On Tue, 5 Dec 2000, Perrin Harkins wrote:
> Brian, you've been taking a beating on this thread. I don't want to add
> to it, but you did raise a couple of interesting questions in this post.
>
> > the availability of application server products in the java world is
> > another example. go look at enhydra enterprise
> > (http://www.enhydra.org/software/enhydraEnterprise/) and tell me that
> > something like that exists in the perl world.
>
> Personally, I'm kind of pleased that nothing like that exists in the perl
> world. It looks like a recipe for a slow site to me - complexity for the
> sake of complexity. But I've been burned by Java "application servers"
> before so I may be a bit prejudiced against Enhydra. I think the part of
> server-side Java that has the most value is the basic servlet API.
> Personally, I find it pretty easy to replicate those services in mod_perl
> without doing any additional coding, but I know you believe it's still too
> difficult for newbies, and you may be right.
The Big Thing for a serious project is providing a lot of services. If
you look at Weblogic server, you get all database, sessions, message
queuing, directory access, blah blah blah for free. Basically, the
programmer lives in a little cocoon where a truckload of services are
available and he only has to worry about his code.
Contrast that with a mod_perl server. Out of the box, the only thing you
get is a request object. I love that, and that's why if I want to add a
little widget to my intranet, of course I do it in mod_perl and it takes
me 15 minutes. But growing is nearly impossible. Adding data access,
session management, and the like require work on the part of the
programmer, and I think this list can testify that a lot of people don't
do it properly.
I haven't looked at AO or AxKit, but if I can untar either one of them and
just get to work, that will rule. (An aside: you can literally just unzip
weblogic.zip and start it. It is extremely simple, and it hasn't been
"slow" in years.)
> Part of the problem then is that perl is all things to all people. This
> thread has already covered both the "it's harder than PHP", which is true,
> and the "it's not as polished as Java", wich is also true. Some projects,
> like Embperl and Apache::ASP, have gone a long way to make the barriers to
> entry lower for the PHP types. There has also been a lot of effort to
> make more polished web pages and documentation for some mod_perl projects
> lately, Mason and AxKit being cases in point. I doubt it will ever
> compete with Java in this regard though, since no single mod_perl project
> is likely to get the same level of promotion that a WebLogic can muster.
> The mod_perl message will probably always be about choice, flexibility,
> and source code.
>
> > you don't have to spend time re-integrating Apache::Session and
> > Apache::DBI and Apache::WipeMyAss with each new project.
>
> I think Apache::WipeMyAss auto-configures as of 0.3. But seriously, do
> people have that much trouble using these defacto standard modules?
> Maybe they need some more work in certain areas if they don't function
> correctly "out of the box" for most people.
There are a whole lot of people who just can't understand how to install
Apache::Session. They shouldn't need to.
-jwb
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