Excellent post, Neil! I'm with you! (Sorry to be using up the bandwidth with this "me too" stuff, but couldn't help it :)) Cheers, Vadim Neil Davis wrote: > > Guys, > > Amen. When I was 13 and got my first commodore 64, I decided to teach myself > BASIC. All I had was the manual. (the MySQL manual is the library of > congress compared to this manual!) There simply were no other resources for > me since I couldn't afford a modem until 2 years later, when I got a 300 > baud modem, and had no idea of where to find a book about Commodore BASIC, > so I used the Commodore manual and the books at the library to interpolate > answers. > > Then, it was a matter of first, finding a BBS, then finding at least one > other BBS that might have a list, until I found one that had a large list of > other BBS's. On some of these were lists and forums much like this one. When > I got an answer for where I might find a resource about my programming > problem, I went to the library and checked out the book, or begged my mom > for the 20 bucks to buy the book if it was not available at the library. No > one ever gave me the answers. I figured that this was the way it was, so > went with the flow... and wrote my programs. > > The amount of information available now, is simply astounding. Not only > that, if people would bother to learn to use a search engine first, they > would have no problems finding the answers. Nothing can compare to the > specific results found by a correctly executed search on a clean index such > as Altavista. I only post a question to a list when all other resources have > been exhausted and my frustration with trying to hack the answer is > overwhelming. > > I still have a great deal to learn, always will, but am learning at a very > rapid pace, rarely needing the response of others, even with a new > programming language, thanks to this resource that we call the world wide > web. Some, not all, young programmers/db people today have no idea how cushy > they have it. Some dive right into the internet or get a book and find the > answer, others want it handed to them. The former will feel a sense of > empowerment (that is justified), the latter will have never-ending > frustration. > > Where I try to be compassionate, is undocumented or buggy stuff. I am more > than willing to share. That is when experience should be called on. People > need to realize that most of us are grappling with our own problems and > can't re-document the wheel every time you are in a hurry and don't feel > like finding it or looking it up. > > If it is documented somewhere, and can be produced by searching, there is > not an excuse for not using that readily available knowledge. If that sounds > elitist, or sounds unreasonable, I am sorry. I was shaped by my environment. > I admin that sometimes I transgress out of panic and usually quickly get > corrected, but I don't cry about it; I remember where I am, why I am here, > and solve the problem with the available information. I still haven't been > beat by a problem. > > L8, > Neil > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rolf Hopkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 11:17 AM > Subject: Re: Lazy > > > Interesting. My guess is that you must be in your early 20s. When I was > at > > high school (& even uni), apart from normal lessons, researching for > > assignments, etc, meant going to the library, not downloading the answer > > from the internet. Internet didn't exists in those days. Maybe in the > > States it did but not where I was. Teachers would only be there as a > guide > > but would never give us the answer. I guess the quality of teaching and > > graduates have dropped greatly since I left high school. > > > > Cheers > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Cichy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 0:47 > > Subject: Re: Lazy > > > > > > > Human nature and education... > > > > > > In most cases as youngsters we are 'given' the answers and the methods > for > > > solving our problems. As we get older we continue to expect this and > > un-able > > > to function when told to figure something out. > > > > > > My first computer class in High school (NCR Mainframe/BASIC), I had a > > teacher > > > who at the time I thought was a pain in the @$$, but in looking back, I > > think > > > I owe my career to him. Someone would ask a question, 'Can I do ... with > > > BASIC?', he would barely look up from what he was doing and say 'Yes', > and > > > continue reading or what ever. Students, I included, would stand at his > > desk > > > waiting for an explanation, a couple seconds later, he would look up, > > point > > > to bookshelves in the corner of the room and say 'Read the books, > they'll > > > tell you how' (translation from High School correct phrase, 'RTFM'). We > > all > > > learned a lot that year! > > > > > > The following year, we had another teacher, who seemed to feel she was > > > 'stuck' with teaching this class. In contrast to our previous > instructor, > > a > > > new student would ask her if you could do ... with BASIC, she would > > quickly > > > say 'No'. Armed with our knowledge of manual reading, the second year > > > students would set out to prove her wrong, and in most cases we did! > > > > > > The result of these two years of computer science, Publishers have me on > > the > > > Christmas card list ;-) and many of my friends and associates get a real > > > kick out of telling me something can't be done!! > > > > > > I think the big problem most newbies have with RTFM is knowing the > > > terminology to look for, i.e. 'I want to add a new user', can be > difficult > > to > > > translate into GRANT and privileges for a new user. > > > > > > Have a great day... > > > John > > > > > > On Thursday 11 January 2001 09:12, Don wrote: > > > > > Carlos Corzo wrote: > > > > > > Some people have tried the manuals verbatim but are really > confused > > > > > > because they are not at your intellectual level. If this list is > > for > > > > > > the "intelligent only", change the title please. Not everyone can > > > > > > decipher a manual. I may post questions but there are reasons for > > > > > > them. My time is just as valuable as yours. > > > > > > > > It's human nature, > > > > > > > > When a novice user is confronted with a new challenge and a manual, > two > > > > things may occur. If the Sysadmin (support staff, lead, etc...) is in > > line > > > > of site or known to be in the office/building, the user will give the > > > > manual a cursory glance and at the first sign of trouble, yell for the > > > > Sysadmin or pick up the phone and call him/her for assistance. In > this > > > > case, THE LIST takes the place of the sysadmin. It's the old proverb: > > > > > > > > "When all else fails, read the manual" > > > > > > > > However, if the user is in isolation , the user will be more apt to > read > > > > the manual more carefully as they are not guaranteed of getting > > voice/List > > > > support. > > > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Before posting, please check: > > > > http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) > > > > http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) > > > > > > > > To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Trouble > > > > unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Before posting, please check: > > > http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) > > > http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) > > > > > > To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Before posting, please check: > > http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) > > http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) > > > > To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Before posting, please check: > http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) > http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) > > To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To unsubscribe, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php --------------------------------------------------------------------- Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To unsubscribe, e-mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
