Then the whole secondary audio isn't all what its cracked up to be? On Jan 21, 2013, at 10:19 AM, Christine Grassman <cgrassman1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know that in the UK, quite a lot of movies and television programs are > described. Given that much of the audio description, except that done by > WGBH, is narrated by a British narrator, I imagine most of it comes from the > UK. > I think the main bone of contention here is "legally and fully available". > *Some* (quite minimal) content is legally available, but for most, even these > crumbs are not fully accessible, and for most, not accessible at all. > Living in a household which consists of four blind and visually impaired > people, I resent paying the fees for TWC that I do while not being able to > watch programming which is described. My children cannot get as much out of > documentaries they are directed to watch by their teachers. At school, a > teacher or fellow student is available to describe for them, but not at home. > This is unacceptable; I am paying the same as my neighbors, but am receiving > much, much less for my money. Further, the tech folks at TWC haven't a clue > what audio description is (ditto supervisors). > Fully available? Not according to my dictionary or experience. > As pointed out previously, not everyone has modern equipment with a secondary > audio channel, and many places choose a foregoing language feed rather than > description, in the rare cases when the latter is in fact "legally available". > Christine > > On Jan 21, 2013, at 11:06 AM, Devin Prater <d.pra...@me.com> wrote: > >> Well, the thing for me is, that if I can get the DVS on the TV, then fine, >> wonderful. I'll surely use it sometimes. But what about when I'm at school, >> and I want to watch something? I go to a blind school, so I stay in a dorm >> all through the week. What do I do there? All the other kids watch spungebob >> or whatever, so I just mainly stream my content, which up to now has just >> been music and stuff, which I didn't really stream but rather just got from >> iTunes. But now that I'm slightly interested in the whole TV thing, what is >> there there? No one at the school knows about the whole FCC thing, and I >> really don't think they'd go through the trouble of getting it on there TVs. >> Must I pay for Serotek, when the sited get the same and much more content >> when they want it? I know for a fact that Serotek doesn't have all the star >> trek episodes that have been described. I am also curious as to where they >> got the content they do have from. Would it be possible that they have it >> illegally, and we are paying for an illegal service? >> On Jan 21, 2013, at 9:57 AM, Karen Lewellen <klewel...@shellworld.net> wrote: >> >>> read your own posts Donna, particularly those about the value "to *us.*" >>> what *us* can you possibly mean? >>> Many in this thread have stated plainly that they have no problem >>> whatsoever breaking any law they feel prevents them from having something >>> they want, using and stealing protected content...by your dictionary then, >>> they are included in your "*us*." >>> My point has been that for *me* personally there is no relationship between >>> comfort and stealing, the same can be achieved without the use of stolen >>> property, and the same is already done over the airways. The latter >>> particularly is something the blindi-TV people are telling lies about in an >>> effort to attract people to their site. >>> I documented for those who asked the existence daily of described content >>> fully and legally available. Reachable without violating any laws and if >>> supported possibly matching even your idea of comfort depending on how you >>> define comfort. >>> My point has been, and I have no issue whatsoever owning my opinions >>> without the need to create an *us* around them is that the content is >>> there. support the content legally and there can be more of it, faster and >>> easier. Demonstrate that those who have copyright concerns have a reason >>> to fear, supporting a service rooting its activity in lies for example, >>> and you justify the copyright holders concerns. >>> >>> I cannot speak to your personal Morals Donna, I can say though that I >>> respect your right to them. as long as you do not project them on to me by >>> way of an association that does not exist between ahem *us* . at all. As >>> long as you do not use them to justify violating the rights of others for >>> the sake of your personal comfort...including me or anyone else in your >>> definition of personal comfort. >>> I leave you to read your own posts and discover where that came from, and >>> examine within yourself why it is so hard for *you* to own your choices >>> without needing to create an *us* to support them. >>> I know firmly that nothing you say here applies to me already smiles. >>> The only thing we have in common is our humanity and the freedom to live >>> differently that comes along with it. >>> You say, reduces the value for *us* not reduces the value for me >>> personally. If you cannot understand or choose not to understand the >>> difference in that sentence...well. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Donna Goodin wrote: >>> >>>> Where the **** did that come from? >>>> >>>> I haven't made a single generalization about how others should or should >>>> not live, all that's come from you. Or perhaps you don't consider >>>> accusing others of stealing passing judgment? >>>> >>>> FWIW, I find my life to be quite wonderful, and yes, at times "unique and >>>> magical". I just don't happen to believe that being comfortable streaming >>>> online content makes me a moral degenerate. >>>> Donna >>>> >>>> On Jan 21, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Karen Lewellen <klewel...@shellworld.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Donna, >>>>> Why are you so invested in reducing every persons experience of sight >>>>> loss to your own? >>>>> I think you discover every day, if you so choose that is, that how one >>>>> lives with a situation is as unique and magical as they desire. >>>>> I personally have climbed no mountains, played golf tennis, or gone >>>>> skiing lately...but I am not about to decide those who do this, and >>>>> experience sight loss, are less independent because they do. >>>>> Perhaps you should examine for yourself what it is about other people >>>>> doing things differently that bothers you so much? >>>>> >>>>> Karen >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Donna Goodin wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Karen, >>>>>> >>>>>> Why are you so invested in insulting the rest of the world? I think >>>>>> that you've made your point quite clearly. The fact that some of us may >>>>>> not agree with you does not mean that we are all self-pitying, >>>>>> unscrupulous, thieves. >>>>>> Donna >>>>>> On Jan 21, 2013, at 8:22 AM, Karen Lewellen <klewel...@shellworld.net> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> But it can. even more independently than the reprehensible excuse for >>>>>>> stealing that is blindi-TV. >>>>>>> Depending of course on how the individual in question experiences their >>>>>>> blindness and writes their dictionary of independence. >>>>>>> Surely you do not think all individuals with a sight loss diagnoses >>>>>>> are exactly the same? the definition alone makes that perspective >>>>>>> impossible, limited, and counter productive. >>>>>>> As a post I shared ages back expressed, all humans are dependent on >>>>>>> each other in one fashion or another. This is more beneficial to >>>>>>> understand than creating false concepts of any experience that >>>>>>> translate into exclusion. especially based on someone Else's >>>>>>> definition of independence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> us who? lol! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, 21 Jan 2013, Donna Goodin wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But, if that content cannot be independently accessed by a blind >>>>>>>> individual, then it's value to us decreases significantly. >>>>>>>> Donna >>>>>>>> On Jan 20, 2013, at 10:47 PM, Karen Lewellen >>>>>>>> <klewel...@shellworld.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> consider asking for a supervisor Alex, it is a Holiday down there >>>>>>>>> tomorrow smiles. >>>>>>>>> Still it is support that the claim regarding described content being >>>>>>>>> virtually nonexistent made by the blinditv people is very wrong. >>>>>>>>> I feel sure the list is older, it goes back to early October of last >>>>>>>>> year. >>>>>>>>> the link from the aCB site which I can post too lists things by the >>>>>>>>> day, but it is a google drive application. >>>>>>>>> I can share the link anyway though if there is interest . >>>>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013, Alex Hall wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the lists. I'll have to call up Time Warner tomorrow and >>>>>>>>>> see what they have to say regarding enabling described content, then >>>>>>>>>> test it out Tuesday when Big Bang Theory is on (as that's the only >>>>>>>>>> show on the list that interests me). Who knows, they might have more >>>>>>>>>> content available now, though I doubt that the Syfy channel makes it >>>>>>>>>> into the top tier. >>>>>>>>>> On Jan 20, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Karen Lewellen >>>>>>>>>> <klewel...@shellworld.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Okay, >>>>>>>>>>> last one tonight. a tiny bit of data and I do mean tiny. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act of >>>>>>>>>>> 2010 reinstates the FCC's involvement in providing rules for >>>>>>>>>>> video description. Under the rules, affiliates in the top 25 >>>>>>>>>>> markets and the top five-rated cable networks will have to >>>>>>>>>>> provide at least 50 hours of video described programming per >>>>>>>>>>> quarter, starting July 1, 2012.^[8] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> this translates into at least 4 hours per week. >>>>>>>>>>> Now, this is only a swift listing and is slightly dated. >>>>>>>>>>> You will note that TBS has big bang theory in reruns, given this >>>>>>>>>>> list was about 3 months into the rules it makes sense that CBS >>>>>>>>>>> would be running them now too. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ABC: >>>>>>>>>>> * Don't Trust the B---- in Apartment 23 >>>>>>>>>>> * Extreme Makeover: Home Edition >>>>>>>>>>> * Happy Endings >>>>>>>>>>> * Last Man Standing >>>>>>>>>>> * The Middle >>>>>>>>>>> * Modern Family >>>>>>>>>>> * Nashville >>>>>>>>>>> * The Neighbors >>>>>>>>>>> * Secret Millionaire >>>>>>>>>>> * Shark Tank >>>>>>>>>>> * Suburgatory >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> CBS: >>>>>>>>>>> * Criminal Minds >>>>>>>>>>> * CSI: Crime Scene Investigation >>>>>>>>>>> * NCIS >>>>>>>>>>> * NCIS: Los Angeles >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Disney Channel: >>>>>>>>>>> * A.N.T. Farm >>>>>>>>>>> * Austin & Ally >>>>>>>>>>> * Doc McStuffins >>>>>>>>>>> * Dog With a Blog >>>>>>>>>>> * Fish Hooks >>>>>>>>>>> * Good Luck Charlie >>>>>>>>>>> * Gravity Falls >>>>>>>>>>> * Jake and the Never Land Pirates >>>>>>>>>>> * Jessie >>>>>>>>>>> * Little Einsteins >>>>>>>>>>> * Mickey Mouse Clubhouse >>>>>>>>>>> * Phineas and Ferb >>>>>>>>>>> * Shake It Up >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Fox: >>>>>>>>>>> * American Dad! >>>>>>>>>>> * Bob's Burgers >>>>>>>>>>> * Bones >>>>>>>>>>> * The Cleveland Show >>>>>>>>>>> * Family Guy >>>>>>>>>>> * The Following >>>>>>>>>>> * Glee >>>>>>>>>>> * Hell's Kitchen >>>>>>>>>>> * Hotel Hell >>>>>>>>>>> * Kitchen Nightmares >>>>>>>>>>> * MasterChef >>>>>>>>>>> * The Mindy Project >>>>>>>>>>> * New Girl >>>>>>>>>>> * The Simpsons >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> NBC: >>>>>>>>>>> * 30 Rock >>>>>>>>>>> * Animal Practice >>>>>>>>>>> * Betty White's Off Their Rockers >>>>>>>>>>> * Chicago Fire >>>>>>>>>>> * Community >>>>>>>>>>> * Deception >>>>>>>>>>> * Go On >>>>>>>>>>> * Grimm >>>>>>>>>>> * Guys with Kids >>>>>>>>>>> * Law & Order: Special Victims Unit >>>>>>>>>>> * Parenthood >>>>>>>>>>> * Saving Hope >>>>>>>>>>> * The Office >>>>>>>>>>> * Parks and Recreation >>>>>>>>>>> * Up All Night >>>>>>>>>>> * Whitney >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Nickelodeon: >>>>>>>>>>> * The Backyardigans >>>>>>>>>>> * Bubble Guppies >>>>>>>>>>> * Dora the Explorer >>>>>>>>>>> * The Fairly OddParents >>>>>>>>>>> * Go, Diego, Go! >>>>>>>>>>> * Max and Ruby >>>>>>>>>>> * Mike the Knight >>>>>>>>>>> * Ned's Declassified School Survival Guide >>>>>>>>>>> * Rugrats >>>>>>>>>>> * Splatalot! >>>>>>>>>>> * Team Umizoomi >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> TBS: >>>>>>>>>>> * The Big Bang Theory (reruns) >>>>>>>>>>> * Tyler Perry's For Better or Worse >>>>>>>>>>> * Tyler Perry's House of Payne >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> TNT: >>>>>>>>>>> * The Closer >>>>>>>>>>> * Law & Order (reruns) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Turner Classic Movies: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * Various films, listed on WGBH's DVS page on TCM >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> USA Network: >>>>>>>>>>> * Common Law >>>>>>>>>>> * Covert Affairs >>>>>>>>>>> * CSI: Crime Scene Investigation (reruns) >>>>>>>>>>> * Law & Order: Special Victims Unit (reruns) >>>>>>>>>>> * NCIS (reruns) >>>>>>>>>>> * NCIS: Los Angeles (reruns) >>>>>>>>>>> * Psych >>>>>>>>>>> * Royal Pains >>>>>>>>>>> * Suits >>>>>>>>>>> Again its dated, but see what I mean? >>>>>>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013, Alex Hall wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> At the risk of being off-topic, could you provide us with some >>>>>>>>>>>> popular shows that have audio description? Specifically, I enjoy >>>>>>>>>>>> Star Trek, Doctor Who, Star Gate (well, I would enjoy that one >>>>>>>>>>>> were it described), and the CBS show The Big Bang Theory. To my >>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge, none of these are ever described. If they are, I would >>>>>>>>>>>> love to know about it. I can figure out how to enable the >>>>>>>>>>>> descriptions if indeed there are descriptions to be heard, but I >>>>>>>>>>>> don't think these shows regularly air with any descriptions. >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps my cable company (TWC) would know, but I have never had >>>>>>>>>>>> much luck asking basic tech support about accessibility - they >>>>>>>>>>>> never seem to know what I'm talking about. I do agree that blind >>>>>>>>>>>> people cannot have it both ways, but exactly what are we supposed >>>>>>>>>>>> to do in the years it takes standard programming to become >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible? >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 20, 2013, at 8:52 PM, Karen Lewellen >>>>>>>>>>>> <klewel...@shellworld.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on where you are, the source of your programming, your >>>>>>>>>>>>> cable provider or satellites provider is required to make that >>>>>>>>>>>>> work for you. >>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact you can file an FCC complaint now if they do not. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionally, efforts going on to make those menus work easily >>>>>>>>>>>>> will not get much support if people are just going to circulate >>>>>>>>>>>>> avenues to stolen property. >>>>>>>>>>>>> And you wonder why the author's guild fears making books work? >>>>>>>>>>>>> What is keeping programs with audio descriptions from getting >>>>>>>>>>>>> sponsorship the way captioning does? >>>>>>>>>>>>> The attitude that those getting the description do not deserve to >>>>>>>>>>>>> be treated like the rest of the consumer marketplace. >>>>>>>>>>>>> They can and will just steal it and circulate it as if this is >>>>>>>>>>>>> perfectly fine. >>>>>>>>>>>>> You cannot have it both ways, either you deserve a respected >>>>>>>>>>>>> place at the audience market table regardless of how differently >>>>>>>>>>>>> you view that table, or you deserve the stolen crumbs from that >>>>>>>>>>>>> table. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013, Devin Prater wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for that. If I can figure out how the menus on my TV >>>>>>>>>>>>>> work, I will certainly use what the FCC has provided. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 20, 2013, at 7:32 PM, Karen Lewellen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewel...@shellworld.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you bet it really matters. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes they do. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As of July 2012, all five broadcast networks and the same cable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> networks must provide audio described content, and they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing i, every single week. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all television stations in the top 25 markets stateside must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide the content as well...with additional markets joining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each year. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why should anyone invest in population who is simply going to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steal property. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cable providers and satellites providers must insure that you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can access the described content. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do not have the link to post now, but program listings and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> details are on the ACB website. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frankly I find this exclusionary and distasteful. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consumers who happen to score differently on an eye chart, must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be segregated to stolen property on the Internet Never mind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that Hollywood films and television shows air each week with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> described content. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you so lacking in personal dignity that you feel stolen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> property is all you deserve? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Especially since the entire thing could be done legally? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is to some extent already. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one is going to value you if you do not value yourselves, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> document that there is a market, use what the FCC is doing to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enhance the ability for everyone to enjoy television as they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choose. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013, Devin Prater wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm. Does it really matter? No one else seems to provide this, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do they? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 20, 2013, at 7:03 PM, Karen Lewellen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewel...@shellworld.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ahem, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do have the legal right to run this service with this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Jan 2013, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are their any UK channels? Do you think we could have an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IOS App so that we can watch this service anywhere we go and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're not tied to the computer? I like this service. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kawal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 20 Jan 2013, at 07:51 PM, Devin Prater <d.pra...@me.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do like this service. Its pretty good, I can finally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> watch sci-fi, and therefore can watch star trek! :) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 20, 2013, at 12:49 PM, Matt Dierckens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <matt.dierck...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi folks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been given permission to post about this from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another list. This is a great service. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Check it out and please spread the word. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blindy.tv >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you ever wanted to watch TV with audio description >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but can't get the track on your tv? Well, now you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can...sort of. Have a look at this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.blindy.tv >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This project was created so that everyone could watch TV >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> episodes with audio description. Every show (except the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brain channel) has described content. You can switch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> channels just like with an actual TV. So far, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their are 5 channels. Comedy, Drama, Si-fi, Brain and ETC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More may be added if needed. Each show is either 30 or 60 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minutes long. After the show their are commercials (better >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than on TV, I can promise you that), a news segment or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comedy skit, and some instrumental music at the top and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bottom of each hour. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To access this place, you can do one of two things: You >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can either go to the website linked above and used the web >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players, or, if you'd rather listen in your media player >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of choice, place this link into it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This will load all channels, and you can use the next and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous controls to move through the different channels. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://blindy.tv/all.m3u >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please give any suggestions or criticisms you have. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feedback is always welcome. If you like the service, let >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> us know. If you do not, tell us what we could do to fix >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it up. Please spread the word if you like it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enjoy! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my mac >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter: matt692 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, 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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Have a great day, >>>>>>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) >>>>>>>>>>>> mehg...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To 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