With regards to user interfaces for email itself, I'd like to mention that there are many hybrids out there that work for many communities. I'm not proposing this in any way. I'm quite happy for PHP to use mailing lists, and personally would recommend improving the existing web interface, and to perhaps prepare an FAQ/tips-n-tricks to get started, such as setting up the emails to go into a folder and linking to how to do this with popular email providers/apps.
To mention a few in case there is interest in migrating instead of improving: * Mailman. Probably the most of not one of the most popular softwares to manage mailing lists at scale (W3C, Curl, Python, Wikimedia, etc.). The latest version, Mailman3 features the "Hyperkitty", which presents the archive in an interactive read-write fashion rather than merely read-only. Effectively making it feel like a forum, discussion board, Discourse, etc from the web UI. This doesn't affect the backend, which remains fully email-based. * Topicbox. From the folks at Fastmail, this is marketed as a better interface for business/team email (they don't call it a "mailing list" or a "forum"), but it is effectively a mailing list server with a forum interface allowing you to create threads and reply from either your email app, or from the web interface. This one feels quite a bit more mature and polished than Hyperkitty and provides a less leaky abstraction (e.g. doesn't feel like a shim over top of email). * Google Groups. This is not freely licensed software obviously, but it is probably the second most common way to manage mailing lists at scale. It has a solid web interface where you can participate fully, including to turn off your own personal "email" side of things if you prefer not to be notified through there, or you can choose to sign up with digests where you might get a weekly summary as a way to be nudged back in. This is especially handy for people who do like email as a way to be notified, but perhaps have nothing else in their life using Google Groups so they're not likely to see messages there unless something links them there, which the weekly digets would accomplish. * Discourse. This is effectively the inverse of Google Groups and least like a "real" mailing list. I'd describe Discourse as a web discussion forum first, and mailing list second. Afaik it does offer full participation via email. By default you only get notified of replies to threads you've opted into to subscribing to but you can subscribe to a whole category/subforum for new threads, and can reply-by-email to post comments without using their web app. Probably the most incremental step (after improving) is Mailman, assuming an import of the archive is possible with URL-compatible redirects. Again, I'm not proposing this, but might as well have it out there as a less bad option in case people are drawn to migrating. -- Timo On Thu, 13 Apr 2023, at 01:29, Andreas Heigl wrote: > Hey all > > On 12.04.23 22:44, Larry Garfield wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023, at 6:42 PM, Rowan Tommins wrote: > > > > > >> Which brings me back to my earlier point: I wonder how much of the > >> reaction is really about e-mail itself, and how much is just the > >> documentation and sign-up forms you encounter *before* you hit the list. > >> Because if it's the latter, migrating the entire community to a new > >> platform won't help - we'll still suck at introducing anyone to that > >> platform - and most of what we need is someone who's good with words to > >> update some website copy. > > > > I agree, and it's a common pattern, both here and in the earlier thread > > about deprecations/evolution. > > > > Problems exist. Both with the mailing list setup we have, and the > > evolution/deprecation process. It's not reasonable to deny either. > > > > But so often, people lead with "and here's why we should rm -rf and start > > over" or "and here's why you're all terrible" or other extremely > > not-helpful "suggestions." That poisons the well, and totally saps any > > energy for working on the things that can and should be improved > > incrementally. > > > > It makes me very sad, because if someone were actually to volunteer to > > overhaul the mailing list signup process and verify that it actually, you > > know, works reliably, there's a good chance they'd be greeted with open > > arms. (And a fair amount of access skepticism I'm sure, but still, it's no > > secret that we'd benefit from that.) But that's not what happens. > > > > I would like to take this as a first step: > > As I already do have access to the lists-server I'm happy to work on > improving the lists usability. > > So far I see three different things: > > 1. Remove modification of the emails on the lists server so that DKIM > and DMARC will finally work > 2. Improve/Update the interfaces of https://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php > 3. Update (or possibly completely remove?) https://www.php.net/unsub.php > > The latest is linke in the added footer that would be removed by step 1 > and that should be unnecessary anyhow as the list-unsubscribe header > already should provide the email-clients with a way to show an > unsubscribe button right in the email. > > Any volunteers helping are welcome! > > And please do voice concerns regarding point 1!!!! > > Cheers > > Andreas > > -- > ,,, > (o o) > +---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+ > | Andreas Heigl | > | mailto:andr...@heigl.org N 50°22'59.5" E 08°23'58" | > | https://andreas.heigl.org | > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | https://hei.gl/appointmentwithandreas | > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | GPG-Key: https://hei.gl/keyandreasheiglorg | > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > *Attachments:* > • OpenPGP_signature
