Re: the Catholic Church NJC

[sl . m]

No, I did NOT turn this into a discussion about religion. The thread was started by others, regarding Joni and to what extent, if any, Joni Mitchell's experience is comparable to the Magdalene Laundries. And it went on from there.

I do condemn any institution that promotes the idea that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and that perfectly natural behaviour is "wicked". For me, that is most religions (I would say that Judaism might be the exception here) and some forms of government.

For me, the individual is the primary social unit. Anything that oppresses the individual, tries to brainwash him/her, tries to make them feel inferior to some external idea (e.g, a god, the greater good etc) is to be avoided, IMO. In particular, I dislike any ideology that teaches there will be a better life AFTER this one - so this life doesn't matter. That is what is so sad about the suicide bombers (apart from the murders they commit) - that they are taking their own lives in search of the "real life" which is eternal and which begins after this one. And so they throw their whole lives away, the only lives they've got in my view. How sad.

And always, the leaders, the teachers and the parents aren't the ones actually doing it, just the kids.

Debra, I didn't say you claimed to be an expert on the Middle East. You're mis-remembering or mis-reading. There's no point in trying to stir it up again. We disagree - why not leave it at that, or else try to find points of agreement or constructive disagreement? I think the main reason we appear to be disagreeing is that, when talking about the Catholic church, I'm not talking about any individual Catholic, priest or Pope, but about the institution. Similarly, when talking about Islam, I'm talking about Islamist ideology (note: Islamist, not Moslem in general), which I find frightening and primitive. To what extent individual Moslems buy into it is not the point.

It should go without saying that there are ALWAYS individual Moslems, Catholics, or whatever, who go against the grain, and who may eventually be able to change things for the better. For example, it was the imam of the mosque in Brixton, London who tried (before 9/11) to make the British government take notice of the extremist version of Islam being taught in the Finsbury Park mosque, where Richard Reid, the shoe bomber and one of the 9/11 hijackers worshipped, and where ricin and bio-chemical protection suits were recently found. But he wasn't listened to, because the British government didn't want to be "insensitive" to the Moslem community, and the rest is history.

In a debate about an INSTITUTION, it shouldn't be necessary to go on repeating that the experience of individuals can be different.

Sarah