Oh, I can show you flibber. On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 6:52 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote:
> @Terren. The very fact that you just make it a word game proves that you > are not conscious of consciousness. I can show you qualia, but you cannot > show me flibber. Try again! > > On Saturday, 11 January 2025 at 01:21:46 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: > >> I'll counter that with *my* proof that *flibber is the only thing that >> exists*: >> 1. Flibber = Blammo = Existence >> 2. To Exist means to have Blammo (you are not aware of this) >> 3. A Blammo is a Flibber (obviously) >> 4. So how can something Exist if doesn't have any Blammo? >> 5. And what is a Blammo if not a Flibber? >> >> It goes without saying then that anything that's not a Flibber does not >> Exist. QED >> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:52 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> @Terren. Is not a matter of proving. Is a matter of you becoming >>> conscious of consciousness. As of yet, you have no idea what the word >>> "qualia" means. If you would have known, you would have known that qualia = >>> form = meaning = existence. You are not aware of the fact that to exist >>> means to have form. And what a form is is a quality. How else can something >>> exists if it doesn't have any form ? And what is a form if not a quality ? >>> >>> On Saturday, 11 January 2025 at 00:49:16 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>> >>>> Try to keep up. You cannot prove that only qualia exists. All you've >>>> offered so far is a tautology. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:17 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> @Terren. So you say that I cannot prove that only existence exists ? >>>>> Then what else exists ? Inexistence ? >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 23:16:04 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm not asking you to explain existence. I'm saying you cannot prove >>>>>> your claim that the only thing that *can* exist is qualia. And you >>>>>> cannot prove that with a tautology. But you knew that, right? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:33 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> @Terren. Not a truism. A tautology. 1=1. Of course. What else would >>>>>>> you want? How do you expect to explain existence using something >>>>>>> outside of >>>>>>> itself ? Is illogical. Existence exists. 1=1. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Quality = form = meaning. Quality looks the way it does because of >>>>>>> the meaning that it does. And meaning is the way no-thing understands >>>>>>> itself when it looks-back-at-itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 22:12:36 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So in short, your proof is: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. To exist means to have quality >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. Only qualia have quality >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Got it. One problem though - you don't define "quality". So your >>>>>>>> proof is just a truism: "Qualia are all that exist because only qualia >>>>>>>> exist". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You have to define "quality" in a way that does not invoke >>>>>>>> "existence" or "qualia". Otherwise, your proof is something a sub-100 >>>>>>>> IQ >>>>>>>> person might come up with. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:44 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> @Terren. Information doesn't exist. "Information" is just an idea >>>>>>>>> in consciousness. >>>>>>>>> Organ doesn't exist. "Organ" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>>> Brain doesn't exist. "Brain" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>>> Things don't exist. "Things" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>>> See my other topic about PHYSICAL WOOOORLD EXIIIIISISISISTTTT!!!!! >>>>>>>>> See it here for convenience: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE9a2h5ZRqA >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If qualia are about an ObJeCtIvE reality, what is the oBjEcTiVe >>>>>>>>> reality that those qualia refer to ? Is it about: >>>>>>>>> Bart Simpson bouncing? >>>>>>>>> Rotating pirate ship? >>>>>>>>> That isn't my receipt? >>>>>>>>> Lobsters in motion? >>>>>>>>> That is embarrassing? >>>>>>>>> Lactates in pharmacy? >>>>>>>>> Baptism piracy? >>>>>>>>> That isn't mercy? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course you can prove that qualia are all there is. >>>>>>>>> Trolololololololololol. Big deal. Is the most trivial thing in the >>>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>>> Qualia are all that exists because "existence" is synonymous with >>>>>>>>> "quality". To exist means to have quality. If you have no quality you >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> no form, as such you are no-thing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 50% of people are below 100. So 50% of population are >>>>>>>>> scientifically proven retards. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 17:43:06 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As John Clark (a physicalist true believer) puts it, the brute >>>>>>>>>> fact or assumption is that consciousness is how it feels when data is >>>>>>>>>> processed. In this account, consciousness is the experience of >>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>> - the information from our sensory organs as it is processed in our >>>>>>>>>> brains. >>>>>>>>>> So if one accepts that theory of reality, qualia exist only as a >>>>>>>>>> signal >>>>>>>>>> that refers to things that exist independently of an individual's >>>>>>>>>> consciousness. That's what makes it epistemological. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That version is not what I subscribe to, and I'm not trying to >>>>>>>>>> convince you that's the correct account. I'm only saying, there's no >>>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>>> not even in principle, to prove that that's the Truth of what the >>>>>>>>>> ultimate >>>>>>>>>> ontology is. The same goes for your account, which is that >>>>>>>>>> consciousness >>>>>>>>>> and qualia are all that exists. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> PS. By definition, an IQ of 100 is the median. So "most people" >>>>>>>>>> have an IQ right around 100. And I don't mean to suggest that >>>>>>>>>> because most >>>>>>>>>> people take the physicalist account, that makes it more likely to be >>>>>>>>>> true. >>>>>>>>>> I'm saying, if you're talking about your alternative, minority >>>>>>>>>> theory of >>>>>>>>>> reality as if it's fact, then that means you better be able to prove >>>>>>>>>> it. *And >>>>>>>>>> you can't* *- nobody can*, just as nobody can prove physicalism >>>>>>>>>> is true. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:39 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. How can qualia have epistemological status when it >>>>>>>>>>> exists ? Exists = ontologic. You seem very confused regarding the >>>>>>>>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>>> of words. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Also, "most people" have IQ below 100. This is close to >>>>>>>>>>> monkey-level. How is that a criteria on which to decide truth ? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Also, define "energy"! Define "matter"! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 17:48:01 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In your theory, the quale has ontological status, ok. In >>>>>>>>>>>> physicalism (what most people assume), qualia have epistemological >>>>>>>>>>>> status. >>>>>>>>>>>> IOW, qualia is a form of information about something that exists >>>>>>>>>>>> independently of our individual consciousness. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In your theory, consciousness is the fundamental ontology. In >>>>>>>>>>>> physicalism, matter & energy is the fundamental ontology. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deciding what is the fundamental ontology is a metaphysical >>>>>>>>>>>> decision. It's an assumption or belief from which other things >>>>>>>>>>>> follow. But >>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of what is the fundamental ontology cannot be proven. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 5:00 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. Yes. What do you mean by "thing" ? The chair that you >>>>>>>>>>>>> see in front of you ? But that is just a quale in consciousness. >>>>>>>>>>>>> So what do >>>>>>>>>>>>> you mean by "thing" ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 02:28:05 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 🙄 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 7:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>>> List <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. What thing ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 00:33:55 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would venture that the common sense notion of existence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means that a thing that exists has been instantiated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> >>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> >> To view this discussion visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/910ad8a7-012b-42f0-9bf3-ab5dae87aecfn%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/910ad8a7-012b-42f0-9bf3-ab5dae87aecfn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4f108bc5-a14f-4705-bf7d-26b062da6e90n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4f108bc5-a14f-4705-bf7d-26b062da6e90n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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