Hi, This mail is intended to clear this issue out of our list(may be we can lay an example for such lists that have language diversity issues - rather than suppressing one group of people) and not bring in new fights.
One good example is Linux users groups in France that are giving more importance to their native language - French(minimum English and maximum French) http://www.linux.org/groups/france.html We can't apply the same directly to Indian Linux users Groups as such because we have more than 20 official languages(think so). But, the official languages of the region in which the LUG is operating can be allowed to be used in it. Is this the scenario where some one suddenly comes here and asks not to use English in this list and use Thamizh instead of English. If someone did say that then they can be treated differently. But, People are questioned inappropriately just because their post is in Thamizh. In despair they reciprocate with some content that leads to a 50 post thread. We(all) can comment each other easily and find/get some short term enjoyment out of it. This thread won't stop and if it stops it is a small pause for another storm of messages in a similar thread where someone write in Thamizh. Let us put a final and strong stop for these threads(selection of communication language) with correct rectifications in mail list rules. List administrator can decide upon this(He can have a online meeting or offline meeting with list members) and send a final mail containing list of change to be made in our list with respect to different languages in posts. The delay between my last post and this one is due to some digging work done in earlier threads of same offensive nature. *We would be able to conclude considering the two factors that caused this issue :* 1. A General Classification of people here as members and will be as members in future(This categorization is not for segregation of any kind it is just for the sake of grouping people based on the languages they know & where they reside.) 2. Ideology of people under each category. *Let me categorize the people who have posted here or a member of our list(* * based on member types in ideology perspective**):* 1. One who knows Thamizh well - ie., proficient in reading and writing (even if his mother tongue may or may not be Thamizh ; His mother tongue could be one among the 22 languages or so; He could have been in Chennai/any Thamizh speaking community in a certain period of time & learnt it with love towards it) but is not familiar with English( he may or may not have the willingness to learn and use English) or can't read & write in English as of now. 2. One who is proficient in Thamizh and English or at least who knows to read and write in both languages & able to contribute in the translation effort here(translation of threads). 3. One who knows only English( & ~Thamizh). *Reasons favoring people in category 1:* 1. He/She should be given chance here to interact freely in Thamizh.( This list describes itself as Indian Linux Users Group - Chennai), Chennai is the capital of Tamilnadu. Most people here would be from tamilnadu( ofcouse it has global members - but they have their own regional groups - almost all major cities in India and cities/towns/villages around the World). People stated that there can be TLUGC(Tamil Linux Users Group Chennai) then this list should have been ELUGC(English Linux Users Group Chennai). I am not mocking anyone nor the list but to bring out that such things are not actual solutions for this thread(It kindles new arguments). 1. Many members of ILUGC are here because they were/are residing in chennai for a period of time(past or present). 2. And a considerable amount of people here are the residents of Tamil Nadu(a major portion of whom may not know English but can/will turn out to be great contibutors of Linux/Opensource/Free Softwares not only in Translation but programming,testing, designing, concepts, etc.,). 2. My view is - He/She should be allowed to post in the regional language without separate rules while posting(India's constitution acts state that each Non-Hindi state has the right to practise/use its regional language and English. In non-Hindi states it would be Hindi instead of English - not another cold war from here ) 3. Based on the Indian Constitution acts and rights we have this situation where at least a single person (will be)/(is ) a member of this list who may not use English in his/her workplace or education system or home - in such case even if he would have learnt English it would have diminished in due course of time - Category 2 &3 people need English in some or one of the three reasons so we are able to keep English in out mind. Non-Hindi states - states where Hindi is not a mandatory language can use/practise their regional language along with English. Even central government activities/transaction/business can be carried out with the help of authentic region language to English translators. So, there are more chances that there are people who only know Thamizh are here and want to be part of ILUGC. They would not have been a part of EILUGC or ILUGCE. But they want to be part of ILUGC. *Reasons favoring people in category 2:* 1. These people have the responsibility here(in this list) to bind category 1 and category 3. They have the whole responsibility. 2. They have the ultimate responsibility to bring down this issue 1. selection of communication languages - English & Thamizh. 2. Effects of choosing two languages simultaneously in a list - we may be a global example of a list to have two extremely different language in a single list - and proof for other future or present mailing lists for language coexistence without fights. 3. Surely there are problems and overheads - extra threads or at least posts will circulate than before. We must think to overcome problems by creating new rules. Change is necessary now. These new rules must get into our list rules and be added in the monthly reminder. 4. how to make all threads readable by other 2 categories 5. Manual translations or automated translations can be opted. An automatic tool can find each untranslated Thamizh mail in the list, translate them to English and then can send it as a single merged post or as multiple translated posts to the list. 3. If such an option is available then one who don't know English translation(or not willing to do) can go ahead by choosing just Thamizh. Everyone must give credit to the translation effort and time spent by the individuals or groups of people who do it - A single paragraph with less than 200 words can be posted with translation by the thread starter itself(if they are Category 2 people). If the posted content exceeds 1000 words(or if he posts often) it will be really tough for him and in the due course he may not post fearing the translation and mainly the sort of insulation and mocking done by some or many) . Remember people this is a public list that gets mirrored to known and unknown hosts(may). I have chosen my words.Kindly choose Your words before posting. i.e., anyone can read our posts regardless of any time period(mirrored - can be read now and also in future even generations after). 4. We - "category 2" people are product of state's decision on regional language - Thamizh & English. ie., People who know both of these in Tamilnadu. *Reasons favoring people in category 3:* 1. These people can be Tamilnadu people who settled in various other states of India or other countries(whose home/workplace/education was/is independent of Tamil & mostly dependent on English) 2. People from various other states of India who had no chance/no need to learn Tamil. 3. Others are the global members - members who are aliens(who are English speaking non-citizen of India) 4. We can't loose category 3 people But, Kindly remember that people who belong to category 1 have only this place where they can get clarification, do their service, participate in events,etc., I value this list to be the most active and informative one that I am member of .Can we deny knowledge to people in their own state for not knowing a language - aren't we(Linux,FSF,OSS,GNU enthusiasits) beyond linguistic barriers. ILUGC has the need to address this issue. And ILUGC's main events are in Chennai(may have global events) but, It is here to serve the Chennai people(who resided/are residing in Chennai or at least the region around it). So, We need some sort of pleasing end for this language issue. We can be in any one of these categories but we must try to understand the problems faced by people in other categories. * My Suggestions:* 1. First and foremost the "TAMIL" word in Subject line need not be mandatory(can be a suggestion) - It may be left over accidentally which may lead to a big word war. 2. Let each language be denoted in its own script(with its own representation - letters,numerals,punctuations,etc.,). Let us standardize Thamizh topics & conversations to be in UTF-8. So that people will be able to understand whether it is English or Thamizh. ie., don't represent English words with Thamizh letters and Thamizh words with English letters(This is the major cause of confusion & it affects the readability of the message - and it was the source for the storm of messages in an earlier case some months back). At least we know this feasible because both language belong to different scripting(can be easily differentiate). 3. A separate translation thread with prefix -[TRANSLATED TAM - ENG] by the the thread starter or category 2 people with willingness will be available. Immediate/late availability of such separate threads depends on whether it will be of use to others(a new concept, technical study,technical solution - now or in future) will be started immediately alongside with the first original posting. If not a translated thread will be posted after the original thread gets solved. It will be available with subject line prefixed with [RESOLVED : TRANSLATED TAM - ENG] . If manual translation doesn't make sense We can opt automated translation . A new project from scratch (may be incorporating existing modules from other like minded open source projects) can be started. 4. If You are going to neglect a post don't say here that you move it to Trash/Recycle bin/Spam folder/Scam folder/anything of that sort. Do it - don't say that here. It hurts others who contribute here. 5. I respect those who are reading ,posting in this thread and feel the responsibility to solve this problem. Let us put a full stop for this issue once for all. 6. The above holds good for threads which are started in English and contain some posts in Thamizh(A manual or automatic translation would certainly help). In other words We(the one who were and are translating - because I have joined them) will do it forever. To my knowledge We must allow both English and Thamizh to coexist here in ILUGC. Its up to the great people who frame additional rules here other than the ones specified in RFCs and moderators of this community to take action. We(ILUGC) need all people with willingness to contribute to FOSS and at the same time language contribution to FOSS comes from the regional people(Most of the time) thanks and regards, Ignacius _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, email ilugc-requ...@ae.iitm.ac.in with "unsubscribe <password> <address>" in the subject or body of the message. http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
