Well, the problem is that AB's "JSB" tunins is not hypothetical, but is
rather based on a real (albeit rare) angelique tuning, that does in fact
remove all difficulties from JSB's lute works.
I personally find it plausible.
RT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <brai...@osu.edu>
To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:15 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Wow. I don't believe there is good evidence Bach wrote anything at all
specifically for proper lutes. The case for some of the "lute" works being
intended for hypothetical lute seems better than some others. But still,
tablatures don't exist in Bach's hand. The fact that a newly invented lute
type makes playing some lautenwerk piece "quite playable" doesn't seem to
lend anything to discussions of Bach's intent in his own time.
What about the six mandolin suites? Bach admired Vivaldi who wrote several
works for mandolin. Handel used it in an oratorio. Surely, Bach must have
composed six suites for mandolin just as for the cello and violin, eh? We
have just yet to find any of them. ...Or perhaps he wrote dozens of suites
for cello just as he did for harpsichord (English, French, partitas, etc.).
It will be a great day when those dozens of missing cello suites are
uncovered and transcribed by guitarists everywhere.
Eugene
-----Original Message-----
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Mark Wheeler
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:27 AM
To: 'Sauvage Valéry'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Well if you find playing "a guitar in form of a lute saying it is a lute"
strange then have a look at this promotion text from the same lutenist..
"It is assumed that Bach, just as for the violin and the cello, composed
six
solo suites for lute. But only a few of these incredibly difficult lute
compositions have been preserved. Eric Bellocq accepted the challenge and
reconstructed a complete suite cycle. For this purpose, he had a 'luito
forte' built, which all of a sudden makes these compositions quite
playable!"
Who assumes that there are 6 solo suites for lute, where is the evidence?
All of the surviving Bach compositions or arrangements have been recorded
many times, so they are playable on a standard baroque lute.
Eric's text is of course absolute hogwash, but it is the sort of thing
that
some classical promoters probably lap up, not surprising considering that
huge portions of the mega-narrative of classical music dreamed up in the
19th century is equally ridiculous. But wasn't one of the aims of the
early
music movement to try to get beyond these assumptions and myths.
Mark
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
Auftrag
von Sauvage Valéry
Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. Dezember 2009 15:58
An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
I'm not against guitar and guitar players (as a guitar player myself, on
romantic intrument ;-) but I don't understand why play a guitar in form of
a
lute saying it is a lute, as I find my normal lute "forte" enough in
itself,
that's all. And after, eveyone makes whatever he wants...
V.
----- Original Message -----
From: <terli...@aol.com>
To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 3:30 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: terli...@aol.com
> To: chriswi...@yahoo.com
> Sent: Sun, Dec 20, 2009 9:22 am
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
>
>
>
>
> I write at the risk of being gummed to death by a horde of irate
> lutenists:
>
>
> I don't know what kind of guitars and guitar playing lutenists here have
> been exposed to here but there is a wide variety of types of guitars and
> playing styles. Hauser style guitar guitars are very good for playing
some
> lute music. Smallman type guitars are less good for playing most lute
> music. To play lute music decently on guitar takes a certain
touch...there
> are players that can do it.
> The guitar (unamplified) works great great in ensemble playing e.g
Boulez:
> Le marteau sans maître: Webern op.18,
> Takemitsu: Ring for Lute,flute and guitar...
> Best,
> Mark Delpriora
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: chriswi...@yahoo.com
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Sauvage Valéry <sauvag...@orange.fr>
> Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:18 pm
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
>
>
> Valery,
>
> --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Sauvage Valéry <sauvag...@orange.fr> wrote:
>> Ok forte,
>> we can hear it, but sounds like a guitar (single strung for
>> the one he used).
>> So why not play the guitar ? modern and loud instrument you
>> can play with nails...
>
> Really? I've found the modern classical guitar to be a really, really
> awful
> ensemble instrument when dealing with anything else other than other
> classical
> guitars or one other instrument/voice. While the signal coming from it
> may be
> technically louder than most types of lutes, it is designed to emphasize
> the
> lower partials so that the sound is literally swallowed up by other
modern
> instruments. This sort of dark timbre can be very effective for a
certain
> portion (but not all) of the solo repertoire, but it really loses its
> charm in
> other situations. This is why A) it MUST be played with nails B) even
> then it
> doesn't project particularly well and C) you often hear the instrument
> amplified
> in even small ensembles.
>
> If you're going to amplify it, what's the point of using that type of
> guitar
> (unless you want to make the amplification part of the effect and timbre
> itself,
> a la George Crumb)? This is why I haven't used a classical guitar in
any
> of my
> ensemble music for years. A steel-string guitar works very well
> unamplified in
> a small ensemble and the electric guitar has no volume limitations at
all.
> Contemporary composers would find much of interest in these instruments
> and
> modern classical guitarists would be well advised to think of them as
> alternate
> versions of their instrument. Unfortunately, classical players often
> perceive
> them as some kind of threat from outside the "official" guitar world.
>
> I haven't found this same problem with lutes or theorbos. The emphasis
of
> higher partials means that the sound on both can cut through quite well.
> Play
> close to the bridge and you can be heard most of the time. I've been
> thinking
> of writing a duo for lute and modern guitar. Maybe now's the time to
> investigate the project.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "wolfgang wiehe" <wie-w...@gmx.de>
>> To: <terli...@aol.com>;
>> <r.turov...@verizon.net>;
>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 8:05 PM
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
>>
>>
>>
>> I heard a "liuto forte" this year at our DLG meeting on
>> "Burg
>> Sternberg". Hmm, not louder than my g-lute...;-)
>> Greetings
>> W.
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
>> Im
>> Auftrag von terli...@aol.com
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 19:41
>> An: r.turov...@verizon.net;
>> lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
>>
>>
>> OR suitable for a guitarist who is NOT sick of the guitar
>> repertoire!
>> . and is happy with finger nails.
>>
>>
>> Roman, Did you go to the the demonstration of the liuto
>> forte hat
>> occurred at the Met Museum a year or 3 ago?
>>
>>
>> I missed it.
>>
>>
>> Mark Delpriora
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@verizon.net>
>> To: Lutelist <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Sent: Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:51 am
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
>>
>>
>> It is a single-strung lute and guitar hybrid designed by
>> Andre Burguete,
>> that aproximates lute sound while purporting to have the
>> volume of the
>> guitar. It uses nylon overspun with fine steel wire, and
>> has some
>> interesting and useful peculiarities in the bridge and
>> soundboard
>> construction.
>> Fixed metal frets are supposedly less dampening to the
>> sound
>> (negligibly).
>> This technology might yield a nice and loud theorbo in ET.
>> But one really misses the overtone palette of double
>> strings.
>> It is a very suitable instrument for a guitarist who is
>> sick of the
>> guitar repertoire, but is unwilling to part with his
>> nails.
>>
>> http://www.liuto-forte.com/
>> There are a number of notable converts to it: Oliver
>> Holzenburg, Luciano
>> Contini et al.
>> RT
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Winheld"
>> <dwinh...@comcast.net>
>> To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:31 AM
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
>>
>> > Alright, I'll bite- What in God's name is Liuto
>> Forte? (I must have
>> > been out of the office for this one)
>> > thanks, Dan
>> > -- >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To get on or off this list see list information at
>> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
