----- Original Message ----- From: "gav" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [MD] growth and sustainability
> good morning, > > > > > > > > gav <snip> > > i thought economic systems operated within human wrought parameters? unlike the weather. m (Read Bionomics to do a better job of this than I can, but) Economy is emergent behavior of non-finite complexity. As it unfolds it is far beyond designed parametrics in capability and capacity, so it really is more like weather. g > so economics is not about stimulating, protecting, or resuscitating an economy? ie it has no practical point at all? m If human history teaches nothing else, it shows that we never lack for hubris. We assume that if we have the opinion that something ought to be so, then reality will reflect our imperative. That said. We rarely spend the time to try to understand something without the obvious practical step of 'doing something about it.' ( I did mention the depression effect, so recognize that our effect may not be as fine tuned as we hope.) g > yes. i think that this is well-known. the romans conquered england; cortez south america; england decimated the aboriginals; the US decimated the indians, mexicans, vietnamese, iraqis etc. i find this stuff morally repugnant. call me squeamish i suppose. m all interesting examples of cultural clash, but largely miss the point. The pre-columbian rhythm of Central American civilisations esp Maya show economic/resource crashes. As I understand it some Asian steppe societies had similar crashes. The Iroquois predation, destruction, and diaspora of Wyandot (Huron) society had, as I understand it, the crash of traditional crafts that were replaced with tradegoods and the Iroquois desired to deal with the French traders directly fearing for their survival as they'd abandoned those crafts. Iriqouis survived and Wyandot wandered for two humdred years. > g > so can we avoid such damaging rollercoaster rides? or am i sensing you think these rides, war and depression included, are good and necessary? > > i would like us to evolve past war, greed, depression, the rape of the natural world. > > evolution......what do you think about evolution mel? m The roller coaster rides are symptoms of the way SQ is 'broken' by DQ. DQ builds a solid foundation on imaginary ground and SQ quakes the 'real' gound and bursts the incorrectly conceived foundation. It is not that cycles are 'good' or 'necessary' they are unavoidable. To dream of a state with all wave tops and no wave troughs, all high points and no low is a beautiful dream. But in their effects, the acts of war, greed, depression, rape, as ugly as they may be just are a part of the 'forces of evolution.' Evolution? I think it clear that cycles and variation, unexpected and impossible to conceive, are hall marks of the very forces that cause change and response that we include under the ever unfolding model we have of evolution. Evolution, like Gravity, is only a theory that we use to explain the behaviors we see in the universe, but I can conceive no other theories that have added so much to human understanding. Neither theory is sufficient and no doubt our grandchildren many greats removed will notice how much superstition we wove into our science without even noticing. Like we read of Greeks who made fine elegant proofs and then went out their front door and paid someone to read goat entrails. d'oh Theories will always stand as less than the actual, much as first order infinities (of integers) are exceeded by second order infinities. (of real numbers) as Turing showed the inherent limit of modeling in algorythms. Our theory of Evo is right, that is it vectors in the proper direction, but it will always be short of fact. Our theory of evolution is an accreting ever more static quality attempt to capture an understanding of an ever Dynamic Quality system. But at some point in an asymtotic approach we will get 'close enough' to consider it a 'rule-of-thumb-fact.' thanks--mel Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
