So we can conclude that the mandora (Schlegel's type 3) was in all probability neither the intended instrument in Betrachte, nor a continuo instrument in Saxony.
Regards Stephan -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Markus Lutz Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 22:08 An: 'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu' Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel It is very important to tell between the different instruments. There are 3 to differ: 1. The colascione, which are long necked instruments with 3 often single strings, only used for bass 2. The galizona (gallichon), that was used as bass instrument especially by Telemann and played especially the bass lines, but only few chords (also called theorbo in some sources) 3. The mandora, which was used especially in South of Germany and Austria for solo and ensemble music, from 1720 on I'm sure Andreas Schlegel can explain everything in detail. The terminology is quite confusing, as the terms have been used differently in different parts of Europe. The mandore (3.) probably wasn't used as continuo instrument. Best regards Markus Am 19.03.2018 um 21:52 schrieb Ron Andrico: > Umm, I would rather not have my words rearranged. I meant what I wrote > previously. > > A quick look at the articles on archlute and on continuo in the Grove > online reinforce the accepted premise that the archlute was not known > to be present or used for continuo playing in the German states in the > 18th century. > > In the Grove music online article on Continuo by Peter Williams and > David Ledbetter: > "In the Dresden of Heinichen and Zelenka (c171030) the (Catholic) > court chapel employed a continuo group of two or more cellos, bassoons, > violoni and theorbos, though the theorbos fell out of use in the 1730s > after the arrival of Hasse." > In the Grove music online article on Mandora by James Tyler: > "A type of bass lute of the 18th century used for continuo > accompaniment and solos, particularly in Germanic regions." > ... > "Contemporary references to the mandora clearly indicate that it was > commonly used for continuo, which makes a great deal of sense > considering that its pitch and the flexibility afforded by its tuning > made it ideal for playing the bass lines of the new musical styles of > the late Baroque and early Classical periods. As well as chordal > continuo accompaniments, it was also used to play single-line melodic > basses, as a bassoon or cello would." > ... > "In 1709 Johann Kuhnau requested the purchase of a Colocion for the > Thomasschule in Leipzig in order to have more effective bass support > for the singers (ibid., 73). Mattheson (op.cit., 277) highly recommends > the calichon over the normal lute for continuo support in chamber > music, and Telemann wrote two concertos for two flutes and strings, for > which the bass lines are marked for Calchedon or bassoon." > RA > > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf > of Stephan Olbertz <stephan.olbe...@web.de> > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 8:20 PM > To: 'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu' > Cc: 'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel > > Yes, so it should read > "the part was [very probable] not conceived for archlute but rather > [the baroque lute, or possibly even] the mandora [although we have no > evidence for the mandora to be used as an obbligato instrument in > Saxony]" > Regards > Stephan > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > Auftrag von Howard Posner > Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 20:39 > Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel > The only evidence available about Leipzig in the early 1700s is that > the mandora/gallichon was the commonly used lute continuo instrument. > Bachs predecessor as thomaschule cantor, johann kuhnau, asked the town > council for money to buy a couple of them so he wouldnt have to keep > borrowing them. Somebody, probably mr. Hodgson, has pointed out > secondary sources that say the request was granted, though the sources > on which they rely arent clear on the point. > Is anyone aware of evidence for archlutes in 18th-century Saxony? > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 19, 2018, at 12:07, Stephan Olbertz <stephan.olbe...@web.de> > wrote: > > > > Ron, > > > > " the part was not conceived for > > archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes" > > > > Do you have any evidence for this? (As I am sure Martyn would > ask...) > > > > Regards > > Stephan > > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > Im > > Auftrag von Ron Andrico > > Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 19:15 > > An: Eloy Cruz; Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel > > > > Playing the bass along with Bach's figuration is a minor challenge > but > > it's entirely possible with a fingered F-sharp and E-natural. As I > am > > sure Martyn Hodgson will point out, the part was not conceived for > > archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes. I > understand > > that the Italian archlute as we know it was not likely to be > present in > > Bach's Germany. > > > > RA > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de
