One of my recent positions was as a Training Manager for Computer Sciences Corp. 
(CSC), one of the major software consulting firms in the US.  There I would teach 
consulting skills, database skills, and programming skills in Java, Web Development 
and even Cobol.

About two and one half years ago, CSC dismantled their Associate Training Program here 
in Chicago.  The demand for entry level consultants had dried up.  Just last year the 
large Anderson/Accenture Training Facility in St. Charles also closed its doors.  As I 
said before, this is a tight market!!

I have helped to form an IT Network here in Chicago, and am relating to you some of 
the experiences of over 200 compatriots in IT.

I have read closely some of the responses to your thread.  There are some wonderful 
suggestions.  The key to remember is to be creative.  The best way to get into an 
entry level IT position is to work for a company in some paralell capacity.  Then show 
you skills in that capacity.  Any IT manager worth working for will grab you up as 
soon as they can, since you are already an employee.  A degree no longer guarantees 
you a great job.  Companies need people of action, not just well trained workers.

  Steve

-------Original Message-------
From: Tim Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 02/04/03 02:43 AM
To: JDJList <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [jdjlist] gap between universities and employers ????

> 
> 
Thanks Steve for that bit of input.

Yeah -- I was just looking at the 3 IT employment websites that I have
access to here in Australia.

And seeing -- with Bachelors degree in Engineering in Software
Engineering -- what sort of jobs I should be able to get. I thought that
you
should be able to get a job as a "software engineer" if you graduate with
a
software engineering degree. A lot of jobs advertised on the 3 sites that
I
look through, advertise positions for "software engineers" but when you
look
at what the specifics are of what they say their job applicants "must
have",
it was as I mentioned before (below in me previous email) ( which I
included
with this one so that someone reading this would be able to follow the
train
of thought of this) that employers are wanting a whole lot of skills and
experience that new graduates just don't have and like me, have never
heard
of even in our undergraduate degree. And yet, they still say you "must
have
these skills".

What you said, was actually very interesting.

I just wanted to ask if you could perhaps point to any literature
(websites,
books, journal articles, conference papers, magazine articles) that talk
about what you mentioned in your email Steve ?

Or anyone else who might know anything documented about this ?



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Gawron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "JDJList" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:06 AM
Subject: [jdjlist] Re: gap between universities and employers ????


Most universities just do not spend enough time staying current with the
way
corporations are doing business.  Whether it is the time and energy
involved
in keeping abreast of what major businesses want or the difficulty in
finding qualified instructors for the current business skills with the
curriculum vitae and are willing to work for academic wages.  The problem
has existed as you described for years.

The current job market is a buyers market.  It means without the correct
basket of skills, they won't talk to you.  No one is willing to invest the
time to train a recent graduate who will likely leave in two or three
years.
This is reality!!

Statistically, 8 out of ten persons end up working outside of their field
of
study.  The above is a big contributor to this fact.

Good luck, and don't get too discouraged.  Sooner or later the market
changes.  Business is dynamic.  Companies must compete, or cease to exist.

  Steve Gawron

-------Original Message-------
From: "M. E. Zawadzki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 02/03/03 10:51 AM
To: JDJList <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [jdjlist] Re: gap between universities and employers ????

>
> You simply get a shit job for the first couple of years to get that
experience. It's part of life.
--- Tim Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just wanted to pose a question :-
>
> Have any of you found there to be a large gap between what universities
> produce (ie as graduates) and what employers want ?
>
> Like for example --- one employer wants someone who has experience with
> "Advantage Gen". I have no idea what this is and have never come across
it
> before. Maybe some of you might have heard of this ?
>
> And another employer wants someone who has skills with the "Rational
> toolset" . I am not talking about Rational Rose but about products like
:-
> TestManager, TeamTest, ClearCase, ClearQuest.
>
> These are just 2 examples of trying to illustrate the point that I am
> experiencing -- that employers seem to want a whole lot of "skills" that
are
> not taught at universities.
>
> I find this quite concerning.
>
> Also ofcourse there is the issue that almost all employers want someone
who
> already has "2 or 3 years of commercial experience".
>
> What happens to people who have just come out of university ? What sort
of
> job opportunities do they have when employers don't seem to want to
"give
> anything" ? ie they want someone who already knows about these new
products
> that a freshly graduated person has never heard of before.
>
> I don't know if it counts as "commercial experience" if for example your
> university has a final year
> project -- which is a "real life" problem with a real life client who
has
> come to the university with this problem ? I would hope that it is.
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> To change your JDJList options, please visit:
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> ____________________________________________________


=====

Mark Zawadzki Performance Engineer/DBA/Programmer extraordinaireâ?T
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 "Democracies die behind closed doors," - Judge Damon Keith

 "The people of this country, not special interest big money, should be
the source of all political power. Government must remain the domain of
the general citizenry, not a narrow elite." - Sen. Paul Wellstone



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