On 23 Sep 2002 at 20:38, Mark D. Lew wrote: > At 3:48 PM 09/23/02, David W. Fenton wrote: > > >No. I mean the AUTO UPDATE checkbox in the click assignment dialog. I > >assume it's intended to update the score in the background, but it is > >not reliable. It seems to work for the first syllable of a measure, > >and then the lyrics go blank for the rest of the measure, and do not > >re-appear until the dialog is closed. > > I never use the Auto Update checkbox. I'm still not clear what it is that > bothers you about click-assignment without Auto Update, but I don't really > need to know. The program should be designed so that you can work with > Type-in-Score only and never need to visit Click Assignment or Edit Lyrics.
Because when I click on a note to assign it, I cannot then see for certain that I've gotten it right, because the score does not properly repaint so that I can see the results of the click. > > [...] > >That's *your* instinct. There's absolutely nothing intuitive or > >obvious about that. Your instinct comes from your long experience of > >struggling with lyrics and you've discovered a kludge that makes > >things works more reliably. > > > > [...] Workarounds like mis-using verses for segregating text divisions are > >not obvious at all. > > OK, OK. I heard you the first time, and the second time, and the third > time. I hereby stipulate: There is nothing obvious or intuitive about > entering different texts into different verses. Can we please drop this > point now? You brought it up again by casting the concept of using verses from the get go as something that should be a natural concept. > >It actually doesn't work that way, unless you are replacing something > >in the score with a blank space or another syllable that falls at the > >same location in a word. > > There's no such thing as replacing with a blank space. You cannot have a > space in a lyric. Well, I meant deleting a syllable. > >Try this: > > > >Create a new document, and input 4 quarter notes. > > > >With TYPE IN SCORE, put in Hal-le-lu-jah as the lyrics > > > >Now, go to the le syllable, and change it to "le,". > > > >Then change the "lu" to "Deutsch-" and the "jah" to "land." > > > >You'll see that you have a leftover hyphen that is actually not > >redundant -- it doesn't belong there at all. In edit lyrics, you'll > >see that the stray hyphen that used to be attached to the "le" of > >hallelujah is now appended to the beginning of "Deutsch," and there > >is no way in TYPE IN SCORE to get rid of it. You *must* edit the > >lyrics in the EDIT LYRICS window. > > Although I'm pretty sure there is nothing that is completely impossible to > fix from type-in-score, it is possible to get into a situation where the > solution is so roundabout or unobvious that Edit Lyrics is the better > choice. > > But in your example, that is not the case. Here it's very easy to change > the hyphen in type-in-score mode: > > Select the syllable "le,". Type the space bar. The hyphen is now gone. > > That's usually the easiest way to get rid of an unwanted hyphen: Select > the syllable preceding the hyphen and type space. Where deletions are > involved, you can create a situation where this won't work, and in some > cases it's hard to identify exactly what the preceding syllable is, but for > ordinary extraneous hyphens, just use the space bar to change the separator > to a space. Well, a simple solution. But to a problem that shouldn't exist. If I delete the syllable, the hyphens attached to it should be deleted. > >Since you do click assignment, you'd never see this. > > True, but since my view of the lyrics is closer to the real data, . . When I think of "real data," I think of my score. When you think of the term, you think of the binary bits. I wonder whose point of view is more common? > . . . I'm more > likely to see a solution that might not be obvious to a type-in-score user. > The idea that a hyphen or a space is part of a syllable, however natural > it may seem to you, does not reflect the reality of Finale's lyrics. A > hyphen or a space is not part of either syllable; it is the wall between > them. Thus, in type-in-score, the creation or deletion of a hyphen or a > space is done not in typing any given syllable, but in traveling from one > to another. > > In the example as you state it, the problem would have never even arisen > had you used space to travel from "le" to "Deutsch", rather than tab, arrow > or the mouse. But in other contexts, SPACE introduces redundant spaces. I just noticed that hitting ENTER after entering a syllable also moves to the next syllable, which means it's entering a space into the source text stream (I checked, and it does), but using ENTER instead of SPACE does *not* get rid of the excess hyphen. In short, inconsistencies in the behavior of TYPE IN SCORE in relation to the source text stream abound. Yet, from my point of view, it is safer, because I can't screw things up as significantly as I can in EDIT LYRICS, and because when I do make a mistake, it's completely obvious from the musical context, which is not true of EDIT LYRICS. And, as I've shown, the musical context does not update properly with click assignment, so as far as I'm concerend the only viable entry method at all is TYPE IN SCORE, because all the others are far, far too isolated from *my* "real data." > >This would be avoidable *if* SHIFT LYRICS worked reliably. > > Shift Lyrics is obviously designed to go with Click Assignment. In its > basic function (ie, making adjustments following a long > alt-click-assignment) it's quite effective, but I've never found it to be > useful for anything else. I'm not at all surprised that it's a weak tool > for a Type-in-Score user. Its purpose is to realign an entire string of > syllables, not to move them one at a time. Eh? Why doesn't it do what it says, which is either to shift everything by one note, or to shift to the the next available note? It doesn't do either of those reliably, and is therefore very tedious, as one use of it in the middle of a score requires reprocessing every lyric assignment from there to the end. > I believe that a Type-in-Score user ought to be able to do everything with > Type-in-Score alone, without ever needing Click Assignment, Edit Lyrics, or > Shift Lyrics. Unfortunately, that's not quite the case now, though it's > possible if certain behaviors are avoided. I'm going to continue using TYPE IN SCORE because it is the only method that feels safe. Now that I know what to avoid and how to work around problems (like the excess hyphens), I can get the results I need. > >So, it's unusable for fixing this, and the only way is either to > >delete the syllables in TYPE IN SCORE and enter replacements, or to > >unassign the lyrics and then re-assign them with click assignment. > >I'd rather use TYPE IN SCORE and then fix the hyphens in EDIT LYRICS > >than rely on the very shaky UI of the click assignment dialog. > > You should be able to fix most of these hyphens in Type in Score, using the > space bar. Well, I didn't know that. Now I do. It also explains why I saw the hyphen problem as intermittent, because I was obviously sometimes hitting the space bar and sometimes not. > >In the example I gave above, the hyphens aren't redundant -- they are > >*wrong*. > > When I say "redundant hyphen", I mean when one or more hyphens appear > consecutively in the text stream. If it is a single hyphen (ie, > non-redundant), you can delete it in Type in Score, using the space bar. But if it's in a context where there should be no hyphen at all, it is not *redundant*. [] > >I have figured out that > >I'm not going to use spaces any more to advance the TYPE IN SCORE > >cursor, as it puts all those redundant spaces in EDIT LYRICS > > Can you please explain this statement, or better yet give me an example? > I'm unable to create redundant spaces in this way, so I think I must be > misunderstanding what you mean. The only way I know to make redundant > spaces with Type-in-Score is by deleting. To be honest, I have no idea now. I didn't delete nearly as many syllables as there were spaces in my source text, so I assumed they came from advancing with the space bar. Again, inconsistent data, data I don't intend, is getting into the source text stream. I can't figure out what I did to get the erroneous data there, because I thought I was doing things in a logical and clear way, based on what I could see on screen. This is not new information, just more evidence that something is seriously wrong. > >So, you don't think Coda cares about implementing features that help > >those non-engravers get results that don't look bad? I *hope* they > >care, since those people are certainly in the majority of Finale > >users! > > How else do you explain the current state of lyrics? Obviously lyrics > users aren't a priority. I didn't *ask* if Coda thought lyrics were a priority -- I asked if Coda cared about features that helped non-engravers. You didn't answer that question. -- David W. Fenton | http://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associates | http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
