is something a sub-100 IQ person might >>>> come up with. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:44 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @Terren. Information doesn't exist. "Information" is just an idea in >>>>> consciousness. >>>>> Organ doesn't exist. "Organ" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>> Brain doesn't exist. "Brain" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>> Things don't exist. "Things" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>> See my other topic about PHYSICAL WOOOORLD EXIIIIISISISISTTTT!!!!! See >>>>> it here for convenience: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE9a2h5ZRqA >>>>> >>>>> If qualia are about an ObJeCtIvE reality, what is the oBjEcTiVe >>>>> reality that those qualia refer to ? Is it about: >>>>> Bart Simpson bouncing? >>>>> Rotating pirate ship? >>>>> That isn't my receipt? >>>>> Lobsters in motion? >>>>> That is embarrassing? >>>>> Lactates in pharmacy? >>>>> Baptism piracy? >>>>> That isn't mercy? >>>>> >>>>> Of course you can prove that qualia are all there is. >>>>> Trolololololololololol. Big deal. Is the most trivial thing in the world. >>>>> Qualia are all that exists because "existence" is synonymous with >>>>> "quality". To exist means to have quality. If you have no quality you have >>>>> no form, as such you are no-thing. >>>>> >>>>> 50% of people are below 100. So 50% of population are scientifically >>>>> proven retards. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 17:43:06 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As John Clark (a physicalist true believer) puts it, the brute fact >>>>>> or assumption is that consciousness is how it feels when data is >>>>>> processed. >>>>>> In this account, consciousness is the experience of information - the >>>>>> information from our sensory organs as it is processed in our brains. So >>>>>> if >>>>>> one accepts that theory of reality, qualia exist only as a signal that >>>>>> refers to things that exist independently of an individual's >>>>>> consciousness. >>>>>> That's what makes it epistemological. >>>>>> >>>>>> That version is not what I subscribe to, and I'm not trying to >>>>>> convince you that's the correct account. I'm only saying, there's no way, >>>>>> not even in principle, to prove that that's the Truth of what the >>>>>> ultimate >>>>>> ontology is. The same goes for your account, which is that consciousness >>>>>> and qualia are all that exists. >>>>>> >>>>>> PS. By definition, an IQ of 100 is the median. So "most people" have >>>>>> an IQ right around 100. And I don't mean to suggest that because most >>>>>> people take the physicalist account, that makes it more likely to be >>>>>> true. >>>>>> I'm saying, if you're talking about your alternative, minority theory of >>>>>> reality as if it's fact, then that means you better be able to prove it. >>>>>> *And >>>>>> you can't* *- nobody can*, just as nobody can prove physicalism is >>>>>> true. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:39 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> @Terren. How can qualia have epistemological status when it exists ? >>>>>>> Exists = ontologic. You seem very confused regarding the meaning of >>>>>>> words. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, "most people" have IQ below 100. This is close to >>>>>>> monkey-level. How is that a criteria on which to decide truth ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, define "energy"! Define "matter"! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 17:48:01 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In your theory, the quale has ontological status, ok. In >>>>>>>> physicalism (what most people assume), qualia have epistemological >>>>>>>> status. >>>>>>>> IOW, qualia is a form of information about something that exists >>>>>>>> independently of our individual consciousness. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In your theory, consciousness is the fundamental ontology. In >>>>>>>> physicalism, matter & energy is the fundamental ontology. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Deciding what is the fundamental ontology is a metaphysical >>>>>>>> decision. It's an assumption or belief from which other things follow. >>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>> the truth of what is the fundamental ontology cannot be proven. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 5:00 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> @Terren. Yes. What do you mean by "thing" ? The chair that you see >>>>>>>>> in front of you ? But that is just a quale in consciousness. So what >>>>>>>>> do you >>>>>>>>> mean by "thing" ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 02:28:05 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 🙄 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 7:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List >>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. What thing ? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 00:33:55 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I would venture that the common sense notion of existence means >>>>>>>>>>>> that a thing that exists has been instantiated. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> >> To view this discussion visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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