On Wednesday 29 October 2003 12:53 pm, robin wrote:[snip]
I already mentioned that LG are culpable. As for the responsibility of the user, it is not fair to the user to expect him or her to retest hardware that has worked successfully with previous versions of Linux.
????? Each time new software comes out, there are possibilities of incompatibilities with legacy applications as well as legacy hardware. Granted, expecting users to follow changelogs and make informed decisions about risk mitigation in deciding what to test is probably asking quite a bit. However, that is why people who are not prepared to do these things should be smart enough to not be FIRST ADOPTERS and rush out to load the newest version of Linux before it has been properly vetted by those who are prepared to do so. If the user is not prepared to accept the responsibility, they should wait for those who are. Trying to stay on the bleeding edge and expecting no problems is simply asinine and stupid and there is no one capable of protecting someone from their own stupidity. Case in point, LG.
Since when is a stable release "bleeding edge"? Bleeding edge is Cooker. Bleeding edge is running alpha apps. Bleeding edge is using a development kernel.
We expect that hardware my not work under a new version (for a while I had to keep an old kernel on my system for this very reason) but we do not expect the hardware to be damaged (well, not since the days when X could blow up your monitor!).
No one expects this, least of all probably those who coded the new versions of the Linux Kernel. In fact, it should be practically impossible for software to damage hardware in this fashion, however the fact that it can do so is yet another item to bring up with LG, not the kernel coders. Someone else has already pointed out that we can probably expect another MS virus to propagate soon, this one destroying CD-ROMS. I expect that LG is going to wish that they had followed proper standards before too long.
Fair point.
Buyer beware is a VERY small price to pay for what we have been given with Linux. This endless bitching about someone else not assuming all responsibility for what each of us do ourselves is really starting to wear thin on me.
The outraged reactions to anyone criticising Linux are starting to wear thin on me.
It is not outrage, it is simply annoyance that there are so many more people prepared to bitch and look a gift horse in the mouth than there are people prepared to contribute and offer support, or accept personal responsibility for knowing about their own computer equipment. Criticism of something that should not have been done is one thing, blaming a linux developer because he wasn't smart enough to protect an idiot designer at LG from his own stupidity is something else entirely.
You are making an assumption that the people who complain (or "bitch", as you so charitably put it) are a separate group from the people who contribute and offer support, or for that matter pay for their software.
At the point that MS starts to deploy closed box console computers to the general public, I am sure that they are going to point to this particular incident to explain why it is preferable for people to not install their own OS or software, and not to buy separate computer components.
That was exactly my point.
For anyone that doesn't want to take responsibility for learning, knowing and understanding their own hardware and software, there is an alternative. It is called Windows.
Sure, keep on with this attitude and help ensure the safety of the MS monopoly. In any case, we all know that if you don't want to have to learn about your hardware and software, the alternative is a Macintosh ;-)
Unlike some others in the community, I am not at war with MS, I do not seek the destruction of MS, I am not on a holy crusade, nor am I an evangelical pushing a philosophy. I am simply someone who enjoys the fruits of labor that have been given to me and tries to contribute back when I am able to do so.
With the implication that those who criticise don't do this, perhaps.
If the price of getting someone to use Linux is that I have to dummy it down to the point where I replicate the same mistakes, bad design and idiotic marketing bullshit that MS has propagated, then I say that price is too high.
I don't see what any of this has to do with dummying down Linux. Besides, would you rather go back to the days when installing Linux meant editing configuration files in emacs?
I wouldn't consider trying to perform electrical design in my home or car because I am not qualified to do so. Buying a particular OS does not make someone qualified to configure or maintain a computer. If someone wants something that is just like Windows, I say, let them use Windows.
And if someone doesn't want a user-friendly Linux, I say, let them use Debian. But as I said, this isn't the issue here.
[snip]
Pointing out problems is a valuable form of support, or would be if people weren't so defensive. When I file a report in bugzilla, I don't expect someone to mail me back and say, "OK, smartypants, where's the patch then?"
No, but asking developers to keep fully stocked hardware labs for testing purposes is hardly a simple criticism. You do not provide any mechanism for them to easily implement your suggestion and leave the onus of doing so entirely on them. Not to mention the extra time and resources required to conduct such testing. I do have some knowledge of what is involved and it is NOT trivial.
If LG were some really obscure hardware manufacuter, I would agree. The fact is that these are some of the most common CDROMs on the market. And as someone pointed out, they cost around $12.
For those that wanted to gain the benefits, the only thing that they needed to do was actually WAIT before installing until others had had a chance to do the same type of testing that you propose.
As I said, it was a stable release. That should mean testing was complete. Not testing on every obscure bit of hardware on the planet, just the most common stuff.
Sir Robin
-- "I declare this sentence a performative!"
Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey
www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin
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