Hi, You lost me here. Are you saying that IOS accessibility has degraded to the point where blind specific solutions are preferred by you? I'm just not sure were you were going with your comment.
Thanks. Ricardo Walker rica...@appletothecore.info Twitter:@apple2thecore www.appletothecore.info On Feb 16, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote: > Cheree Heppe here: > Did money concerns spur the implementation of accessible IOS? If not, what, > then? What has changed between then and now? The money haasn't. Think > about outcomes and shifting power bases. Would you want to engineer > breaches, stumbles to return consumers to specialized tech that employs the > specialists who truly have blindness so well understood? So the tech costs a > thousand times more -- and doesn't work as well as the mainstream. I have > experienced good tech and like it that way. > Would a little U-Tube demo video prove instructive? > > Regards, > Cheree Heppe > > > Sent from my IPhone 4S > > On 16/02/2013, at 9:05, Richard Ring <richr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > John has pretty much expressed my feelings here. I've used Android with > Talkback, and to me, it's not ready for prime time. I say that only because I > know some Android users who say that the reason for my point of view > regarding Android stems from the fact that I don't know what I'm doing. Now, > to the topic. I have used the app store, and I have always been able to > accomplish what I wanted to. The same with the iBook store. My definition of > accessibility is simple. If I can use it it's accessible. If I can't it's > not. Iam still amazed that I can use a touch screen at all, and Apple made > this possible. > We are a small minority, like a drop of water in the Pacific ocean. > Certainly, we should never be afraid to criticize any company, but we should > also realize that in the vast scheme of things, where money is all, we don't > matter all that much! > You can have an off day, but you can't have a day off! ---The Art of Fielding > Sent from my Mac Book Pro > richr...@gmail.com > > On Feb 16, 2013, at 10:26 AM, John Panarese <jpanar...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> this entire topic, as usual, is coming back to the subjective in nature. >> What one considers accessible or not differs from another person. I think >> to make a statement that accessibility is going backwards in iOS is strictly >> a subjective position based on personal opinion and no real facts. For >> every point one can make claiming things are getting worse, someone else can >> come along to disprove that point or make additional points that counter >> that argument entirely. >> >> Apple is not perfect. Bugs exist and will continue to exist. That is the >> nature of software. Sometimes, old bugs return. Anyone who has been around >> the generation and evolution of software products surely understands this >> reality. Things get broken. Things then get fixed. Then, they can be broken >> again because working on one part of the code effects another and the >> engineers don't necessary see that until the software is being used on a >> wider scale. >> >> As someone who trains users on iDevices, I can tell you that a lot of the >> assumed issues with devices often comes down to basic user error. In no way >> am I meaning to be insulting or assuming with this statement either. I am >> far from perfect and would never claim otherwise. From experience, though, >> something as simple as the way one holds the phone to use it can lead to >> problems with table indexes or locating buttons and such because of finger >> placement or the angle the device is being operated. People will sometimes >> tell me that controls move around the screen or double taps aren't working >> or sliders are not changing only to learn that they are creating the issues >> because they are not holding the phone steady or do not realize they shift >> finger placement or allow extra fingers to brush the edges of the screen. >> >> I have become so aware of the little things as a trainer that it has made >> me a much better user simply because I have to help those who are having >> issues. The App store and iBooks store, for example, are a much nicer and >> more accessible version now. I find it much easier to teach users how to >> deal with either store now. As long as you understand the general layout of >> the screens and know where you are, there are no accessibility problems. >> >> To me, I keep it all in perspective. There is an old expression about the >> grass seeming greener on the other side of the fence. Android is no picnic, >> and this goes well beyond general accessibility. There are far more >> problems and confusion in the Android world than iOS 6. At least, for the >> iOS user, upgrades are universal, users as far back as the 3GS can still use >> current software and you don't have to worry about malware and other >> security exploits, unless you go the JB route. >> >> In any event, as I said, opinion and generalizations on a public list >> always lead to topics becoming larger than life. For every person who makes >> the claim accessibility is decreasing in iOS, I can find 3 others who will >> counter that assertion. >> >> >> >> >> Take Care >> >> John D. Panarese >> Director >> Mac for the Blind >> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >> Email, j...@macfortheblind.com >> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >> >> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX LION >> >> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >> >> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >> >> >> >> On Feb 16, 2013, at 11:02 AM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I did say "not as easy to use at first", not "not as easy to use period". >>> The new layout is completely useable once you get used to it. No >>> accessibility should not play second fiddle to visual appeal, but, as I >>> said, if a visual change can still remain accessible, then Apple should >>> make that change if they feel they need to. Different is not inaccessible, >>> it is merely different and we must find a new best way of using it since >>> the old way no longer works. Sometimes, of course, there is no efficient >>> way, and that is when we need to flood Apple with emails about the problem >>> and, more helpfully, offer suggestions as to what can be done. I'll grant >>> that iBooks may now not be as accessible, but again I have never used that >>> program extensively so I could not say. Still, change is not always equal >>> to inaccessible. >>> On Feb 16, 2013, at 9:56 AM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Cheree Heppe here: >>>> This fascinates me. Whenever a change in accessibility is made that >>>> impairs us, somebody always apologizes for us by saying that we have to >>>> make allowances for the visuals among us. Does that strike anyone as >>>> backward thinking? >>>> >>>> Hanging accessibility on the visual appeal perceptions of a blind observer >>>> implies that we as blind people have no idea of what is easy to use or >>>> what is useful. Universal design does not mean me firster design, unless >>>> I'm seriously misunderstanding the intent of the English language. >>>> >>>> The previous iteration worked. This iteration is convoluted and >>>> restrictive. >>>> >>>> Earlier, Apple made the choice to ignor accessibility and ended up losing >>>> the contract for the State of New York's schools because their newest >>>> version of accessibility had narrowed the access so badly that those >>>> needing the access couldn't use it and the Windows camp took precedence. >>>> >>>> I would hate to think that sort of slippage is re-asserting itself. >>>> >>>> My srance: The current iteration of IOS it flawed and moving farther into >>>> that area. My thinking is that somebody in Apple is embarrassed to be >>>> compared to a charity group pandoring to the disabled and, why don't the >>>> Apple people realize that they have a normal public to satisfy, etc. >>>> >>>> Well, the fact remains that anyone has the potential to require disability >>>> features. An accident, a careless inattention by our fellow man and we >>>> have the accessibility paradigm staring us in the face. There are always >>>> those pesky wars, where whole people come back with less than they left >>>> with. >>>> >>>> Accessibility features aid everyone. There should not be a stigma in how >>>> accessibility is introduced into a product. If there is doubt, the >>>> accessibility tab in the IOS devices is way at the bottom of the list of >>>> other modalities,. Accessibility should be intuitive and simple, so that >>>> somebody newly faced with issues that already cloud their emothins and >>>> judgment can just reach out and keep going with a slightly new form. >>>> >>>> The App Store isn't easy and isn't accessible. The IBooks store is iffy >>>> and tedious to navigate as a blind user now and it didn't act that way >>>> before the new IOS iteration. >>>> >>>> So, do I just return to paying my $75 or $50 fee and reading second hand >>>> through BookShare? >>>> >>>> Anybody out there listening? I hope so, because Apple made a gigantic >>>> stride toward equalizing the paying field. It must have really bothered a >>>> few and maybe there are influences geared to making this new, shiny >>>> equality a bit tarnished to turn those ungrateful blind types back toward >>>> those who really know best how to care for and govern them. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Cheree Heppe >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my IPhone 4S >>>> >>>> On 16/02/2013, at 2:31, Donna Goodin <doniado...@me.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well said, Alex. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Donna >>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree. While I don't use the iBook Store much, I use the App Store all >>>>> the time. Once I got used to the new layout, I had no problems at all, >>>>> and still don't. Yes, I preferred the old layout, but one thing we have >>>>> to remember is that the iOS platform is geared toward being visually >>>>> pleasing and easy to use. Putting accessibility on that should not limit >>>>> Apple. That is, if it sells more devices and looks better to set things >>>>> up the way they have done in iOS6, and if that new interface can be made >>>>> totally accessible, then they have every right to make the change. Just >>>>> because it is different, or not as easy to use at first glance, does not >>>>> make it worse. For instance, one thing people forget to use in the new >>>>> App Store is heading navigation, which lets you flick between the app and >>>>> the selected information. You can also touch the left-most tab on the >>>>> bottom, flick left once, and there's your adjustable picker of search >>>>> results. Does Apple make mistakes? Yes, and plenty of them, but they sell >>>>> millions of units and are trying to please a huge range of users. Do they >>>>> make interfaces that are accessible but horrible to use? Yes (Garageband, >>>>> for instance - you can use it, but not efficiently). Overall, though, >>>>> they do their best, they have an amazing accessibility department, and, >>>>> remember, Voiceover is still younger than most of the screen readers out >>>>> there, yet it can easily compete with any of them. >>>>> On Feb 16, 2013, at 12:28 AM, Ricardo Walker <rwalker...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I must say, I'm at a total loss about iBooks and the app store. These >>>>>> seem to be working fine for me on all my IOS devices. I remember a few >>>>>> months back, when they first changed the app store there was accessible >>>>>> issues. I think they fixed that in a month or less. And I've never had >>>>>> any problems using the table index sliders. Just to be clear, I'm not >>>>>> saying that you are not indeed having these issues. I'm just wondering, >>>>>> could it be user error? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ricardo Walker >>>>>> rica...@appletothecore.info >>>>>> Twitter:@apple2thecore >>>>>> www.appletothecore.info >>>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 10:57 PM, Cheree Heppe <che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheree Heppe here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No need to make excuses for Apple. The IBooks store and the App Store >>>>>>> have become significantly less accessible with the changing IOS >>>>>>> versions. This doesn't have to happen and is a bad sign. In IBooks, >>>>>>> there are horizontal rows of titles and at either end of those rows >>>>>>> oone encounters a slider or something that when barely touched will >>>>>>> shift the titles listings so that a blind user has a hell of a time >>>>>>> determining what the list actually contains. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The same slider in the contacts list on the IPhone works well because >>>>>>> it somehow paces itself with the user's scrolling finger and is very >>>>>>> usable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The App Store has these screen shots and a tiny place to flick up or >>>>>>> whatever that in using the I-devices since 2010, I have not been able >>>>>>> to master. The earlier iteration of the app store's accessibility >>>>>>> worked so well that it was easy to read about the apps, move through a >>>>>>> list and so on. I have barely used either the app store or IBooks >>>>>>> store since these limitations became part of the IOS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These changes make it nearly impossible for a new blind user to get a >>>>>>> confident sense of the potential for independent access that we got >>>>>>> only a few IOS upgrades ago. This would be very off putting to me if I >>>>>>> had acquired my I-device recently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Apple does not have to model its screen reader and access after the >>>>>>> seriously broken JAWS example. I use JAWS at work and have never >>>>>>> experienced a computer program so poorly equipped to do a job. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Cheree Heppe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my IPhone 4S >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 15/02/2013, at 15:50, "Blake Sinnett" <frequency...@hotmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would have to agree. Apple has lost some of their magic ever since >>>>>>> the middle of last year. Things just seem to be breaking a little too >>>>>>> often. iCloud, bugs in iOS 6, the maps fiasco... Who knows what'll >>>>>>> happen next. Of course Tim's just taken over, so maybe after a while >>>>>>> things'll smooth out. The only thing we can do is wait and see what >>>>>>> happens. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blake >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> From: <jshandr...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 11:42 AM >>>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>> Subject: OT: iOS 6 Disappointment! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OT: iOS 6 disappointment! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is anyone else feeling a little sad about the iOS eco-system since >>>>>>>> release in October. Don't get me wrong, there will always be issues. >>>>>>>> However Apple has had so many issues. >>>>>>>> First, you had the complete redesign of iBooks, App, iTunes store. In >>>>>>>> the first release the blind community lost a lot of access, because we >>>>>>>> didn't even have the ability to see ratings with the new software. >>>>>>>> Second, you had the App store crashing when you would go into the >>>>>>>> search area. This happened to everyone, not just our community. >>>>>>>> thirdly, who can forget the map debacle. >>>>>>>> You have devices going into recovery mode when you do a reset. >>>>>>>> The 6. 1 update you now have exchange issue. The extreme 4s battery >>>>>>>> issue, and now this morning people who use institutional accounts like >>>>>>>> at schools. Individuals can bypass the no downloading option. >>>>>>>> I just find this so sad. apple used to pay such close attention to >>>>>>>> stability, clean UI, and of course accessibility. I still love my >>>>>>>> Apple products, and hope things change under Jony Ive. Is anyone else >>>>>>>> feeling slightly let down? This is just a short list, I know you could >>>>>>>> point out more. I just pointed out a few which never should have >>>>>>>> happened! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> J.P. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Have a great day, >>>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) >>>>> mehg...@gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Have a great day, >>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) >>> mehg...@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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