I'm not asking you to explain existence. I'm saying you cannot prove your claim that the only thing that *can* exist is qualia. And you cannot prove that with a tautology. But you knew that, right?
On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:33 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote: > @Terren. Not a truism. A tautology. 1=1. Of course. What else would you > want? How do you expect to explain existence using something outside of > itself ? Is illogical. Existence exists. 1=1. > > Quality = form = meaning. Quality looks the way it does because of the > meaning that it does. And meaning is the way no-thing understands itself > when it looks-back-at-itself. > > On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 22:12:36 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: > >> >> So in short, your proof is: >> >> >> >> 1. To exist means to have quality >> >> >> 1. Only qualia have quality >> >> Got it. One problem though - you don't define "quality". So your proof is >> just a truism: "Qualia are all that exist because only qualia exist". >> >> You have to define "quality" in a way that does not invoke "existence" or >> "qualia". Otherwise, your proof is something a sub-100 IQ person might come >> up with. >> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:44 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> @Terren. Information doesn't exist. "Information" is just an idea in >>> consciousness. >>> Organ doesn't exist. "Organ" is just an idea in consciousness. >>> Brain doesn't exist. "Brain" is just an idea in consciousness. >>> Things don't exist. "Things" is just an idea in consciousness. >>> See my other topic about PHYSICAL WOOOORLD EXIIIIISISISISTTTT!!!!! See >>> it here for convenience: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE9a2h5ZRqA >>> >>> If qualia are about an ObJeCtIvE reality, what is the oBjEcTiVe reality >>> that those qualia refer to ? Is it about: >>> Bart Simpson bouncing? >>> Rotating pirate ship? >>> That isn't my receipt? >>> Lobsters in motion? >>> That is embarrassing? >>> Lactates in pharmacy? >>> Baptism piracy? >>> That isn't mercy? >>> >>> Of course you can prove that qualia are all there is. >>> Trolololololololololol. Big deal. Is the most trivial thing in the world. >>> Qualia are all that exists because "existence" is synonymous with >>> "quality". To exist means to have quality. If you have no quality you have >>> no form, as such you are no-thing. >>> >>> 50% of people are below 100. So 50% of population are scientifically >>> proven retards. >>> >>> >>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 17:43:06 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>> >>>> As John Clark (a physicalist true believer) puts it, the brute fact or >>>> assumption is that consciousness is how it feels when data is processed. In >>>> this account, consciousness is the experience of information - the >>>> information from our sensory organs as it is processed in our brains. So if >>>> one accepts that theory of reality, qualia exist only as a signal that >>>> refers to things that exist independently of an individual's consciousness. >>>> That's what makes it epistemological. >>>> >>>> That version is not what I subscribe to, and I'm not trying to convince >>>> you that's the correct account. I'm only saying, there's no way, not even >>>> in principle, to prove that that's the Truth of what the ultimate ontology >>>> is. The same goes for your account, which is that consciousness and qualia >>>> are all that exists. >>>> >>>> PS. By definition, an IQ of 100 is the median. So "most people" have an >>>> IQ right around 100. And I don't mean to suggest that because most people >>>> take the physicalist account, that makes it more likely to be true. I'm >>>> saying, if you're talking about your alternative, minority theory of >>>> reality as if it's fact, then that means you better be able to prove it. >>>> *And >>>> you can't* *- nobody can*, just as nobody can prove physicalism is >>>> true. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:39 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @Terren. How can qualia have epistemological status when it exists ? >>>>> Exists = ontologic. You seem very confused regarding the meaning of words. >>>>> >>>>> Also, "most people" have IQ below 100. This is close to monkey-level. >>>>> How is that a criteria on which to decide truth ? >>>>> >>>>> Also, define "energy"! Define "matter"! >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 17:48:01 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> In your theory, the quale has ontological status, ok. In physicalism >>>>>> (what most people assume), qualia have epistemological status. IOW, >>>>>> qualia >>>>>> is a form of information about something that exists independently of our >>>>>> individual consciousness. >>>>>> >>>>>> In your theory, consciousness is the fundamental ontology. In >>>>>> physicalism, matter & energy is the fundamental ontology. >>>>>> >>>>>> Deciding what is the fundamental ontology is a metaphysical decision. >>>>>> It's an assumption or belief from which other things follow. But the >>>>>> truth >>>>>> of what is the fundamental ontology cannot be proven. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 5:00 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> @Terren. Yes. What do you mean by "thing" ? The chair that you see >>>>>>> in front of you ? But that is just a quale in consciousness. So what do >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> mean by "thing" ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 02:28:05 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 🙄 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 7:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> @Terren. What thing ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 00:33:55 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would venture that the common sense notion of existence means >>>>>>>>>> that a thing that exists has been instantiated. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> >> To view this discussion visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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