Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > I do find it odd that given the relative popularity of this thread and > the considerable number of knowledgeable people who post regularly on > this forum, that I am only being taken to task by two people since it is > suggested that I am talking out of my hat. > > Dave :) Hell no, we are all here and having a hellva a good time watching you go toe to toe with Arny. So far I'd say that you are doing an incredible job, particularly when it comes to keeping a calm and level head. Arny seems to get under people's skin rather quickly. I don't know if any double blind test, no matter how well set up and conducted, will make even the slightest difference since you are not just battling people's use of subjective testing but also the very livelihoods of many, many people. And once money is involved the truth, objectivity and rationality always just seem to disappear, kind of the way God responses to prayers. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > I hope that you appreciate that you are now arguing with yourself. Why > not listen to some music & chill out a bit? > Given the obvious fact that you are still responding to me with posts, it is quite clear that you are incapable of understanding your own actions. Let me kindly recommend that you quit posting to this thread while you are only this far behind. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
I do find it odd that given the relative popularity of this thread and the considerable number of knowledgeable people who post regularly on this forum, that I am only being taken to task by two people since it is suggested that I am talking out of my hat. Could this in fact be a case of psychological projection? Nobody has had anything interesting to say yet about the genuine issues I was attempting to raise, unless I am mistaken... As for the proposed rigorous double-blind test, I am currently researching the recommended way to conduct this, and propose to publish the precise methodology that I select on this forum *-before-* carrying out the procedure to give any doubting Thomas's a chance to stick their fingers in the holes ahead of time. Then it should be reasonable to proceed without the inevitable criticism after the event which would otherwise doubtless ensue. Constructive a priori criticism will obviously be welcome, I have no wish to waste other peoples' time. Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
StephenPG wrote: > I don't think 'atheist' means what you seem to think 'atheist' means. Hi Stephen! My OED defines atheism as the theory or belief that God does not exist: an atheist is a person who proposes such a theory or holds that belief. Since the matter cannot be proven by any rational means, I consider it to be as extreme a position as that of a person who asserts or believes that God does exist, which is equally unprovable rationally. With this apparently incorrect interpretation, I hold a genuine agnostic position that I do not know whether any kind of God or Creator of any kind exists, which falls between the two extremes although it doesn't really lead anywhere. Where is my factual error in this, I must have blinkers on tonight? Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Thank you Mr K. StephenPG's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=48249 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > Hi Stephen! > > Accepting that "alternative facts" appear to be much in vogue these > days, would you mind clarifying which particular facts I have cited you > believe to be incorrect? > > I'm happy to stand corrected if I have made an error. It is not my > intention to promulgate any kind of propaganda. > > Been there, done that and the public record of this forum shows that you replaced the hoped for polite, rational answers with personal attacks and obfuscation. Here they are again: False claim: > > As in many fields, once you manage to penetrate the bs, there is an > 80/20 rule at work which means that to achieve any meaningful/audible > improvement will require an ever-increasing level of design > sophistication & quality control effort in production meaning £££'s > being spent in accordance with the law of diminishing returns. > Description of error: There is a law of diminishing returns that is particularly applicable to audio, but it is far more harsh than 80/20. At this time other than loudspeakers and rooms no further meaningful improvements in audible performance are possible at all. One about a dollar or less is spent on most major audio component parts (ICs like op amp and digital converters), no further audible improvements can be obtained because the existing ones already cause no audible degradation of the signals they process. False claim: > > Having said all that, I wish my music system to operate in order to > suspend my disbelief that I am listening to sophisticated electronics > and fancy transducers when I want to think that I am listening to music. > Ultimately there must be a subjective element to this, and indeed a > personal one, depending upon which aspects of a real musical performance > one feels most important: enjoying music is after all an emotional > experience. > An interesting question that can be answered is how much satisfaction can be obtained when most forms of subjective gratification are held constant, such as in blind tests. Explained: Your apparent error is the claim that the only means for determining the value of an audio system are purely subjective. Accuracy is a widespread standard that is used for evaluating sound quality and is not subjective, it is an measurable property that can be ranked on an objective scale. You seem to have used the words "Blind test" as some sort of an incantation without really understanding what that involves. That I think you may have even admitted this. I see no evidence that you know what one involves or how to do one, or supervise others to them. Some alleged engineer that you found on the street is not a suitable authority, and there is no necessary connection between the ownership of technical gear and knowledge of how to properly use it. > > I myself consider that I'm getting close when a reproduction makes the > hairs on the back of my neck stand up - I most commonly get this > response listening to exceptional vocalists, although solo piano is a > good test of system too because 1. it's a difficult signal to reproduce > accurately because of the initial transients to each note, from the > variable hammer action of the internal mechanism of the instrument, and > 2. because most of us have a pretty good idea of what a real piano > played live sounds like. > I have witnessed and even been part of literally thousands of public musical performances, and rarely if ever do the hairs on any part of my body stand up. I know of no reliable connection between the condition of one's hair and sonic accuracy. While the above may be romantic, I don't think it has any kind of widely accepted meaning. Given how little live music is actually listened to and how much of that is actually an electronic fiction, I serious doubt the above statement. Furthermore, every live venue puts its own sonic imprint on the music listened to in it. This means that you may know what a flute sounds like played by a certain artist playing a certain work in a certain musical context in a certain room if you are sitting at a certain place in that room, but change any of those variables and you are only speculating. > > I usually buy components for my system second-hand whenever possible, or > look for ex-demo bargains when something I want cannot easily be > acquired s/h. A major reason for this is of course that I am a > skin-flint, but joking aside, until you hook a piece of kit up with your > other gear in your own listening room and then listen to the result > intensively for a couple of weeks at least, you will not know if it > improves your musical enjoyment. > While that is true to an extent, reality is that if I did a blind listening test in your room with your last 3 amplifiers, or DACs, or digital players, odds are extremely good that you would be reduced to random guessing. The strongest variable controlling the sound of your audio system is the room, and lots of changes usually happen
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
StephenPG wrote: > But you're not entitled to your own 'facts'. Hi Stephen! Accepting that "alternative facts" appear to be much in vogue these days, would you mind clarifying which particular facts I have cited you believe to be incorrect? I'm happy to stand corrected if I have made an error. It is not my intention to promulgate any kind of propaganda. Thanks, Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
> I'm as entitled to my world view and opinions as you are to yours. But you're not entitled to your own 'facts'. StephenPG's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=48249 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
arnyk wrote: > Possible Translations: > > (1) I know I'm wrong but no way in #$!! I'm going to admit it in public > (2) Your answers were over my head > (3) No matter what you say, what evidence you provide, I know I'm right. > > > > If you have some actual response to what I said, where is it? It surely > isn't the following meandering collection of 25 cent words and name > dropping: > > > > > I never said why. So why bring it up? > > > > Why add irrelevant controversies like religion to the discussion, if not > for the purpose of obfuscation of befuddlement? > > > > Seems totally irrelevant to what used to be the fairly discussion at > hand - namely audio. > > > > > > Yeah, its not your fault. > > One can assist others in their understanding by being responsive, > relevant, and concise. Three strikes... I'm not the first person to find your approach confrontational. I just think we'll generate more heat than light if we carry on. I'm as entitled to my world view and opinions as you are to yours. I have already stated more than once that I'm not infallible - perhaps you might concede the same? Then we might be able to explore our different positions to see if either of us are suffering from what Eric Blair termed "double-think". It's the prevalent ability of human beings to subscribe to two conflicting points of view without noticing the contradiction. If we unable to agree to explore this very real possibility (for both of us), then we're not engaging in an informed debate. I'm not interested in having an argument: I don't know you well enough to be remotely motivated... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
> I am not an atheist (which is a logically indefensible position, since > you can't know that a God of some kind or another does not exist), but I > am strongly agnostic so have long ago stopped bothering with why things > are the way they are. I don't think 'atheist' means what you seen to think 'atheist' means. StephenPG's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=48249 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > I don't think there's any point in working through all the points you > raise. > Possible Translations: (1) I know I'm wrong but no way in #$!! I'm going to admit it in public (2) Your answers were over my head (3) No matter what you say, what evidence you provide, I know I'm right. > > I did (a long time ago) get awarded an Open Exhibition to read Physics > at Oxford University, so I think I do have a basis to comment on what > science is and what it isn't. > If you have some actual response to what I said, where is it? It surely isn't the following meandering collection of 25 cent words and name dropping: > > As Wittgenstein pointed out in the 1920's, any question beginning with > the word "why" is meaningless from the standpoint of Logical Philosophy, > which now leaves that area of conjecture to those of a religious > persuasion. > I never said why. So why bring it up? > > I am not an atheist (which is a logically indefensible position, since > you can't know that a God of some kind or another does not exist), but I > am strongly agnostic so have long ago stopped bothering with why things > are the way they are. > Why add irrelevant controversies like religion to the discussion, if not for the purpose of obfuscation of befuddlement? > > Physics has always been an investigation into "how" the universe > functions. I suspect that Sir Arthur Eddington was close to the mark in > the 1930's when he said, "The universe may not only be stranger than we > imagine, it may well be stranger than we can imagine". There will always > be new things to find out. IMO, Stephen Hawking's stated objective of > "knowing the mind of God" is flogging a dead horse, no matter how > brilliant a scientist he is (or was when he did his best work). > Seems totally irrelevant to what used to be the fairly discussion at hand - namely audio. My vote for physicist of the 20th century goes to neither Einstein nor Hawking, but to Paul Dirac who did some astounding work on quantum mechanics (which underpins all electronics) and despite being little-known got himself buried in Westminster Abbey which is a signal honour. All that I am trying to point out is that our appreciation of music is itself subjective - otherwise we would all like (& dislike) the same things. This is a good thing, I'm all for human diversity it's got us a long way in a very short time from an evolutionary standpoint. Sorry to be so misunderstood. Yeah, its not your fault. One can assist others in their understanding by being responsive, relevant, and concise. Three strikes... arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
I recently had the pleasure of meeting a fellow forum member who expressed an interest in taking part in my test & assisting with the technical aspects. He proved to be rather well qualified for this as he is an electrical engineer with a particular interest in acoustic engineering & an array of very handy equipment to assist in the precise level matching that will be necessary to preclude the subjective bias that almost everyone experiences in preferring the louder signal. Indeed he suggested that we should aim for 0.1dB matching if practicable since there is some evidence that even differences in level below the 0.5 - 1dB change that represents the effective limit of our conscious perception can be sensed subconsciously and therefore invalidate a serious test. I'm happy to bow to his superior experience in this respect although it will take us some further trial & error at a subsequent session to find the best volume settings on my Transporter & DAC adjusted in tandem to achieve this. No problem. He then came up with the startling (to me at least) assertion that after 30 minutes or so of acclimatisation our brains have the capability of ignoring static reflections in a listening room, together with some very plausible conjectures as to why this should be the case. I'll let him share these with you himself on the forum if he chooses, because he'll make a better job of explaining it than I would. Well, I'm always up for new ideas, so (with some difficulty!) I shut up for half an hour while he selected a wide range of recordings from my collection with which he was familiar and "dialled himself in". When he had finished, he kindly said that he found my system very musical, regardless of genre. This (apart from flattering me) suggested that I do at least have a system of sufficient resolution that differences might be discerned in the proposed double-blind test *-if-* they really exist. One of the things that we subsequently did was to load up a test disc containing a variety of system checks, one of which was a sweep tone test consisting of a series of constant amplitude tones each itself at a fixed pitch for about 10 seconds, but then followed by a subsequent tone at a lower frequency. The first thing that surprised me was that I heard the highest tone with 62 year old ears (it came immediately after a spoken introduction explaining the purpose of the test). The next thing that surprised me was that I heard each successive tone at the same subjective volume, except for the very last and lowest which was twice as loud, clearly hitting a major modal frequency (presumably concrete floor to beam & concrete ceiling, which is the shortest dimension as you would expect) in my room which is essentially a concrete box *-and which must therefore be full of reflected sounds which you would expect to affect some frequencies more than others, -*simply because of the room dimensions: it's almost square, just to make matters worse. I had been intending to invest in some acoustic panels on the assumption that my room must be too bright as is. But that (after a lot of listening over the years from my favoured position) is not what I actually heard, and it certainly made me at least take the proposition of echo suppression in our hearing sense rather seriously. Of course I could be deluded about this too, although it was absolutely not the result I expected so it could hardly be a simple case of "hearing what you want to hear". What I actually wanted was to get a sense of how much acoustic treatment my wrong shaped & constructed room really needed. It will be interesting to see if other test participants (after a suitable musical interlude) have the same auditory experience with the sweep test. One thing is for sure - my floor, walls & ceiling don't move (except for the extreme bass resonating with the ceiling which I'll have to try & fix before one of my neighbours murders me), so all the reflections would be of the static kind that it had just been proposed to me would be eliminated by my brain while listening to the direct sound from my speakers which of course reaches my ears slightly earlier than any reflections. I'm going to hold off plastering my walls with acoustic panels, although I'll probably need some on the ceiling to help absorb the resonant low bass frequency, and probably a bass trap to finish the job. The fact that I wasn't expecting the phenomenon just described at all made it more remarkable. But that's experimentation for you - sometimes you *-don't-* get what you expect. Further investigation warranted on this, I think... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Just to clarify, I am not in the habit of constantly changing my music system. The Mytek DAC & Sennheiser HD800S headphones which I recently acquired are the first change I've made for 8 years. If I am guilty of self-delusion in believing that the DAC makes my system sound better (& that the Sennheisers sound better than my loudspeakers, accepting that they prevent the sound from the opposite channel hit my ear, and therefore do not portray the stereo image as the recording engineer intended), then I can accept that. I'm fallible the same as anyone else - at least I've had the benefit of some retail therapy! This is why I have proposed a rigorous double-blind test to establish beyond statistical doubt whether I & any other forum member who would care to participate (the more the merrier) can really detect the difference in sound. I only learn something when I make mistakes, after all... Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Julf wrote: > Except for those of us who play electric/electronic instruments (where > the equipment is responsible for the sound to a high degree). > Yes, but creating music and playing back music in order to listen to are not only two different planets, but two different universes. Imho. ;) Gesendet von meinem Nexus 6 mit Tapatalk Current setup: - EEEBox, Xubuntu 14.04, LMS 7.9, FLAC - *Duet* > Pro-Ject DAC Box E > AKG Hearo 888 Titan (home office), *Boom + Canton ASF 75 SC* (master bedroom), *Boom* (master bathroom), 2 *Radios* (guest bathroom and garden deck), *RPi3 + LibreELEC + XSqueeze* > Samsung TV > NAD L53 > Mission 2.1 speakers (living room) - *Transporter* > vintage Wega Modul 42V amp (42E equalizer, 42T tape deck + Thorens TD 160 Mk II turntable) > Quadral Vulkan Mk II (music room) wortgefecht's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=63295 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > I know that there is a small contingent of technophiles who actually > have little appreciation of music & select their recordings to "show > off" the capabilities of their equipment. I am firmly in the opposite > camp, I would prefer not to "hear" my system at all, just the music. And > I hope that the vast majority of this forum's members would agree with > me on this. Except for those of us who play electric/electronic instruments (where the equipment is responsible for the sound to a high degree). > I am old enough to remember Peter Walker I also remember the days of Wireless World proper, when people like Baxandall and Linsley Hood not only shared their designs, but also the design rationale behind them. I guess the closest modern thing was Linear Audio - unfortunately the most recent issue was also the last one. :( "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Julf wrote: > Appreciation of music is subjective. Even appreciation of various form > of coloration and distortion is subjective. But laws of physics aren't. > > There is no problem with someone saying "I prefer the sound of tube > amps", but if someone says "green ethernet cables distort sound more > than red ethernet cables when transmitting streaming data", then we can > (and should) call "foo". I couldn't agree more: I am vehemently opposed to all manifestations of "snake oil": my kit is reasonably high-end, but my interconnects and speaker cables are not anything more than studio retailer (as opposed to hi-fi retailer) items which were no more expensive than the quality of their construction & terminators justify. My speaker cables (equal lengths of course for each channel) are basic OFC with bare wire termination securely attached to the amp's terminals (actually capable of being clamped gently with a ring spanner) & the speaker binding posts at the other end. I must confess to sitting my heavy amp on some inexpensive rubber isolation feet although it probably makes no difference - it's sitting on top of a sturdy cabinet on a concrete floor. it just looks a bit sexy! I know that there is a small contingent of technophiles who actually have little appreciation of music & select their recordings to "show off" the capabilities of their equipment. I am firmly in the opposite camp, I would prefer not to "hear" my system at all, just the music. And I hope that the vast majority of this forum's members would agree with me on this. I am old enough to remember Peter Walker who founded the Acoustical Manufacturing Co. responsible for some decent amplification and renowned electrostatic loudspeakers under the Quad brand name stating that "the perfect amplifier is a straight piece of wire with gain". Unfortunately, the realities of amplifier design necessitate considerably more complexity to get anywhere close to that simple objective, as his own products themselves bore out. Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > All that I am trying to point out is that our appreciation of music is > itself subjective - otherwise we would all like (& dislike) the same > things. Appreciation of music is subjective. Even appreciation of various form of coloration and distortion is subjective. But laws of physics aren't. There is no problem with someone saying "I prefer the sound of tube amps", but if someone says "green ethernet cables distort sound more than red ethernet cables when transmitting streaming data", then we can (and should) call "foo". "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
I don't think there's any point in working through all the points you raise. I did (a long time ago) get awarded an Open Exhibition to read Physics at Oxford University, so I think I do have a basis to comment on what science is and what it isn't. As Wittgenstein pointed out in the 1920's, any question beginning with the word "why" is meaningless from the standpoint of Logical Philosophy, which now leaves that area of conjecture to those of a religious persuasion. I am not an atheist (which is a logically indefensible position, since you can't know that a God of some kind or another does not exist), but I am strongly agnostic so have long ago stopped bothering with why things are the way they are. Physics has always been an investigation into "how" the universe functions. I suspect that Sir Arthur Eddington was close to the mark in the 1930's when he said, "The universe may not only be stranger than we imagine, it may well be stranger than we can imagine". There will always be new things to find out. IMO, Stephen Hawkin's stated objective of "knowing the mind of God" is flogging a dead horse, no matter how brilliant a scientist he is (or was when he did his best work). My vote for physicist of the 20th century goes to neither Einstein nor Hawking, but to Paul Dirac who did some astounding work on quantum mechanics (which underpins all electronics) and despite being little-known got himself buried in Westminster Abbey which is a signal honour. All that I am trying to point out is that our appreciation of music is itself subjective - otherwise we would all like (& dislike) the same things. This is a good thing, I'm all for human diversity it's got us a long way in a very short time from an evolutionary standpoint. Sorry to be so misunderstood. Dave :) Golden Earring's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66646 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Golden Earring wrote: > I've read through this thread with interest, and I fully agree with the > sentiments expressed about manufacturers' marketing campaigns being > fuelled by the "independent" reviews published by the plethora of > magazines. The sad reality is that both the manufacturers and the > magazines are trying to sustain their businesses and this is most easily > achieved by promoting the concept that this year's product is much > better than last year's, and correspondingly that this month's magazine > has something brand-new to say. > > > > > > > > Agreed. If every new product sounds better than its predecessor, why > > don't we have sonic perfection given that audio as we know it started > > out in the late 1920s? The executive summary is that we have a lot more > > differences than improvements, and most differences are actually > > imperceptible. Most perceptions are based on obviously invalid sighted > > evaluations. > > > > > > > > > > > > Manufacturers have now long learned this lesson, and we now have > > > "planned obsolescence" as a design requirement. > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know about that. I have a store room full of gear that still > > worked when I took out of service because it stopped being useful > > or lacked some feature that I thought would be desirable, and I'm > > pretty pragmatic. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevertheless, to continue the car analogy briefly, each year each model > > > will incorporate changes of some kind, many of them useless & some of > > > them plain stupid (like electronic handbrakes!). > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting. I have a car with an electronic handbrake, and just > > about every other electronic feature currently on the market. The > > electronic handbrake and the other electronic controls make sense > > given that the car uses electronic controls to achieve certain > > desirable goals for reliability, safety and convenience. > > > > The traditional cable handbrake system was actually one of the more > > inherently unreliable parts of just about every car I have ever > > owned. I don't have enough experience with the new car to put the > > reliability of its new technology into context, but so far, so good. > > > > > > The desirable aspect of electronic handbrakes is that it is easy to > > have them set themselves automatically whenever needed to achieve > > certain goals for safety. Unintended movements of automobiles are a > > significant source of accidents. > > > > > > > > > > > > As in many fields, once you manage to penetrate the bs, there is an > > > 80/20 rule at work which means that to achieve any meaningful/audible > > > improvement will require an ever-increasing level of design > > > sophistication & quality control effort in production meaning £££'s > > > being spent in accordance with the law of diminishing returns. > > > > > } > > > > There is a law of diminishing returns that is particularly > > applicable to audio, but it is far more harsh than 80/20. At this > > time other than loudspeakers and rooms no further meaningful > > improvements in audible performance are possible at all. One about a > > dollar or less is spent on most major audio component parts (ICs > > like op amp and digital converters), no further audible improvements > > can be obtained because the existing ones already cause no audible > > degradation of the signals they process. > > > > [quote> > > > Having said all that, I wish my music system to operate in order to > > suspend my disbelief that I am listening to sophisticated > > electronics and fancy transducers when I want to think that I am > > listening to music. Ultimately there must be a subjective element to > > this, and indeed a personal one, depending upon which aspects of a > > real musical performance one feels most important: enjoying music is > > after all an emotional experience. > > > > > > An interesting question that can be answered is how much satisfaction > can be obtained when most forms of subjective gratification are held > constant, such as in blind tests. > > > > > > > I myself consider that I'm getting close when a reproduction makes the > > hairs on the back of my neck stand up - I most commonly get this > > response listening to exceptional vocalists, although solo piano is a > > good test of system too because 1. it's a difficult signal to reproduce > > accurately because of the initial transients to each note, from the > > variable hammer action of the internal mechanism of the instrument, and > > 2. because most of us have a pretty good idea of what a real piano > > played live sounds like. > > > > > > Given how little live music is actually listened to and how much of > that is actually an electronic fiction, I serious doubt the above > statement. Furthermore, every live venue puts its own sonic imprint on > the music listened to in it. This means that you may know what a flute > sounds like played by a certain artist playing a
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
I've read through this thread with interest, and I fully agree with the sentiments expressed about manufacturers' marketing campaigns being fuelled by the "independent" reviews published by the plethora of magazines. The sad reality is that both the manufacturers and the magazines are trying to sustain their businesses and this is most easily achieved by promoting the concept that this year's product is much better than last year's, and correspondingly that this month's magazine has something brand-new to say. I have seen the argument advanced that the Wall Street crash of 1929 was at least partially induced by Henry Ford having managed to sell his rugged & user repairable Model T to all possible consumers, including many of his own workers who he remunerated relatively generously (for a capitalist) using some of the economy of scale cost savings derived from his revolutionary production line process to fund their higher wages. Therefore he ultimately ran out of new customers and his revenue stream. Manufacturers have now long learned this lesson, and we now have "planned obsolescence" as a design requirement. Nevertheless, to continue the car analogy briefly, each year each model will incorporate changes of some kind, many of them useless & some of them plain stupid (like electronic handbrakes!). As in many fields, once you manage to penetrate the bs, there is an 80/20 rule at work which means that to achieve any meaningful/audible improvement will require an ever-increasing level of design sophistication & quality control effort in production meaning £££'s being spent in accordance with the law of diminishing returns. Having said all that, I wish my music system to operate in order to suspend my disbelief that I am listening to sophisticated electronics and fancy transducers when I want to think that I am listening to music. Ultimately there must be a subjective element to this, and indeed a personal one, depending upon which aspects of a real musical performance one feels most important: enjoying music is after all an emotional experience. I myself consider that I'm getting close when a reproduction makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up - I most commonly get this response listening to exceptional vocalists, although solo piano is a good test of system to because 1. it's a difficult signal to reproduce accurately because of the initial transients to each note, from the variable hammer action of the internal mechanism of the instrument, and 2. because most of us have a pretty good idea of what a real piano played live sounds like. I usually buy components for my system second-hand whenever possible, or look for ex-demo bargains when something I want cannot easily be acquired s/h. A major reason for this is of course that I am a skin-flint, but joking aside, until you hook a piece of kit up with your other gear in your own listening room and then listen to the result intensively for a couple of weeks at least, you will not know if it improves your musical enjoyment. There are plenty of combinations of kit which don't work well together, and a rare few that have a synergistic effect. And also something that sounds good initially may induce "listening fatigue" after a longer audition. Buyers of s/h audio gear are normally simply bothered by whether it actually works at all or not, and not unduly concerned about the provenance, although there are a strange subset of "original packaging" fanatics around. My point here is that if I buy something this way, and later conclude that it does not suit my needs I can usually sell it on without losing much (if any) money. Just because something doesn't gel with my gear or ring my bell doesn't mean that someone else won't be delighted by it so I don't feel any moral conflict in this approach. Unfortunately, if everyone else followed my approach (I don't buy the magazines either) a number of manufacturers would inevitably go out of business unless they were able readily to diversify their activities into other areas. There would also eventually be a dearth of s/h kit for me to purchase so this is a short-term strategy: however, at age 62 I must accept that my life itself is rapidly assuming short-term characteristics... Like others on this site, I have an enquiring mind and am interested in how the "magic" of producing music from a bunch of boxes can be achieved and I thoroughly endorse the scientific method as the only rational way to proceed. I would note though that "science" is not actually a body of knowledge but rather a set of working hypotheses each of which can never be definitely proved but can only be definitively disproved by readily repeatable experiments the results of which disagree with the prediction of the theory. So we always need to be careful making definitive statements of the nature of "science says x, so you must be wrong" unless the specific matter in question has already been subjected to those repeated experiments which have
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
arnyk wrote: > However, the fundamental cause, which is that so called sighted > listening tests are obvious, prevalent and largely uncontested remains > unchanged. > > Fact is that the criteria that most people instinctively use to evaluate > audio gear "proves" that the Golden ears are right. That has to be > overcome, or nothing will change. Direct A-B sighted listening tests (e.g. directly comparing two components) are almost hard science compared to sighted memory listening tests where a component is compared to one's memory of another component - my absolute favorite! Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. & sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 & Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose & Muso Server: LMS 7.9 on dedicated windows 10 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
Mnyb wrote: > Mostly hope they seems to get older fewer :) and high end shops gets few > and far between . > Which says that golden ears who are boomers are going to go away. Doooh. > > But on the other hand internet :/ yeah you can live in your filterbubble > and buy stuff online . > Exactly. > > The cult may live on for a long time . > My projection is: indefinitely. > > Some sites even enforce the filterbubble by banning the Scientific > method , specifically DBT but you can't cherry pick science. > By rejecting parts you actually rejects the whole deal ,sadly . > Exactly. The net of is that they are throttling science because it causes contention and controversy. Everybody who is surprised by that, should get a pointed cap and sit in a corner! ;-) > > In my own filterbubble ive noticed fewer die hard audiophiles and people > getting more reasonable ? > > Mostly my own hope yes . > I always hope for the best, and I was as optimistic as anybody back in the days when we invented and promoted ABX which was to review, 1978-1982. > > Finally the information age have given people like you and archimago a > voice :) thats gives me most of my hope . > That is true - ragazines like Stereophile don't have the large and favored footprint in the marketplace for ideas that they once had. However, they've been joined by so many who are touting the same anti-science bilge. Let's face it, golden earism is a proven way to make money and will remain strong even dominant as long as the placebo effect is allowed to run loose. > > Before this its was exclusively up to the corrupt hifi mags to > comunicate in these matters However, the fundamental cause, which is that so called sighted listening tests are obvious, prevalent and largely uncontested remains unchanged. Fact is that the criteria that most people instinctively use to evaluate audio gear "proves" that the Golden ears are right. That has to be overcome, or nothing will change. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Intona USB thing
arnyk wrote: > > > Comforting words, but is their any reliable evidence to back them up? Mostly hope they seems to get older fewer :) and high end shops gets few and far between . But on the other hand internet :/ yeah you can live in your filterbubble and buy stuff online . The cult may live on for a long time . Some sites even enforce the filterbubble by banning the Scientific method , specifically DBT but you can't cherry pick science. By rejecting parts you actually rejects the whole deal ,sadly . In my own filterbubble ive noticed fewer die hard audiophiles and people getting more reasonable ? Mostly my own hope yes . Finally the information age have given people like you and archimago a voice :) thats gives me most of my hope . Before this its was exclusively up to the corrupt hifi mags to comunicate in these matters Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106914 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
