Hi Gav
I suspect you're right, it can't. Perhaps we need to get away from using
greed and competition as motivating foces if we want to improve
our societies. Is there an alternative? Can we work for better reasons
of responsibility and cooperation for what we agree is worth doing
(quality).
I mean a lot of volunteers and mothers/parents and wives and carers already
work
for little or nothing. Do we need to grow up and start working for what we
want
and know we need rather than for selfish advantage?
David M
okay someone please explain to me how a profit-based economic system (ie
capitalism) can be sustainable. ie how can we avoid the boom - bust - war
cycle that has characterised capitalism in practice for the past century
or so.
of course i am presuming that we all consider depression and war things to
be avoided. (general assent here?)
--- On Thu, 16/10/08, Ian Glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Ian Glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [MD] growth and sustainability
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Received: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 7:23 PM
Ah yes Schumpeter, Kondratiev waves of cultural evolution in
economic
cycles .... in my Master's thesis almost 20 years ago.
A big fan.
Profit is good ... it's just that a free (like totally
free, man)
market may be the best way to make profits, but it's
not the best way
to decide how they're used .... some public
accountability /
regulation / insurance for lean times is needed there.
Ian
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 1:12 PM, ml
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't know if anyone has pointed out that
> the nineyeenth century view of capitalism
> ostensibly espoused here by many of the anti-
> freemarket crowd ourght be replaced with a
> better model as per Schumpater. ( So, read
> Schumpater. all who have an SQ view of the
> free market system, or you are on the wrong
> page, pointing at a rock and calling it a bird.)
>
> Profit, rather than being theft from the workers of
> their blood, sweat and tears, has more correctly
> been pointed out to be, for a company, more like
> the fall feeding of a bear--the necessary cushion
> through lean times for survival of the enterprise.
> (This is not todrny that there are some humans
> who act like thieves and steal from the enterprize
> and their fellow workers. That is a different
problem
> similar to the 'more equal' problem in other
systems.)
>
> Profit also pays for the growth of the enterprise and
> EVERY company I've worked for or owned paid a
> bonus to employees that spread the profit to them.
>
> Not for profit operations often operate less
efficiently
> and squander any chance of surplus and returns less
> if anything to community.
>
> thanks--mel
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <moq_discuss@lists.moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] growth and sustainability
>
>
>> [gav]
>> is profit inherently unsustainable? or is
>> there room for profit in a sustainable economy?
>
> Gav,You're comparing two different things: the
structure of the
> workplacevs. its profit status. The structure of the
workplace can be
> egalitarian(everyone has an equal voice) or it can be
hierarchial (either
> top-down orbottom-up).A company can be for-profit or
non-profit. All
> combinations are possible.For instance, a for-profit
company can have an
> egalitarian structure.If investors find this structure
more efficient (=
> more profitable)they will prefer it. On the other
hand, a non-profit
> hospital will generallyhave a chief administrator
(with an advanced degree
> in hospitalmanagement) & won't consult the
janitorial staff on new
> medicalequipment purchases.What happens when an
employee controlled,
> non-profit companycompetes against a for-profit one?
Assume they are
> bothmanufacturing companies, competing in the same
market,selling the same
> product for the same price.
>
> The price gets allocatedinto 4 categories:
> I) variable costs (utilities, raw
materials)
> II) capital costs (land, building,
machines)
> III) wage
> IV) "P-factor" (to be explained).
> To simply: Assume the rates for I) & II) are the
same.In the for-profit
> company, investors provide the capital.In the
non-profit company, the money
> for the capital is borrowed.The amount allocated to
III) & IV) vary
> inversely.In the for-profit company, the lower III)
wages get,the higher IV)
> the "P-factor" (= profit) is.In the
non-profit company, the money for
> capital costs (+ interest)is repaid from IV) the
"P-factor", the rest goes
> to III) wages.The capitalist puts downward pressure on
wages,while the
> employee controlled company puts upward pressureon
them. Craig
>
>
>
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