--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity <no_reply@> > > wrote: > > <snip> > > > I do not believe that enlightenment is life without > > > pain. > > > > It's not. In MMY's terms, it's life without > > being *overshadowed* by pain. > > > > You can actually experience more of it, more > > intensely and fully, if you aren't overshadowed > > by it. > > > > > Instead, maybe just maybe, you realize that there is no > > > love without pain and that pain is OK. > > > > And if you aren't overshadowed by it, you can > > experience more of it, more intensely, more > > fully, more authentically. If you aren't > > overshadowed by it, you don't have to deny it, > > anesthetize yourself against it, just to be able > > to carry on. > > I sure would like to see some quotes from him on this issue. > My impression always was that pain and suffering go away with > meditation. For example, MMY is said to have said: I don't > think Christ ever suffered or Christ could suffer.
He made it clear he meant that Christ would not have been overshadowed by his physical suffering (or his mental suffering, for that matter). Are you familiar with how the term "overshadowed" is used in the TM context? > Or if not meditation, using "vibration" technology to relieve > pain and suffering: http://www.vedicvibration.com/doctors.html > For example: "Through a tender impulse of Vedic vibration, pain > is transformed into a feeling of pleasantness; abnormality is > transformed into normal physiological functioning; the inner > intelligence of the body is enlivened in order to revitalize > its physiological expression." Gee, that's a whole 'nother issue, Ruth. Not what I'm talking about at all. > I think this vibration stuff is unsupported and is > misleading those who are in pain and suffering. Not > very empathetic to me. As you just noted in another post, whether the stuff *works* or not is irrelevant to the empathy issue. If MMY *believed* it worked, that would be enough to demonstrate empathy. > There are plenty of publications which talk about the unbounded > bliss of life, free of suffering, where you live with perfect > health. That's the cartoon version. I'm trying to take you a little more deeply into the theory. But > maybe not so perfect. I did see a purported quote from him > once that said: "There is pain, but there is no suffering." Yes, *that's* what I'm talking about. I think this might > be a bit too clever (if he in fact said this). It's the heart of the matter. MMY is by no means the only one to have said this; it's pretty standard in the enlightenment literature. When I had relatives, > friends or patients who were dying, in pain and suffering, I > suffered as well. I felt pain. That is the nature of empathy. > And most I know who are dying make a peace with it and there > is a serenity with the pain and suffering. But there is still > pain and suffering and sometimes it overwhelms. Not sure what your point is here. Theoretically, in enlightenment, the pain would never overwhelm (or "overshadow") the bliss and serenity. > > <snip> > > > The greatest flaw of MMY appears to me to be his > > > lack of empathy. > > > > He spent his entire adult life attempting to show > > people how to live their lives in fullness without > > being overshadowed by its necessary pain, and he > > lacks empathy?? > > Yes, I stand by my statement. If I have some time, I will > discuss this more later. But folks, I sure would love to > see some quotes from him that illustrate empathy. I sure > would love to see some quotes where he expresses sadness or > expresses sympathy for the suffering of others. Before I spend the time to dig some up, do you require these quotes to be about individuals, or can they be more general statements about human suffering?
