I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including all my hard-earned research in this one?
On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris <char...@resrchnet.com>wrote: > My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully > with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the > lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble > on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer > requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. > > I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, > not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry > Pidcock > Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM > To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > > Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper > that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual > language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then > translated into complex hlsl). > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Harry Jeffery" <harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM > To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com > > > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > > > I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ > > > > 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald <voo...@voogru.com>: > >> I like this one better. > >> > >> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com > >> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly > >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM > >> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming > >> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > >> > >> Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my > >> screen!... > >> > >> 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock <haz...@tpg.com.au> > >> > >>> Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully > >>> implemented > >>> a > >>> new feature. > >>> > >>> http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt > >>> > >>> I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>> From: "Andrew Ritchie" <gotta...@gmail.com> > >>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM > >>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" > >>> <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com > >>> > > >>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine > >>> > >>> > Surely this topic could be split into several different points. > >>> Personally > >>> > I > >>> > see 4 different ones here. > >>> > > >>> > 1) Engine features > >>> > 2) Tools Capabilities > >>> > 3) Tools Availability > >>> > 4) Tools Presentation > >>> > > >>> > The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new > >>> > features > >>> or > >>> > change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's > >>> > important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games > need > >>> > doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are > >>> > modding > >>> > their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a > >> lot > >>> > of > >>> > money and brought huge success but they were also developed around > the > >>> > constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR > these > >>> > mods > >>> > to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an > >> engine > >>> > change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the > >>> > feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to > >>> > really > >>> > prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic > >>> > change > >>> > for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get > >>> > underway > >>> > or > >>> > be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without > >>> > a > >>> > lot > >>> > of work, if not at all. > >>> > > >>> > The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I > >> don't > >>> > mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically > >>> > allowing > >>> > the > >>> > chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use > >>> > a > >>> > common format. The tool would need to have the importer and > converter > >>> > written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific > >> and > >>> > industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. > >>> > Especially > >>> if > >>> > it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that > the > >>> > tool > >>> > can then use. > >>> > > >>> > With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be open > >>> > source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at > >>> > Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally > >>> > personal > >>> > projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own > editor > >>> and > >>> > open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better designed > >>> > tool. > >>> > However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of > any > >>> > benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around > and > >> do > >>> > you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have > >>> > bugs > >>> > but > >>> > if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and lead > >>> > by > >>> > example? > >>> > > >>> > The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool with > a > >> UI > >>> > or > >>> > removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is > >> balancing > >>> > the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I > >>> > feel > >>> it > >>> > again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the > >>> > way > >>> it > >>> > is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what they > >>> > need. > >>> > It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who > would > >>> > need > >>> > that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back to > >>> > Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around in > a > >>> hex > >>> > or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the > >>> > technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors hiding > >> away > >>> > the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the > >>> > user > >>> > and > >>> > the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might be, > >>> > at > >>> > this > >>> > stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for > >>> those. > >>> > Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it > up, > >>> > HLMV > >>> > too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about simplifying > >> and > >>> > unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development > >> could > >>> > lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious > about > >>> > rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. > >>> > > >>> > Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was that > >>> > specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can accept > >> would > >>> > be > >>> > good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately obvious > >>> reason. > >>> > The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something > that > >> is > >>> > best approached with good old community spirit. If you're serious > >> enough > >>> > about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way > >>> > users > >>> > develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing to > >>> > tackle. > >>> > Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a bit > >>> > of > >>> a > >>> > cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are examples > >>> > of > >>> > those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and Garrys > >>> > mod > >>> is > >>> > a > >>> > prime example of taking what is available game code wise and adding > >>> > the > >>> > extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just > >>> > falling > >>> > back to the "Valve Needs to Support Mods" and "Valve do whats best > for > >>> > Valve > >>> > games and mods need to deal with it" arguments that go no where. > >>> > > >>> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears <benmea...@gmail.com> > >>> > wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I agree > >>> >> with > >>> >> what > >>> >> Jed said 100%. > >>> >> > >>> >> Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? > >>> >> > >>> >> great, thanks! > >>> >> > >>> >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed <j...@wunderboy.org> wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> > No I wasn't advocating an 3D app -> MDL path. Simply adding > support > >>> >> > for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that StudioMDL > >>> >> > supports. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from > and > >>> >> > old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to > >>> >> > support > >>> >> > it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not > >>> >> > automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled against > >> the > >>> >> > new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to have > >> one > >>> >> > version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. > Therefore > >>> >> > SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by > the > >> 3D > >>> >> > app users themselves. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as DAE, > >>> >> > FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL > >>> >> > compiler > >>> >> > (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in > *addition* > >> to > >>> >> > the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > So why should they do it? > >>> >> > > >>> >> > - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce content > >>> >> > out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example DAE/FBX > >>> >> > is > >>> >> > supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. > >>> >> > - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of > their > >>> >> > choice to create content. > >>> >> > - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support > the > >>> >> > format in the compiler. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that > >>> >> > write > >>> >> > it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, et > >> al. > >>> >> > to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me once > >>> >> > asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 > >> because > >>> >> > that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had > >>> >> > invested > >>> >> > a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have to > >>> >> > move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a > >>> >> > Source > >>> >> > license for their title was hanging on the availability of > plug-ins > >>> >> > for Max. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels like > >>> >> > Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider adoption > >>> >> > which might result in more licensees and from a modders > >>> >> > perspective, > >>> >> > more people getting into it and maybe making the next > >>> >> > CSS/TF2/Portal > >>> >> > that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a > >>> >> > dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - > not > >>> >> > this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start > (and > >>> >> > adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) > >>> >> > - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old buggy > >>> >> > mxtk > >>> >> > GUI from Mete's HLMV. > >>> >> > - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually > phase > >>> >> > out SMD, etc. > >>> >> > - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source code > >> for > >>> >> > apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from even > >>> >> > partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. > >>> >> > - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D > >> window > >>> >> > like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible so > >>> >> > that developers can add support for model rendering in other apps. > >>> >> > - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to end > >>> >> > users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm > welcoming > >>> >> > experience to inspire the next great ideas. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > I could go on but you get the general idea... > >>> >> > > >>> >> > - Jed > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez <bs.v...@gmail.com>: > >>> >> > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh <minh...@telus.net> > wrote: > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > >> The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates > >>> >> > >> reference > >>> >> > meshes, > >>> >> > >> AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight > from > >> 3d > >>> >> > model / > >>> >> > >> animation -> .mdl ? > >>> >> > >> How is that going to work with parametric animation? where you > >>> >> > >> can > >>> >> > combine > >>> >> > >> multiple .smds to make an animation? > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are > >>> >> > > formidable, > >>> >> > > it > >>> >> > still > >>> >> > > leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. > >>> >> > > Don't > >>> >> tell > >>> >> > me > >>> >> > > you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly > having > >>> >> > problems > >>> >> > > with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows > for > >>> >> > combining > >>> >> > > animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still pisses > >>> >> > > me > >>> >> > > off > >>> >> > > quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach > of > >>> >> > > most > >>> >> > > artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but I'm > >>> >> > surprised > >>> >> > > they haven't replaced it entirely. > >>> >> > > > >>> >> > > The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too > many > >>> >> > problems > >>> >> > > with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it does > >>> >> > > it > >>> >> > > in > >>> >> a > >>> >> > bit > >>> >> > > of a backwards way. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > >>> >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >> archives, > >>> >> > please visit: > >>> >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >>> >> archives, > >>> >> please visit: > >>> >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > >>> > please visit: > >>> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > No virus found in this incoming message. > >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>> > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.28/2259 - Release Date: > >>> 07/24/09 > >>> > 18:24:00 > >>> > > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >>> please visit: > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from Olly's SEGA Game Gear > >> _______________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >> please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > >> please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.30/2262 - Release Date: > 07/25/09 > > 18:01:00 > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
