yes, that would be better. 2009/7/26 Matt Hoffman <lord.matt.hoff...@gmail.com>: > I for one would also like a fix for the ATI Hammer text... jaggies. > > Or should I make a separate hlcoders email about that instead of including > all my hard-earned research in this one? > > > On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Christopher Harris > <char...@resrchnet.com>wrote: > >> My only wish for updates to the tools is to update Faceposer to work fully >> with Vista. Currently it is not possible to do auto-generation of the >> lip-synch data in Vista, and furthermore another dev and I both had trouble >> on his XP machine locating a working link to the Speech SDK that Faceposer >> requires, all the MS links were 404, etc. >> >> I will just say that doing the lip synch data yourself is extremely lemons, >> not to mention that I am a coder not an artiste :D >> >> Chris >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Harry >> Pidcock >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 9:32 PM >> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >> >> Whitespace should be easy to embed in the engine if you create a wrapper >> that works with the feature I presented before. Whitespace is a very visual >> language that is great for particle effects and shaders(it is then >> translated into complex hlsl). >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Harry Jeffery" <harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> >> Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 4:40 AM >> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >> > >> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >> >> > I thought it looked so clean and easy, then I selected the whitespace. =[ >> > >> > 2009/7/25 Spencer 'voogru' MacDonald <voo...@voogru.com>: >> >> I like this one better. >> >> >> >> http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com >> >> [mailto:hlcoders-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Olly >> >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:54 AM >> >> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming >> >> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >> >> >> >> Its a good job you used tinyurl, otherwise it wouldn't have fit on my >> >> screen!... >> >> >> >> 2009/7/25 Harry Pidcock <haz...@tpg.com.au> >> >> >> >>> Valve contacted me yesterday to tell me they have successfully >> >>> implemented >> >>> a >> >>> new feature. >> >>> >> >>> http://tinyurl.com/4f6mt >> >>> >> >>> I hope to see more of these innovations in the future. >> >>> >> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >> >>> From: "Andrew Ritchie" <gotta...@gmail.com> >> >>> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 10:21 AM >> >>> To: "Discussion of Half-Life Programming" >> >>> <hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >> >>> > >> >>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] whats happening with this engine >> >>> >> >>> > Surely this topic could be split into several different points. >> >>> Personally >> >>> > I >> >>> > see 4 different ones here. >> >>> > >> >>> > 1) Engine features >> >>> > 2) Tools Capabilities >> >>> > 3) Tools Availability >> >>> > 4) Tools Presentation >> >>> > >> >>> > The first is ignorable, Valve is clearly only going to add new >> >>> > features >> >>> or >> >>> > change things, like BSP and displacement maps, when they think it's >> >>> > important. It's their engine and it needs to do what their games >> need >> >>> > doing. If you choose to use Source then you have to accept you are >> >>> > modding >> >>> > their engine. Sure TF, CS, DoD etc.. all were mods that made Valve a >> >> lot >> >>> > of >> >>> > money and brought huge success but they were also developed around >> the >> >>> > constraints of the engine rather than the engine being built FOR >> these >> >>> > mods >> >>> > to be made. If a technical limitation is big enough to warrent an >> >> engine >> >>> > change then do so rather than hanging about wanting Valve to add the >> >>> > feature, as big as the previous mentioned mods are you'd need to >> >>> > really >> >>> > prove you're up to their popularity before Valve would make a drastic >> >>> > change >> >>> > for you. So either accept the engine's features before you get >> >>> > underway >> >>> > or >> >>> > be prepared to encounter the fact you can't do certain things without >> >>> > a >> >>> > lot >> >>> > of work, if not at all. >> >>> > >> >>> > The Tools Capabilities I think is what Jed was really getting at, I >> >> don't >> >>> > mean like adding features to hammer and stuff but specifically >> >>> > allowing >> >>> > the >> >>> > chance for modders to by pass say model exporting to smd and just use >> >>> > a >> >>> > common format. The tool would need to have the importer and >> converter >> >>> > written but I personally think that approaching Valve with a specific >> >> and >> >>> > industry accepted intermediate format might be a good cause. >> >>> > Especially >> >>> if >> >>> > it makes life easier for getting the raw assets into a format that >> the >> >>> > tool >> >>> > can then use. >> >>> > >> >>> > With the availability of tools, I mean those asking that they be open >> >>> > source. Specifically referring to a comment about hammer, look at >> >>> > Worldcraft and BSP ( Yahn's editor iirc ) they were originally >> >>> > personal >> >>> > projects. So you could take a leaf and have a bash at your own >> editor >> >>> and >> >>> > open source it, you never know might turn out to be a better designed >> >>> > tool. >> >>> > However just having the source code to hammer, I doubt would be of >> any >> >>> > benefit, you'd have dozens of versions of the tool floating around >> and >> >> do >> >>> > you really think you could add something useful to it? It may have >> >>> > bugs >> >>> > but >> >>> > if you advocate open source then why not take the initiative and lead >> >>> > by >> >>> > example? >> >>> > >> >>> > The last one, has been brought up in regards to wrapping a tool with >> a >> >> UI >> >>> > or >> >>> > removing the need for QC files. With this I think the issue is >> >> balancing >> >>> > the technical knowledge and the capabilities of a tool. However I >> >>> > feel >> >>> it >> >>> > again falls back to a situation where Valve are happy to use it the >> >>> > way >> >>> it >> >>> > is, they understand it and can get any of their tools to do what they >> >>> > need. >> >>> > It's the new, non technical, or perhaps slightly lazy people who >> would >> >>> > need >> >>> > that more complex aspects automated for them. I'd refer this back to >> >>> > Hammer, the early days of mapping could often mean rooting around in >> a >> >>> hex >> >>> > or text editor and as things progressed and art started needing the >> >>> > technical requirements to be simplified you found map editors hiding >> >> away >> >>> > the old formats. Worldcraft and Hammer essentially sit between the >> >>> > user >> >>> > and >> >>> > the BSP, VIS, RAD etc.. compilers. The format they accept might be, >> >>> > at >> >>> > this >> >>> > stage, more heavily tied into hammer but it's still a front end for >> >>> those. >> >>> > Again perhaps Worldcraft was a special case with Valve gobbling it >> up, >> >>> > HLMV >> >>> > too, but I think if the community is adamant enough about simplifying >> >> and >> >>> > unifying the tool chain then perhaps a bit of proactive development >> >> could >> >>> > lead the way or at least prove to Valve that everyone is serious >> about >> >>> > rethinking the way we interact with the SDK. >> >>> > >> >>> > Ok, sorry bit of a ramble but mainly what I wanted to share was that >> >>> > specific things like adding FBX to the formats studiomdl can accept >> >> would >> >>> > be >> >>> > good ventures as they are specific and have an immediately obvious >> >>> reason. >> >>> > The other stuff like creating a unified system might be something >> that >> >> is >> >>> > best approached with good old community spirit. If you're serious >> >> enough >> >>> > about wanting to use the engine but can genuinely improve the way >> >>> > users >> >>> > develop for it then get organized and see if it's a viable thing to >> >>> > tackle. >> >>> > Even if it's just to prove you were right. I know the later is a bit >> >>> > of >> >>> a >> >>> > cop out but Jed, Nem and NS2 (prior to dropping Source ) are examples >> >>> > of >> >>> > those who have gone out of their way to do so with tools and Garrys >> >>> > mod >> >>> is >> >>> > a >> >>> > prime example of taking what is available game code wise and adding >> >>> > the >> >>> > extensions (Specifically scriptint) you want. Plus it beats just >> >>> > falling >> >>> > back to the "Valve Needs to Support Mods" and "Valve do whats best >> for >> >>> > Valve >> >>> > games and mods need to deal with it" arguments that go no where. >> >>> > >> >>> > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Ben Mears <benmea...@gmail.com> >> >>> > wrote: >> >>> > >> >>> >> As a 3D modeller, animator, and mapper, (and not a coder) I agree >> >>> >> with >> >>> >> what >> >>> >> Jed said 100%. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Jed, can you please just go work for Valve? >> >>> >> >> >>> >> great, thanks! >> >>> >> >> >>> >> On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Jed <j...@wunderboy.org> wrote: >> >>> >> >> >>> >> > No I wasn't advocating an 3D app -> MDL path. Simply adding >> support >> >>> >> > for a more common/cross platform 3D format to those that StudioMDL >> >>> >> > supports. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > The problem with the SMD format is that it's an old format from >> and >> >>> >> > old engine and requires plug-ins to be written for 3D apps to >> >>> >> > support >> >>> >> > it. This leaves it down to Valve to write them. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > Take Max for example - a plug-in for one version does not >> >>> >> > automatically work with another, it needs to be recompiled against >> >> the >> >>> >> > new versions SDK. A shop like Valve is probably only going to have >> >> one >> >>> >> > version and not upgrade every time a new one comes along. >> Therefore >> >>> >> > SMD plug-ins for other versions are going to have to be made by >> the >> >> 3D >> >>> >> > app users themselves. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > Now there are plenty of suitable cross-app 3D formats such as DAE, >> >>> >> > FBX, etc. that Valve could add support for to the StudioMDL >> >>> >> > compiler >> >>> >> > (and I've vocally expressed this to Valve many times) in >> *addition* >> >> to >> >>> >> > the SMD, OBJ and MRM formats it already supports. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > So why should they do it? >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > - Common file format means more 3D apps that can produce content >> >>> >> > out-of-the-box or via publisher made plug-ins. For example DAE/FBX >> >>> >> > is >> >>> >> > supported by XSI, Maya, Max, Blender, Milkshape3D, etc, etc. >> >>> >> > - Gives modders/studios/licensees choice to use the 3D app of >> their >> >>> >> > choice to create content. >> >>> >> > - Valve doesn't need to produce plug-ins for apps, just support >> the >> >>> >> > format in the compiler. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > Simply put SMD format is binding end users to the few apps that >> >>> >> > write >> >>> >> > it and the generosity of community users such as myself, Prall, et >> >> al. >> >>> >> > to write these plug-ins for the 3D apps we want to use. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > Interesting case in point - a Canadian studio approached me once >> >>> >> > asking me when my plug-ins would be available for 3DS Max 2009 >> >> because >> >>> >> > that was their in-shop 3D content creation tool and they had >> >>> >> > invested >> >>> >> > a lot of money in software and training and didn't want to have to >> >>> >> > move to something else. Their apparent decision to purchase a >> >>> >> > Source >> >>> >> > license for their title was hanging on the availability of >> plug-ins >> >>> >> > for Max. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > My main issue with some of the SDK tool is that that it feels like >> >>> >> > Valve aren't being smart about it. Good tools means wider adoption >> >>> >> > which might result in more licensees and from a modders >> >>> >> > perspective, >> >>> >> > more people getting into it and maybe making the next >> >>> >> > CSS/TF2/Portal >> >>> >> > that Valve can snap up as their IP. I think Valve should have a >> >>> >> > dedicated tool guy (not me) turning out polished useful tools - >> not >> >>> >> > this rehashed crap that's hung over from Half-Life 1. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > - Start over with StudioMDL - make it a GUI app from the start >> (and >> >>> >> > adding batch/scripting to it wouldn't be hard) >> >>> >> > - Make HLMV a proper MFC of WPF app and get rid of the old buggy >> >>> >> > mxtk >> >>> >> > GUI from Mete's HLMV. >> >>> >> > - Add support form more 3D modern file formats and eventually >> phase >> >>> >> > out SMD, etc. >> >>> >> > - If for license/NDA reasons you can't release all the source code >> >> for >> >>> >> > apps, at least release parts of it. A lot can be learned from even >> >>> >> > partial code that could help us as modders make our own apps. >> >>> >> > - Add some SDK tool API stuff - for example code to render a 3D >> >> window >> >>> >> > like in HLMV. It can still require steam but make it accessible so >> >>> >> > that developers can add support for model rendering in other apps. >> >>> >> > - Polished tools will make the SDK/Engine more attractive to end >> >>> >> > users. Modding shouldn't be a right of passage but a warm >> welcoming >> >>> >> > experience to inspire the next great ideas. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > I could go on but you get the general idea... >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > - Jed >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > 2009/7/24 Jorge Rodriguez <bs.v...@gmail.com>: >> >>> >> > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 2:41 AM, Minh <minh...@telus.net> >> wrote: >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> > >> The .smd format is extremely robust the way accomodates >> >>> >> > >> reference >> >>> >> > meshes, >> >>> >> > >> AND skeletal animation. So you want a method to go straight >> from >> >> 3d >> >>> >> > model / >> >>> >> > >> animation -> .mdl ? >> >>> >> > >> How is that going to work with parametric animation? where you >> >>> >> > >> can >> >>> >> > combine >> >>> >> > >> multiple .smds to make an animation? >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> > > Minh, while the capabilities of the studio compiler are >> >>> >> > > formidable, >> >>> >> > > it >> >>> >> > still >> >>> >> > > leaves much to be desired in terms of file format and syntax. >> >>> >> > > Don't >> >>> >> tell >> >>> >> > me >> >>> >> > > you've never struggled with the qc format. I am constantly >> having >> >>> >> > problems >> >>> >> > > with its limitations. It's a rather robust system that allows >> for >> >>> >> > combining >> >>> >> > > animations in many interesting ways, but the syntax still pisses >> >>> >> > > me >> >>> >> > > off >> >>> >> > > quite a bit, and the technicality of it leaves it out of reach >> of >> >>> >> > > most >> >>> >> > > artists. I hear Valve wrote some simple tools around it, but I'm >> >>> >> > surprised >> >>> >> > > they haven't replaced it entirely. >> >>> >> > > >> >>> >> > > The SMD format is perhaps a bit clunky, but I don't have too >> many >> >>> >> > problems >> >>> >> > > with it, because it does exactly what is needed, even if it does >> >>> >> > > it >> >>> >> > > in >> >>> >> a >> >>> >> > bit >> >>> >> > > of a backwards way. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> >> archives, >> >>> >> > please visit: >> >>> >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> >>> >> archives, >> >>> >> please visit: >> >>> >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >> archives, >> >>> > please visit: >> >>> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >> >>> > No virus found in this incoming message. >> >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> >>> > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.28/2259 - Release Date: >> >>> 07/24/09 >> >>> > 18:24:00 >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> >>> please visit: >> >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Sent from Olly's SEGA Game Gear >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> >> please visit: >> >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> >> please visit: >> >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> > please visit: >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > >> > No virus found in this incoming message. >> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.30/2262 - Release Date: >> 07/25/09 >> > 18:01:00 >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > >
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