Lol. On Sunday, 12 January 2025 at 07:56:04 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote:
> Oh, I can show you flibber. > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 6:52 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> @Terren. The very fact that you just make it a word game proves that you >> are not conscious of consciousness. I can show you qualia, but you cannot >> show me flibber. Try again! >> >> On Saturday, 11 January 2025 at 01:21:46 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >> >>> I'll counter that with *my* proof that *flibber is the only thing that >>> exists*: >>> 1. Flibber = Blammo = Existence >>> 2. To Exist means to have Blammo (you are not aware of this) >>> 3. A Blammo is a Flibber (obviously) >>> 4. So how can something Exist if doesn't have any Blammo? >>> 5. And what is a Blammo if not a Flibber? >>> >>> It goes without saying then that anything that's not a Flibber does not >>> Exist. QED >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:52 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> @Terren. Is not a matter of proving. Is a matter of you becoming >>>> conscious of consciousness. As of yet, you have no idea what the word >>>> "qualia" means. If you would have known, you would have known that qualia >>>> = >>>> form = meaning = existence. You are not aware of the fact that to exist >>>> means to have form. And what a form is is a quality. How else can >>>> something >>>> exists if it doesn't have any form ? And what is a form if not a quality ? >>>> >>>> On Saturday, 11 January 2025 at 00:49:16 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>> >>>>> Try to keep up. You cannot prove that only qualia exists. All you've >>>>> offered so far is a tautology. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:17 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @Terren. So you say that I cannot prove that only existence exists ? >>>>>> Then what else exists ? Inexistence ? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 23:16:04 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not asking you to explain existence. I'm saying you cannot prove >>>>>>> your claim that the only thing that *can* exist is qualia. And you >>>>>>> cannot prove that with a tautology. But you knew that, right? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:33 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @Terren. Not a truism. A tautology. 1=1. Of course. What else would >>>>>>>> you want? How do you expect to explain existence using something >>>>>>>> outside of >>>>>>>> itself ? Is illogical. Existence exists. 1=1. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Quality = form = meaning. Quality looks the way it does because of >>>>>>>> the meaning that it does. And meaning is the way no-thing understands >>>>>>>> itself when it looks-back-at-itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 22:12:36 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So in short, your proof is: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1. To exist means to have quality >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1. Only qualia have quality >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Got it. One problem though - you don't define "quality". So your >>>>>>>>> proof is just a truism: "Qualia are all that exist because only >>>>>>>>> qualia >>>>>>>>> exist". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You have to define "quality" in a way that does not invoke >>>>>>>>> "existence" or "qualia". Otherwise, your proof is something a sub-100 >>>>>>>>> IQ >>>>>>>>> person might come up with. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:44 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> @Terren. Information doesn't exist. "Information" is just an idea >>>>>>>>>> in consciousness. >>>>>>>>>> Organ doesn't exist. "Organ" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>>>> Brain doesn't exist. "Brain" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>>>> Things don't exist. "Things" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>>>> See my other topic about PHYSICAL WOOOORLD >>>>>>>>>> EXIIIIISISISISTTTT!!!!! See it here for convenience: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE9a2h5ZRqA >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If qualia are about an ObJeCtIvE reality, what is the oBjEcTiVe >>>>>>>>>> reality that those qualia refer to ? Is it about: >>>>>>>>>> Bart Simpson bouncing? >>>>>>>>>> Rotating pirate ship? >>>>>>>>>> That isn't my receipt? >>>>>>>>>> Lobsters in motion? >>>>>>>>>> That is embarrassing? >>>>>>>>>> Lactates in pharmacy? >>>>>>>>>> Baptism piracy? >>>>>>>>>> That isn't mercy? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course you can prove that qualia are all there is. >>>>>>>>>> Trolololololololololol. Big deal. Is the most trivial thing in the >>>>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>>>> Qualia are all that exists because "existence" is synonymous with >>>>>>>>>> "quality". To exist means to have quality. If you have no quality >>>>>>>>>> you have >>>>>>>>>> no form, as such you are no-thing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 50% of people are below 100. So 50% of population are >>>>>>>>>> scientifically proven retards. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 17:43:06 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As John Clark (a physicalist true believer) puts it, the brute >>>>>>>>>>> fact or assumption is that consciousness is how it feels when data >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> processed. In this account, consciousness is the experience of >>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>> - the information from our sensory organs as it is processed in our >>>>>>>>>>> brains. >>>>>>>>>>> So if one accepts that theory of reality, qualia exist only as a >>>>>>>>>>> signal >>>>>>>>>>> that refers to things that exist independently of an individual's >>>>>>>>>>> consciousness. That's what makes it epistemological. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That version is not what I subscribe to, and I'm not trying to >>>>>>>>>>> convince you that's the correct account. I'm only saying, there's >>>>>>>>>>> no way, >>>>>>>>>>> not even in principle, to prove that that's the Truth of what the >>>>>>>>>>> ultimate >>>>>>>>>>> ontology is. The same goes for your account, which is that >>>>>>>>>>> consciousness >>>>>>>>>>> and qualia are all that exists. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> PS. By definition, an IQ of 100 is the median. So "most people" >>>>>>>>>>> have an IQ right around 100. And I don't mean to suggest that >>>>>>>>>>> because most >>>>>>>>>>> people take the physicalist account, that makes it more likely to >>>>>>>>>>> be true. >>>>>>>>>>> I'm saying, if you're talking about your alternative, minority >>>>>>>>>>> theory of >>>>>>>>>>> reality as if it's fact, then that means you better be able to >>>>>>>>>>> prove it. *And >>>>>>>>>>> you can't* *- nobody can*, just as nobody can prove physicalism >>>>>>>>>>> is true. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:39 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. How can qualia have epistemological status when it >>>>>>>>>>>> exists ? Exists = ontologic. You seem very confused regarding the >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>>>> of words. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, "most people" have IQ below 100. This is close to >>>>>>>>>>>> monkey-level. How is that a criteria on which to decide truth ? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, define "energy"! Define "matter"! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 17:48:01 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In your theory, the quale has ontological status, ok. In >>>>>>>>>>>>> physicalism (what most people assume), qualia have >>>>>>>>>>>>> epistemological status. >>>>>>>>>>>>> IOW, qualia is a form of information about something that exists >>>>>>>>>>>>> independently of our individual consciousness. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In your theory, consciousness is the fundamental ontology. In >>>>>>>>>>>>> physicalism, matter & energy is the fundamental ontology. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Deciding what is the fundamental ontology is a metaphysical >>>>>>>>>>>>> decision. It's an assumption or belief from which other things >>>>>>>>>>>>> follow. But >>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of what is the fundamental ontology cannot be proven. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 5:00 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. Yes. What do you mean by "thing" ? The chair that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you see in front of you ? But that is just a quale in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness. So >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what do you mean by "thing" ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 02:28:05 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 🙄 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 7:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. What thing ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 00:33:55 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would venture that the common sense notion of existence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means that a thing that exists has been instantiated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> >>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>> To view this discussion visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/910ad8a7-012b-42f0-9bf3-ab5dae87aecfn%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/910ad8a7-012b-42f0-9bf3-ab5dae87aecfn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4f108bc5-a14f-4705-bf7d-26b062da6e90n%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4f108bc5-a14f-4705-bf7d-26b062da6e90n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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