@Terren. Is not a matter of proving. Is a matter of you becoming conscious of consciousness. As of yet, you have no idea what the word "qualia" means. If you would have known, you would have known that qualia = form = meaning = existence. You are not aware of the fact that to exist means to have form. And what a form is is a quality. How else can something exists if it doesn't have any form ? And what is a form if not a quality ?
On Saturday, 11 January 2025 at 00:49:16 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: > Try to keep up. You cannot prove that only qualia exists. All you've > offered so far is a tautology. > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:17 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> @Terren. So you say that I cannot prove that only existence exists ? Then >> what else exists ? Inexistence ? >> >> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 23:16:04 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >> >>> I'm not asking you to explain existence. I'm saying you cannot prove >>> your claim that the only thing that *can* exist is qualia. And you >>> cannot prove that with a tautology. But you knew that, right? >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:33 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> @Terren. Not a truism. A tautology. 1=1. Of course. What else would you >>>> want? How do you expect to explain existence using something outside of >>>> itself ? Is illogical. Existence exists. 1=1. >>>> >>>> Quality = form = meaning. Quality looks the way it does because of the >>>> meaning that it does. And meaning is the way no-thing understands itself >>>> when it looks-back-at-itself. >>>> >>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 22:12:36 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> So in short, your proof is: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1. To exist means to have quality >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1. Only qualia have quality >>>>> >>>>> Got it. One problem though - you don't define "quality". So your proof >>>>> is just a truism: "Qualia are all that exist because only qualia exist". >>>>> >>>>> You have to define "quality" in a way that does not invoke "existence" >>>>> or "qualia". Otherwise, your proof is something a sub-100 IQ person might >>>>> come up with. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:44 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @Terren. Information doesn't exist. "Information" is just an idea in >>>>>> consciousness. >>>>>> Organ doesn't exist. "Organ" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>> Brain doesn't exist. "Brain" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>> Things don't exist. "Things" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>> See my other topic about PHYSICAL WOOOORLD EXIIIIISISISISTTTT!!!!! >>>>>> See it here for convenience: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE9a2h5ZRqA >>>>>> >>>>>> If qualia are about an ObJeCtIvE reality, what is the oBjEcTiVe >>>>>> reality that those qualia refer to ? Is it about: >>>>>> Bart Simpson bouncing? >>>>>> Rotating pirate ship? >>>>>> That isn't my receipt? >>>>>> Lobsters in motion? >>>>>> That is embarrassing? >>>>>> Lactates in pharmacy? >>>>>> Baptism piracy? >>>>>> That isn't mercy? >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course you can prove that qualia are all there is. >>>>>> Trolololololololololol. Big deal. Is the most trivial thing in the >>>>>> world. >>>>>> Qualia are all that exists because "existence" is synonymous with >>>>>> "quality". To exist means to have quality. If you have no quality you >>>>>> have >>>>>> no form, as such you are no-thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> 50% of people are below 100. So 50% of population are scientifically >>>>>> proven retards. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 17:43:06 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> As John Clark (a physicalist true believer) puts it, the brute fact >>>>>>> or assumption is that consciousness is how it feels when data is >>>>>>> processed. >>>>>>> In this account, consciousness is the experience of information - the >>>>>>> information from our sensory organs as it is processed in our brains. >>>>>>> So if >>>>>>> one accepts that theory of reality, qualia exist only as a signal that >>>>>>> refers to things that exist independently of an individual's >>>>>>> consciousness. >>>>>>> That's what makes it epistemological. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That version is not what I subscribe to, and I'm not trying to >>>>>>> convince you that's the correct account. I'm only saying, there's no >>>>>>> way, >>>>>>> not even in principle, to prove that that's the Truth of what the >>>>>>> ultimate >>>>>>> ontology is. The same goes for your account, which is that >>>>>>> consciousness >>>>>>> and qualia are all that exists. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PS. By definition, an IQ of 100 is the median. So "most people" have >>>>>>> an IQ right around 100. And I don't mean to suggest that because most >>>>>>> people take the physicalist account, that makes it more likely to be >>>>>>> true. >>>>>>> I'm saying, if you're talking about your alternative, minority theory >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> reality as if it's fact, then that means you better be able to prove >>>>>>> it. *And >>>>>>> you can't* *- nobody can*, just as nobody can prove physicalism is >>>>>>> true. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:39 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @Terren. How can qualia have epistemological status when it exists >>>>>>>> ? Exists = ontologic. You seem very confused regarding the meaning of >>>>>>>> words. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, "most people" have IQ below 100. This is close to >>>>>>>> monkey-level. How is that a criteria on which to decide truth ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, define "energy"! Define "matter"! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 17:48:01 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In your theory, the quale has ontological status, ok. In >>>>>>>>> physicalism (what most people assume), qualia have epistemological >>>>>>>>> status. >>>>>>>>> IOW, qualia is a form of information about something that exists >>>>>>>>> independently of our individual consciousness. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In your theory, consciousness is the fundamental ontology. In >>>>>>>>> physicalism, matter & energy is the fundamental ontology. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Deciding what is the fundamental ontology is a metaphysical >>>>>>>>> decision. It's an assumption or belief from which other things >>>>>>>>> follow. But >>>>>>>>> the truth of what is the fundamental ontology cannot be proven. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 5:00 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> @Terren. Yes. What do you mean by "thing" ? The chair that you >>>>>>>>>> see in front of you ? But that is just a quale in consciousness. So >>>>>>>>>> what do >>>>>>>>>> you mean by "thing" ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 02:28:05 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 🙄 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 7:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. What thing ? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 00:33:55 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would venture that the common sense notion of existence >>>>>>>>>>>>> means that a thing that exists has been instantiated. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> >>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>> To view this discussion visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> > To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/910ad8a7-012b-42f0-9bf3-ab5dae87aecfn%40googlegroups.com.
