J,
It's cool that we have a free an open exchange on the email list. I don't
think there is any "gag". It would be a complete waste of time for Ironflare
to censor the list, because so many on the list also use alternative
channels for communication (direct emails, IRC, the several java usenets).
For those of you reading this thread, please understand that you can still
post your questions here, and they will be answered sooner or later. We do
have spirited discussions (the frequency is about every month...I wonder if
there some lunar influence on that ;) ... ) .
Now for something useful... Here is the link to the big O's documentation
for orion:
http://technet.oracle.com/docs/tech/java/oc4j/htdocs/getstart.htm#1016486
You will have to create an account with otn, but that's pretty easy to do by
going to :
http://technet.oracle.com/index.html, and clicking the membership link. Its
free.
Regards,
the elephantwalker
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jay Armstrong
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:30 AM
To: Orion-Interest
Subject: Re: Oracle deal gag
At 12:54 PM 6/10/01 +0200, you wrote:
>From: "Jay Armstrong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> EW,
>[snip]
>> After my criticism, subsequent messages from others on the original
thread
>> ("RE: Oracle deal") also went through fine, but none of them were
critical
>> of Ironflare. In fact, all of them either told me to shut up (Greg
>> Stickley and Hani Suleiman, who described the problem as a "pebble"),
were
>> complimentary of the deal, and/or tried to change the subject. Seems odd
>> to me that not one, single critical comment about the most important
>> business deal in Orion Server's history came after mine, unless the
thread
>> was being censored.
>
>Have you considered the remote possibility that everybody else frequenting
>this forum might just happen to not share your opinion regarding the deal?
Yes, I considered that. I don't know how many belong to or frequent the
group, but I know that there have been well over 1,000 orion-interest
participants in the past. You're saying that I'm the only one. If you say
so.
Some questions: Why did Karl respond so quickly and directly to my original
email (unless it was being watched or someone told him, and hit a sore
spot)? Why didn't my reply to him (really to orion-interest) go through?
Why didn't my resend go through, but the subsequent ones with a different
subject did go through? Why did others' subsequent replies to the same
thread go through?
No one has seen my response to Karl, so how do you know what's in it? How
do you know whether or not it was blocked?
Even if the mail server isn't working right, you can review the threads on
the orionserver.com site. Neither of my attempts show up.
I will try again.
>> I would point out one of Karl's statements in his reply to me: "The
>purpose
>> of the orion-interest has always been to promote the exchange of
>> experiences and knowledge between our users, not as a channel to
>> communicate with us."
>
>Sounds fair enough. Paying licensees enjoy the benefits of having a
>support channel directly to Ironflare. Non-paying users enjoy the
>benefits of having a public forum in which to discuss issues regarding
>the Orion product. The state being as it is, at Ironflare, with very few
>employees so far, and the focus being on development, I would find
>it surprising to see either Karl or Magnus spending lots of time in this
>forum. Should a significant portion of the users of this forum come to
>the conclusion that this forum is unfit for its intended purpose, there is
>a very simple solution: Start another one, e.g an egroup.
I agree, it's their site. They can do with it as they will. But it may be
a sheep in wolves clothing. If it's not for "open" discussion, then they
should say so.
Let me comment on the "few employees". On Dec 7, 2000, Karl finally
responded to the "Re: Anyone heard from evermind?" thread, saying that the
new company, Ironflare, was forming and "The expansion is just starting and
as it goes on, resources will initially be spent more on building the
organization and hiring the right people." Okay, that was over six months
ago. I'm sure there are enough of the "right people" available in Sweden
and among the international pool of talent that has done the free
testing/bug identification. So, why is it taking so long?
One possible answer is that they don't really want to hire anyone, even for
writing decent documentation, staffing a help desk, etc. Reason? Because
that may come from partners like Oracle.
Also, since their testing is done for free, they certainly don't need to
hire anyone for that. Are you disagreeing with this, my original point?
I am in the process of starting another interest group. I hope to announce
that in a few of weeks, as soon as I complete the initial mailing list,
clearly define the purpose (it will probably involve PAID work), and get a
news group product ready.
>> I interpret the statement above to be a veiled warning that "big brother
>is
>> watching" and not to criticize Ironflare via orion-interest.
>
>Oh dear. Let's see if this one comes through, to test the theory.
>
>Ironflare:
>
>- When it comes to announcing major changes and/or updates in the
>Orion product and/or the Ironflare company, you, at this time, suck!
>
>- Your official website is among the most static ones I have ever seen.
>You should put more effort in publishing current information regarding
>the product and the company on a regular basis, as in daily or at least
>weekly, on the website.
>
>If the irony wasn't obvious; I, for one, find the very idea that Ironflare
>would try to censor this forum ludicrous. I would be _extremely_
>surprised to find my criticism above being removed for any reason.
The irony is obvious -- it's not a serious criticism regarding the original
thread. My original points were:
Ironflare/Evermind was getting free testing from the user community.
Ironflare is not just a couple of guys in geek heaven -- they have a
financial interest as well.
>I would be happy to receive any feedback from Ironflare regarding
>it, though, but that seems unlikely at this time, this forum not being an
>official channel. I have found that an email directly to Ironflare tends
>to get more attention. I am not saying that I wouldn't like Ironflare
>to more actively participate in this forum. On the contrary, I think
>that would be great! But _not_ if it affects development and bug
>squashing adversely. _DO_, by all means, update the website more
>regularly, though!
>> Don't you also find it odd that Ironflare did not make this announcement?
>> Rather, it came from Bryan Young's discovery after trying oc4j. My guess
>> is that Ironflare, possibly under orders from Oracle, wanted to keep this
>> quiet and is now attempting damage control.
>
>Could you please elaborate on exactly how you came to that conclusion?
I said it was a guess, not a conclusion. The GUESS is based on this:
- Ironflare showed no interest in MySQL (see "A Swedish Idea" thread).
- Ironflare showed little or no interest in a licensing violation I
reported to them.
-Ironflare did not announce the deal with Oracle, rather it was first
reported to this group by a member, Bryan Young.
- Despite going to JavaOne, Karl responded immediately and directly to my
message on the "Oracle deal" thread.
- My two attempts to respond to Karl did not get published.
- The amount of money involved in the deal could be huge (maybe not
immediately, but through Ironflare's cut of oc4j sales).
>> If it's a list problem, okay, but how can we possibly know? Time will
>> tell, though it could also be that open discussions are not and have
never
>> been allowed in this "interest" group.
>
>Ridiculous. It might be that I am a Swede myself, but to me it just seems
>totally unlikely, from what I have heard and read about Karl & Magnus.
I know Swedes have a lot of pride (by the way, I'm from Colorado, which
just won the Stanley Cup in NHL hockey, so "thank you", Sweden, for Peter
Forsberg).
I'm not saying they're evil, but money talks. There's a small company
based in Stockholm called Ericsson that seems to make a pretty good profit
these days, so Swedes are not immune to capitalism.
>Let's hope I am not proven to be wrong. That would be a sad day indeed.
I'm not sure, but I suspect it's already happened. In spite of my blunt
comments, I sincerely hope to be proven wrong by the facts, and will
immediately ask forgiveness when so proven.
>Best regards,
>
>David
>
If this message makes it through, please let me make it clear that I have
often vehemently defended Orion on this site and elsewhere. I have also
fought for "free speech" on this site (i.e., the "A Swedish Idea" thread
where Randy Kemp was basically told to shut up). I have also clearly
stated my wish for Karl and Magnus to get rich.
I have intentionally used some blunt and harsh wording regarding the
subject of the Oracle deal. I believe that there is a misconception that
Ironflare and this "interest" group is "open", or that it is here solely
for the benefit of the members. Orion is an "in-between" product -- it's
"semi-open", but there is also a profit motive. The blunt wording is
intended to force the issue so that everyone knows what they're dealing
with. Either this is going to be a site where we can speak openly, or
everyone will know that it's not. At least we'll know.
Jay
