So we can conclude that the mandora (Schlegel's type 3) was in all
probability neither the intended instrument in Betrachte, nor a continuo
instrument in Saxony.
Regards
Stephan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag
von Markus Lutz
Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 22:08
An: 'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu'
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
It is very important to tell between the different instruments.
There are 3 to differ:
1. The colascione, which are long necked instruments with 3 often single
strings, only used for bass 2. The galizona (gallichon), that was used as
bass instrument especially by Telemann and played especially the bass lines,
but only few chords (also called theorbo in some sources) 3. The mandora,
which was used especially in South of Germany and Austria for solo and
ensemble music, from 1720 on
I'm sure Andreas Schlegel can explain everything in detail.
The terminology is quite confusing, as the terms have been used differently
in different parts of Europe.
The mandore (3.) probably wasn't used as continuo instrument.
Best regards
Markus
Am 19.03.2018 um 21:52 schrieb Ron Andrico:
Umm, I would rather not have my words rearranged. I meant what I
wrote
previously.
A quick look at the articles on archlute and on continuo in the Grove
online reinforce the accepted premise that the archlute was not known
to be present or used for continuo playing in the German states in the
18th century.
In the Grove music online article on Continuo by Peter Williams and
David Ledbetter:
"In the Dresden of Heinichen and Zelenka (c1710–30) the (Catholic)
court chapel employed a continuo group of two or more cellos,
bassoons,
violoni and theorbos, though the theorbos fell out of use in the 1730s
after the arrival of Hasse."
In the Grove music online article on Mandora by James Tyler:
"A type of bass lute of the 18th century used for continuo
accompaniment and solos, particularly in Germanic regions."
...
"Contemporary references to the mandora clearly indicate that it was
commonly used for continuo, which makes a great deal of sense
considering that its pitch and the flexibility afforded by its tuning
made it ideal for playing the bass lines of the new musical styles of
the late Baroque and early Classical periods. As well as chordal
continuo accompaniments, it was also used to play single-line melodic
basses, as a bassoon or cello would."
...
"In 1709 Johann Kuhnau requested the purchase of a ‘Colocion’ for the
Thomasschule in Leipzig in order to have more effective bass support
for the singers (ibid., 73). Mattheson (op.cit., 277) highly
recommends
the ‘calichon’ over the normal lute for continuo support in chamber
music, and Telemann wrote two concertos for two flutes and strings,
for
which the bass lines are marked for ‘Calchedon’ or bassoon."
RA
__________________________________________________________________
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
of Stephan Olbertz <stephan.olbe...@web.de>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 8:20 PM
To: 'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu'
Cc: 'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu'
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
Yes, so it should read
"the part was [very probable] not conceived for archlute but rather
[the baroque lute, or possibly even] the mandora [although we have no
evidence for the mandora to be used as an obbligato instrument in
Saxony]"
Regards
Stephan
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
Im
Auftrag von Howard Posner
Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 20:39
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
The only evidence available about Leipzig in the early 1700s is that
the mandora/gallichon was the commonly used lute continuo instrument.
Bach’s predecessor as thomaschule cantor, johann kuhnau, asked the
town
council for money to buy a couple of them so he wouldn’t have to keep
borrowing them. Somebody, probably mr. Hodgson, has pointed out
secondary sources that say the request was granted, though the sources
on which they rely aren’t clear on the point.
Is anyone aware of evidence for archlutes in 18th-century Saxony?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 19, 2018, at 12:07, Stephan Olbertz <stephan.olbe...@web.de>
wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> " the part was not conceived for
> archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes"
>
> Do you have any evidence for this? (As I am sure Martyn would
ask...)
>
> Regards
> Stephan
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
Im
> Auftrag von Ron Andrico
> Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 19:15
> An: Eloy Cruz; Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
>
> Playing the bass along with Bach's figuration is a minor challenge
but
> it's entirely possible with a fingered F-sharp and E-natural. As
I
am
> sure Martyn Hodgson will point out, the part was not conceived for
> archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes. I
understand
> that the Italian archlute as we know it was not likely to be
present in
> Bach's Germany.
>
> RA
>
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