A bit of damage control here, and a personal announcement: First - thanks Neil - I know you are trying to keep the peace, but I do want to point out that I did not say that we were being begged for interviews, please re-read the posting for clarification. Gone are the days when we had to do the begging, but I can honestly say no one has ever begged us to come on the show, nor would I feel entirely comfortable with that (someone that needy would sound the alarm bells). No, these days we are merely in the happy position of being taken seriously, and getting lots of simple offers and requests for interviews. Nothing more. I say this partly because I would like you to see how easy it is to misread or misquote something.
Our interviewing style is a personal choice, it is in no way because we are afraid of putting people off - I just see little point in introducing conflict into a situation when "softly softly" seems to work really well for us. As far as the Jigsaw interview goes, we hit every point that I have heard leveled against Jigsaw, including the use of OSGi to split up Harmony. I believe we ask the hard questions, but I see no reason not to ask them politely - it was after all how I was brought up. I would encourage you, as you say, to dig deeper yourselves, which brings me to my main point of this post. Firstly, I want to make it clear that I am speaking entirely for myself here. I have not talked to the rest of the posse yet, but when I wake up at 4.30am with stuff swimming about my head it's time to take action, so this is my pledge, for me, Tor, Joe and Carl can speak for themselves. When the requests first started coming in for us to dig into the Java modularity stuff, I resisted. My gut instinct was not to get involved for a couple of reasons: 1. I am not really that interested in the space, sure, I want some of the advantages, but I am largely uninterested in how we get there and certainly don't have a lot of time or passion to invest in something I care this little about. 2. It is clear that some people in this space want a fight, which is fine, that's their prerogative. However, I suspected that the reason our involvement was requested was to further that aim, to stir up the space, in other words I suspected that we were being used to further other people's aims. Despite that, we got enough requests that we got involved, against my better judgment, and once again I am reassured that I can trust my gut instinct, and disappointed that I did not do so. So, where have we arrived now? After giving both sides a voice, after many hours of my own time invested in something I really just don't care that much about, and after trying to explain at every opportunity my own opinions, we seem to have ended up being used as a blunt instrument for political points scoring. I don't believe the situation has helped anyone, and I am irritated that I didn't follow my instinct, which I will now do. >From now on I recuse myself from anything involving OSGi, Jigsaw and Java modularity in general, unless it constitutes straight news (which we will always report), or something that is of particular technical interest to me. Keep it simple - that's my motto. Since this whole sorry affair has brought little but bad feelings all around I see absolutely no point in continuing along with it. I personally am seeing no benefit for me, and this is apparently getting way to personal for something I just don't care about when we see the kind of descriptions that have been on this thread. If the rest of the guys want to talk about the topic still - that's cool, but personally I have lost both interest and motivation in the whole sorry space, and I certainly don't want to see the Java Posse continue to be janked around and used for political ends. Dick On Jun 27, 1:57 am, Neil Bartlett <njbartl...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dick, > > As an OSGi supporter I also think Eric has gone a little far with this > blog post. It's clear to me at least that the JavaPosse was never > intended to be a "watch dog". You're just 4 guys podcasting about what > interests you, and your popularity and success speaks for itself. If > the "OSGi community" wants a podcast that satisfies our biases more > than yours then we should just damn well start one. I'm not under any > illusions that it would be able to catch up with you guys in > popularity any time soon. > > However if you're really being begged for interviews, then I think you > can afford to be a _little_ tougher on the interviewees. I'm not > talking about gotcha tactics or screwing people over, just asking them > to back up what they say and digging a little deeper. You don't need > to interview like Bill O'Reilly or even Jeremy Paxman, but an > occasional streak of Krishnan Guru-Murthy wouldn't be so bad. > > Cheers, > Neil > > On Jun 27, 12:13 am, Dick Wall <dickw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Wow - what a report. I really couldn't let this one go by without some > > comment. > > > Some choice pieces from the article: > > > "defend Jigsaw scathing, cynical, and even insulting comments about > > OSGi folks" > > > From everything (and I mean everything) I have observed so far, the > > scathing comes primarily from the OSGi followers, and not the main > > camp either, but a noisy group of people who seem to have injected > > themselves into the discussion. I certainly didn't pick up anything > > scathing in Mark or Alex's answers, nor in all fairness did I pick up > > anything from Peter Kriens or B.J. Hargrave when we interviewed them. > > As far as I can see, the key players in this game have been > > professional throughout. Opinions not matching your own do not > > constitute scathing cynicism, or insults, they are merely differing > > opinions. > > > "At first I figured the reason was that the Java Posse is not actually > > a technical forum, but is popular for its entertainment value, > > instead. But some of the other threads seemed to treat technical > > topics seriously" > > > You bet - I believe we have amassed a fantastic group of energetic > > people who are passionate about all aspects of the Java language, > > platform and community. Eric, I really believe you should reserve such > > judgment until you have been a member of the forums a little longer > > and joined in on some other threads that Jigsaw/OSGi. I would also > > point out that your comments about the forums not being technical but > > only for entertainment is a little insulting to the people here, Again > > - it's regrettable if not everyone sees it your way, but really isn't > > that just an opportunity to learn from others. > > > "Finally it occurred to me that the Java Posse is just probably more > > of a "lap dog" than a "watch dog"" > > > Right, this is the line that prompted the response, and respond I > > will. Firstly, you seem to be claiming insults, scathing and cynicism > > from Jigsaw (and us, and the forums), but I believe we have the best > > example of all three right here. I am an engineer with 20 years of > > experience, I am nobody's lapdog, nor are Carl, Joe and Tor I can > > assure you. In fact these are three of the finest professionals I have > > ever had the pleasure to work with - why do you suppose I wanted to do > > a podcast with them in the first place? > > > I really hope you can back up your statement here. What is it based > > on? We do not accept sponsorship (Atlassian beer-for-events > > awesomeness aside - but that is the only thing and would anyone > > serious begrudge our live audience members that)? I also would point > > out that just a few weeks before the Jigsaw interview, we did a > > similar interview with Peter and BJ for OSGi. Do you really believe > > that it was not fair and balanced to let Mark and Alex respond to that > > criticism (which, as I have mentioned, seemed professional and honest > > from both sides). Also, if you really believe we influence what ~3000 > > developers on this group think, I believe you have overestimated our > > reach. The Java Posse Google group is a fantastic discussion forum, > > and one of the things I am proudest of from the podcast, but I think > > that most people here have made up their own mind on things, and if > > you are finding resistance to your "one true way" perhaps that should > > be significant. > > > Thirdly, if you really believe we are "not biting the hand that feeds > > us" to get the "scoop" on news or people to interview, I would hope > > that common sense would indicate otherwise. Long gone are the days > > were we needed to beg for interviews, these days (seriously) it is all > > I can do to stay up to date with the requests (sorry folks, I do get > > backed up on this stuff some times because my real job gets in the > > way). I believe some of this has come from the fact that we do not > > practice gotcha tactics, try and screw people over or put words in > > their mouths. We remember who's interview it is and let them have > > their say. > > > I am really disappointed that you would come out of the gate swinging > > like this. I believe it doesn't show your cause in a good light either > > - such animosity towards people rarely makes friends. I hope you hang > > around long enough to see the value in the community we have built > > here, and maybe to work out that we are in fact nobody's lapdog. > > > Cheers > > > Dick > > > On Jun 26, 2:24 pm, "phil.swen...@gmail.com" <phil.swen...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >http://modualrit.blogspot.com/2009/06/jigsaw-posse.html --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. 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