Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Correlation v. causality
On 5 Dec 2007, at 02:35, jon louis mann wrote: > It may prevent most people from being evil some of the time but it > also makes most people evil some of the time too. > > Catholic ideas about birth control are evil whenever applied. What > about the various recent evil Muslim antics? > > William T Goodall > > the original judeo religion which spawned christianity, and islam > and all their schisms is far less evil and dogmatic in its campaigns > against heretics. reform and reconstructionist jews are far more > progressive than its conservative and orthodox forbears. some > protestant religions and moderate muslims are improving, also, so > tere is hope... i would not say that all evangelical > fundamentalists are stupid, just ignorant. they often make a choice > to ignore facts and are motived more by emotion than rational > thought. people who are sceptical and free thinkers are probably > more intelligent in general because they make a conscious choice to > reject mystical superstition and creation mythos. Catholics are still the largest Christian sect and Sharia law is part of Muslim culture. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or Allow?" ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Correlation v. causality (was Re: Poll finds more Americans believe in devil than Darwin)
On 5 Dec 2007, at 00:55, Warren Ockrassa wrote: > On Dec 4, 2007, at 10:56 AM, William T Goodall wrote: > >> >> On 4 Dec 2007, at 16:26, Richard Baker wrote: >> >>> Nick said: >>> >>>> I'm pointing out that there's a correlation between skepticism >>>> about >>>> science >>>> and good science. The country that includes a lot of skeptics >>>> about >>>> science >>>> is the same country that excels in science. Therefore, one may >>>> leap >>>> to the >>>> conclusion that skepticism about science causes good science. >>> >>> It's not scepticism though. The people in the US who don't believe >>> in >>> evolution by natural selection by and large aren't saying "we don't >>> think evolution by natural selection is an adequate explanation for >>> the extant biological diversity so for the moment we won't believe >>> in >>> it even though there are no plausible alternatives" but rather "we >>> don't believe in evolution by natural selection because these fairy >>> stories are so much more plausible despite the total lack of >>> evidence >>> for them!" That's not scepticism, it's misplaced credulity. >> >> And people who think like that are dangerous to themselves and >> others. >> Hence religion is evil. > > No more nor less so than any other institution. Other institutions don't necessarily require people to believe untrue things. > -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If so, then Microsoft would have great products." - Steve Jobs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Correlation v. causality
On 4 Dec 2007, at 23:46, Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote: > Charlie Bell wrote: >> >>> And people who think like that are dangerous to themselves and >>> others. >>> Hence religion is evil. >> >> I don't agree that religion is evil. It just opens a large door to >> evil by fostering unquestioning obedience. >> > Facts: > > (1) Most religions tell people to obey the higher authorities > and don't question them. > > (2) Most people are stupid, and forced to think for themselves > will opt for the most stupid and evil choices > > Corollary: > > Religion is not evil, because it prevents most people from being > evil. > It may prevent most people from being evil some of the time but it also makes most people evil some of the time too. Catholic ideas about birth control are evil whenever applied. What about the various recent evil Muslim antics? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or Allow?" ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Correlation v. causality
On 4 Dec 2007, at 23:40, Charlie Bell wrote: >> >> Since they bear the children, you can blame women for >> wars.Of course you also have to give them credit for >> peace. In this model the low birth rate is the reason Western Europe >> has been so peaceful since WW II. > > Apart from Ireland and Spain... ;) >> >> Keith Henson > > Welcome back Keith. :-) Good post. Quite a bit to digest, I'll give it > another read later. > > For now, I'm a bit out of it on codeine and so on. Had all four wisdom > teeth out less than 48 hours ago. I went partying after I had three out and scared people with my blood- filled smile. Black stool Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If so, then Microsoft would have great products." - Steve Jobs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Correlation v. causality (was Re: Poll finds more Americans believe in devil than Darwin)
On 4 Dec 2007, at 20:32, Charlie Bell wrote: > > On 05/12/2007, at 4:56 AM, William T Goodall wrote: >> >> And people who think like that are dangerous to themselves and >> others. >> Hence religion is evil. > > I don't agree that religion is evil. It just opens a large door to > evil by fostering unquestioning obedience. > But that's evil in itself! Dissenter Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Correlation v. causality (was Re: Poll finds more Americans believe in devil than Darwin)
On 4 Dec 2007, at 19:44, Dave Land wrote: > On Dec 4, 2007, at 9:56 AM, William T Goodall wrote: > >> On 4 Dec 2007, at 16:26, Richard Baker wrote: >> >>> Nick said: >>> >>>> I'm pointing out that there's a correlation between skepticism >>>> about >>>> science >>>> and good science. The country that includes a lot of skeptics >>>> about >>>> science >>>> is the same country that excels in science. Therefore, one may >>>> leap >>>> to the >>>> conclusion that skepticism about science causes good science. >>> >>> It's not scepticism though. The people in the US who don't believe >>> in >>> evolution by natural selection by and large aren't saying "we don't >>> think evolution by natural selection is an adequate explanation for >>> the extant biological diversity so for the moment we won't believe >>> in >>> it even though there are no plausible alternatives" but rather "we >>> don't believe in evolution by natural selection because these fairy >>> stories are so much more plausible despite the total lack of >>> evidence >>> for them!" That's not scepticism, it's misplaced credulity. >>> >> >> And people who think like that are dangerous to themselves and >> others. >> Hence religion is evil. > > *Sigh* > > Saying the same thing over and over again is not the same thing as > making a reasoned argument. Denying the same thing over and over again is not the same thing as making a reasoned argument. Do you think people who act as if made up nonsense is true are not harmful? Or do you think all the nonsense is true? Because if you don't agree with one of those then you agree with me. > > > Hence the question of the possible evil of religion remains open. Not really. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Correlation v. causality (was Re: Poll finds more Americans believe in devil than Darwin)
On 4 Dec 2007, at 16:26, Richard Baker wrote: > Nick said: > >> I'm pointing out that there's a correlation between skepticism about >> science >> and good science. The country that includes a lot of skeptics about >> science >> is the same country that excels in science. Therefore, one may leap >> to the >> conclusion that skepticism about science causes good science. > > It's not scepticism though. The people in the US who don't believe in > evolution by natural selection by and large aren't saying "we don't > think evolution by natural selection is an adequate explanation for > the extant biological diversity so for the moment we won't believe in > it even though there are no plausible alternatives" but rather "we > don't believe in evolution by natural selection because these fairy > stories are so much more plausible despite the total lack of evidence > for them!" That's not scepticism, it's misplaced credulity. > And people who think like that are dangerous to themselves and others. Hence religion is evil. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Correlation v. causality (was Re: Poll finds more Americans believe in devil than Darwin)
On 4 Dec 2007, at 01:12, Warren Ockrassa wrote: > On Dec 3, 2007, at 5:03 PM, Nick Arnett wrote: > >> In hopes of going somewhere more interesting with this topic, let me >> offer >> this challenge -- can you (or anybody else who can stomach the >> subject) come >> up with external causalities when religion and evil co-occur? If >> we're >> going to argue about whether or not faith is anti-scientific, how >> about if >> we do so in a reasonably logical manner? It only seems fitting. > > If I understand the question properly, examples of the politicization > of religion might fit the bill. There are are times when religious > fervor has been manipulated as a tool by those in power to control > various factions. > Political ideologies are often matters of faith too though. That's why politicians ignore scientific studies that contradict their beliefs. As I have pointed out before political cults like Nazism and Marxism are quasi-religious in nature. Religion doesn't have to be about the supernatural - one of the world's major religions (Confucianism) is actually based on a handbook for civil servants. > -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Correlation v. causality (was Re: Poll finds more Americans believe in devil than Darwin)
On 4 Dec 2007, at 00:03, Nick Arnett wrote: > On Dec 3, 2007 11:02 AM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >> >> >> >>> This demonstrates that skepticism leads to better science, right? >> > >> >> You're arguing that evolution is bad science? > > > No. > > I'm pointing out that there's a correlation between skepticism about > science > and good science. The country that includes a lot of skeptics about > science > is the same country that excels in science. Therefore, one may leap > to the > conclusion that skepticism about science causes good science. Or > one can > think more rationally and realize that there are other factors, such > as > freedom or wealth, that cause both science and skepticism to thrive. But America is losing its excellence in science. One of the tables I quoted showed that American high schools now produce kids with a significantly below average grasp of science. > > > My point is that co-occurrence and correlation should never be > mistake for > causality. I have a theory, evidence and Occam's razor. If you want to posit an extra factor that causes both evil and religion it's up to you to come up with it. And if there is such a factor than reducing it will reduce both evil and religion :-) > > >> >> >>> You have to show causality -- that religion *causes* evil, no just >>> that they >>> co-occur. The theory is that religion causes evil by clouding minds. That's the causality. The correlation is there. QED. >>> >> >> You sound like the tobacco lobby claiming that cigarettes don't cause >> cancer! >> > > And if I sound like them, surely I must be just as venal. I'm not > sure if > that's better described as a red herring or just a stupid argument by > analogy, but in either case, it is illogical. Don't you think it's > a bit > hypocritical to abandon logic when arguing that religion causes > people to > believe unscientific ideas? > I was pointing out that you are following a typical pattern of denial. > > When people are encouraged to believe any old nonsense they choose as >> a matter of 'faith' it is not surprising that they lose the ability >> to >> discriminate in other areas too. > > > It'll be just fine with me if you never trot out that particular > straw man > again. It's not a straw man. How can people partition their thinking so that they abandon reason in just one area without it polluting their thinking about other matters? How can they have superstitious beliefs that don't conflict with reality on occasion? > > > You've set an impossibly high burden of proof by claiming that > religion > causes evil. You'll never prove it. I have proved it. > -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Correlation v. causality (was Re: Poll finds more Americans believe in devil than Darwin)
On 3 Dec 2007, at 16:04, Nick Arnett wrote: > On Dec 3, 2007 1:41 AM, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >> >> Darwin's theory of evolution met a far more skeptical audience which >> might surprise some outsiders as the United States is renowned for >> its >> excellence in scientific research. > > > This demonstrates that skepticism leads to better science, right? You're arguing that evolution is bad science? > > > I say that only because anti-religious people constantly confuse > correlation > with causality. It's only fair if I do, too, even though it is > terribly > unscientific. But hey, I'm an American. Stimulated by being > surrounded by > those who are skeptical of science, I strive to excel. > > Seriously, though, confusing correlation and causality has become my > main > problem with your anti-religious postings, William. If you're going > to > argue that religion is anti-scientific and causes all sorts of > social ills, > it seems that you have no freedom do simply cite all sorts of > correlations. > You have to show causality -- that religion *causes* evil, no just > that they > co-occur. You sound like the tobacco lobby claiming that cigarettes don't cause cancer! > > > It is basic to statistics that when things correlate, the cause > often is a > third factor. The coexistence of religion and evil isn't exactly > news, now > is it? > > Let me suggest the sort of third factor that could cause the > correlation > between fundamentalist religion and creationism: greed and fear -- > leaders' > greed for money and political power; followers' fear of what might > happen if > they misbehave. Keeping people ignorant has been a tool of greedy > people, > religious or not, for all of history. It is demagoguery and > religion has no > corner on it. > > It's bad science use correlations to say that religion is to blame for > evil. It's like saying that hospitals obviously are the cause of > disease > because a survey showed that a high percentage of people who go to > hospitals > are sick. Correlation does not imply causality. It certainly indicates somewhere to look very closely for it though. And when multiple indicators all point the same way you need a much better counter-argument than appealing to 'correlation does not imply causality.' > > >> >> The survey, which has a sampling error of plus or minus two percent, >> found that 35 percent of the respondents believed in UFOs and 31 >> percent in witches. > > > How many of the UFO believers imagine that dolphins could fly > spaceships? > Now that's truly bizarre. When people are encouraged to believe any old nonsense they choose as a matter of 'faith' it is not surprising that they lose the ability to discriminate in other areas too. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Evolution Debate Led to Ouster, Official Says
http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2007/11/dont_mess_with_texas_education.html "Don’t mess with Texas education - November 30, 2007 Attitudes to education differ round the world, but things are looking pretty odd in Texas right now. The director of the state’s science curriculum is claiming she was forced out for forwarding an email. Its content was not a risqué joke or a sleazy photo: it was a note about a forthcoming lecture by a philosopher who has been heavily involved in debates over creationism. The Statesman reports that the Texas Education Agency had recommended firing Chris Comer for repeated misconduct and insubordination (the details of which are unclear) before she resigned. But Comer and others are saying she was forced out for seeming to endorse criticism of intelligent design. An agency memo, according to the Statesman, said: “Ms Comer’s e-mail implies endorsement of the speaker and implies that TEA endorses the speaker's position on a subject on which the agency must remain neutral.” In other news, a new international ranking of the science ability of 15 year olds has been conducted by the OECD. The US is below average, a little under Latvia. Finland tops the chart. Those with spare time might find it interesting to compare this chart of the new OECD ranking, with this chart of belief in evolution." [About the OECD study] http://www.pisa.oecd.org/document/40/0,3343,en_32252351_32235731_39701864_1_1_1_1,00.html [The OECD data chart] http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/8/39700724.pdf [Evolution acceptance chart] http://tinyurl.com/rh4mt The USA is at the bottom of the evolution chart between Latvia and Turkey - two countries that also rank statistically significantly below the OECD average for science education. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Two years from now, spam will be solved." - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Poll finds more Americans believe in devil than Darwin
http://uk.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=UKN2922875820071129 "Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:53pm GMT By Ed Stoddard DALLAS (Reuters Life!) - More Americans believe in a literal hell and the devil than Darwin's theory of evolution, according to a new Harris poll released on Thursday. It is the latest survey to highlight America's deep level of religiosity, a cultural trait that sets it apart from much of the developed world. It also helps explain many of its political battles which Europeans find bewildering, such as efforts to have "Intelligent Design" theory -- which holds life is too complex to have evolved by chance -- taught in schools alongside evolution. The poll of 2,455 U.S. adults from Nov 7 to 13 found that 82 percent of those surveyed believed in God, a figure unchanged since the question was asked in 2005. It further found that 79 percent believed in miracles, 75 percent in heaven, while 72 percent believed that Jesus is God or the Son of God. Belief in hell and the devil was expressed by 62 percent. Darwin's theory of evolution met a far more skeptical audience which might surprise some outsiders as the United States is renowned for its excellence in scientific research. Only 42 percent of those surveyed said they believed in Darwin's theory which largely informs how biology and related sciences are approached. While often referred to as evolution it is in fact the 19th century British intellectual's theory of "natural selection." There are unsurprising differences among religious groups. "Born-again Christians are more likely to believe in the traditional elements of Christianity than are Catholics or Protestants. For example, 95 percent believe in miracles, compared to 87 percent and 89 percent among Catholics and Protestants," according to the poll. "On the other hand only 16 percent of born-again Christians, compared to 43 percent of Catholics and 30 percent of Protestants, believe in Darwin's theory of evolution." What is perhaps surprising is that substantial minorities in America apparently believe in ghosts, UFOs, witches, astrology and reincarnation. The survey, which has a sampling error of plus or minus two percent, found that 35 percent of the respondents believed in UFOs and 31 percent in witches. More born-again Christians -- a term which usually refers to evangelical Protestants who place great emphasis on the conversion experience -- believed in witches at 37 percent than mainline Protestants or Catholics, both at 32 percent." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time." - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Evolution Debate Led to Ouster, Official Says
"By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS AUSTIN, Tex., Nov. 29 (AP) — The state’s director of science curriculum said she resigned this month under pressure from officials who said she had given the appearance of criticizing the teaching of intelligent design. The Texas Education Agency put the director, Chris Comer, on 30 days’ paid administrative leave in late October, resulting in what Ms. Comer called a forced resignation. The move came shortly after she forwarded an e-mail message announcing a presentation by Barbara Forrest, an author of “Creationism’s Trojan Horse.” The book argues that creationist politics are behind the movement to get intelligent design theory taught in public schools. Ms. Comer sent the message to several people and a few online communities. Ms. Comer, who held her position for nine years, said she believed evolution politics were behind her ousting. “None of the other reasons they gave are, in and of themselves, firing offenses,” she said. Education agency officials declined to comment Wednesday on the matter. But they explained their recommendation to fire Ms. Comer in documents obtained by The Austin American-Statesman through the Texas Public Information Act. “Ms. Comer’s e-mail implies endorsement of the speaker and implies that T.E.A. endorses the speaker’s position on a subject on which the agency must remain neutral,” the officials said. The agency documents say that officials recommended firing Ms. Comer for repeated acts of misconduct and insubordination. The officials said forwarding the e-mail message conflicted with her job responsibilities and violated a directive that she not communicate with anyone outside the agency regarding a pending science curriculum review. The documents criticize Ms. Comer for giving a presentation and attending an off-site meeting without approval. It also said she had complained that “there was no real leadership at the agency.”" -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Nutter admits he's a looney
""You talk about it in our system and, frankly, people do think you're a nutter. I mean … you may go off and sit in the corner and … commune with the man upstairs and then come back and say 'right, I've been told the answer and that's it'."" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/25/nblair125.xml&DCMP=EMC-new_25112007 -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Salman Rushdie
On 10 Nov 2007, at 23:02, Doug wrote: > William wrote: > >> I've read his first two novels _Grimus_ and _Midnight's Children_ and >> have the next two in my 'to be read' pile where they have been for >> the >> last 20+ years. >> >> _Grimus_ is an above average fantasy novel. _Midnight's Children_ >> is a >> magical realist novel about the creation of modern India. Of the >> two I >> haven't read _The Satanic Verses_ is the one that got Rushdie a >> fatwah. >> >> You should probably start with _Midnight's Children_ as it's his most >> highly regarded work and I found it very readable unlike his later >> stuff. > > Thanks, William. I assume then that you have had a false start or > two on > the two unread books? Yes, but not recently. Too many writers, too many unread books. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Salman Rushdie
On 9 Nov 2007, at 06:47, Doug wrote: > Has anyone read anything by Rushdie? I went to a Rushdie lecture > tonight > and he seems like a very interesting character. I've read his first two novels _Grimus_ and _Midnight's Children_ and have the next two in my 'to be read' pile where they have been for the last 20+ years. _Grimus_ is an above average fantasy novel. _Midnight's Children_ is a magical realist novel about the creation of modern India. Of the two I haven't read _The Satanic Verses_ is the one that got Rushdie a fatwah. You should probably start with _Midnight's Children_ as it's his most highly regarded work and I found it very readable unlike his later stuff. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time." - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ghostpost...synthetic biology and security
On 7 Nov 2007, at 13:56, Dan M wrote: > > >> -Original Message- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:brin-l- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On >> Behalf Of William T Goodall >> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 4:57 AM >> To: Killer Bs Discussion >> Subject: Re: Ghostpost...synthetic biology and security >> >> >> On 7 Nov 2007, at 01:27, Dan M wrote: >> >>> What I still don't understand is why people don't want to know the >>> actual >>> viewpoints of folks they don't agree with. >>> >> >> So how do you explain your propensity for straw man arguments? > > ?? > > I was responding to a post calling Gautam a shrill for a non-existent > policy. I've seen that type of argument repeatedly, here and > elsewhere. > Where's the straw man? > I was responding to that particular sentence which is why I snipped away the rest. Clarity Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or Allow?" ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 7 Nov 2007, at 14:17, Julia Thompson wrote: > > > On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, William T Goodall wrote: > >> >> On 7 Nov 2007, at 01:32, Dan M wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Not about invading other countries in the name of the Lord, Allah >>>> or any > >>>> athropomorphic deity... >>> >>> Just to be clear, is it the consensus here that no country should >>> ever >>> interfere with the internal affairs of another? >> >> Clearly this should only be done if it's a good idea. > > And who decides whether or not it's a good idea? The interfering > country > will probably think it's an excellent idea in most cases. The > interfered-with country will probably not. It's OK if the interfering country is righteous but not if they're wrongeous. Droll Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ghostpost...synthetic biology and security
On 7 Nov 2007, at 01:27, Dan M wrote: > What I still don't understand is why people don't want to know the > actual > viewpoints of folks they don't agree with. > So how do you explain your propensity for straw man arguments? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 7 Nov 2007, at 01:32, Dan M wrote: > > >> >> Not about invading other countries in the name of the Lord, Allah >> or any > >> athropomorphic deity... > > Just to be clear, is it the consensus here that no country should ever > interfere with the internal affairs of another? Clearly this should only be done if it's a good idea. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 7 Nov 2007, at 01:05, Dan M wrote: > > Without this, it is hard to not project oneself unto the Jesus and > find that > the heart of Christianity lies in what one tends to believe > oneself. As > Albert Schweitzer wrote: > > "There is no historical task which so reveals a man's true self as the > writing of a Life of Jesus. No vital force comes into the figure > unless a > man breathes into it all the hate or all the love of which he is > capable..." > It's like constructionism v purposivism! Do as I say not as I mean Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time." - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 6 Nov 2007, at 14:47, Julia Thompson wrote: > > > On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Doug wrote: > >> Ronn! wrote: >> >> >>> So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in >>> God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? >> >> >> Wouldn't that depend on what particular brand of God this person >> believed >> in and which particular folks were making the observation? >> >> Doug > > Yeah. I mean, wouldn't that be appropriate for a follower of > Dionysus? > Are there many megachurches of Dionysus in the USA? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 6 Nov 2007, at 01:51, Dave Land wrote: > I have called myself a Christian, but I despise the disease that > crawls > among us and advertises itself by that name. I do not believe that > Christianity is mainly about morality. I believe that plenty of people > over the centuries have tried to portray it as such, but the > "morality" > of Jesus was something that most self-proclaimed moralists would decry > as bleeding-heart liberalism today. > > Make no mistake about it: Jesus would be just as unpopular with most > people who call themselves Good Christians™ today as he was among > those > who called themselves Good Jews™ back then. It's ironic that a hippy communist creed of the poor and oppressed should be the primary religion of a wealthy consumerist nation like the USA. It does require some remarkable acts of interpretation. Love thy neighbour or we'll burn your village and enslave you Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Two years from now, spam will be solved." - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 5 Nov 2007, at 23:41, Charlie Bell wrote: > At the moment, as well as the other stuff I'm doing, I'm growing a > moustache for Movember. Aaahhh! Wordplay Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 5 Nov 2007, at 09:18, Charlie Bell wrote: > > On 05/11/2007, at 3:42 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: >> >> >> So what would most folks think of someone who professed a belief in >> God and spent his evenings and weekends drinking and carousing? > > They'd think he was a pastor in a megachurch... Only if he went cottaging in public toilets as well. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religiosity correlates with poverty
On 4 Nov 2007, at 17:15, Nick Arnett wrote: > On 11/4/07, William T Goodall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258 >> >> "Global publics are sharply divided over the relationship between >> religion and morality. In much of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, >> there is a strong consensus that belief in God is necessary for >> morality and good values. Throughout much of Europe, however, >> majorities think morality is achievable without faith. Meanwhile, >> opinions are more mixed in the Americas, including in the United >> States, where 57% say that one must believe in God to have good >> values >> and be moral, while 41% disagree. > > > The question isn't even appropriate to Christianity. Even though > there is > no shortage of people who have the idea that Christianity's value is > in > making people moral, that's not what Christ taught. His strongest > criticisms were aimed at the "Moral Majority" of his time, the > self-righteous people. Christ was not a moralist, he was a savior. > His > message was about sacrifice much more than obedience. How come 57% of Americans answered that question that way then? Presumably that's their understanding of Christianity even if it isn't yours (most Americans self-identify as Christian.) > > > If you ask a survey question that's based on erroneous assumptions, > the > results don't mean what the pollsters intended. The survey doesn't make any assumptions - they asked the same questions in Muslim and Hindu and other countries. It's you that has the Christian bias. > > > It is perfectly reasonable for Christians to believe that morality is > achievable without belief in God. That's one less phony argument for religion anyway. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Religiosity correlates with poverty
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=258 "Global publics are sharply divided over the relationship between religion and morality. In much of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, there is a strong consensus that belief in God is necessary for morality and good values. Throughout much of Europe, however, majorities think morality is achievable without faith. Meanwhile, opinions are more mixed in the Americas, including in the United States, where 57% say that one must believe in God to have good values and be moral, while 41% disagree. The survey finds a strong relationship between a country's religiosity and its economic status. In poorer nations, religion remains central to the lives of individuals, while secular perspectives are more common in richer nations. This relationship generally is consistent across regions and countries, although there are some exceptions, including most notably the United States, which is a much more religious country than its level of prosperity would indicate. Other nations deviate from the pattern as well, including the oil-rich, predominantly Muslim -- and very religious -- kingdom of Kuwait. The survey also measured global opinion about contemporary social issues, finding a mix of traditional and progressive views. Throughout Western Europe and much of the Americas, there is widespread tolerance towards homosexuality. However, the United States, Japan, South Korea, and Israel stand apart from other wealthy nations on this issue; in each of these countries, fewer than half of those surveyed say homosexuality should be accepted by society. Meanwhile, in most of Africa, Asia and the Middle East, there is less tolerance toward homosexuality." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Whedon returns to TV
rying to download the latest trend into a Hollywood actress and make them like everyone else," she said. "I even love my character's name, Echo. And I'm starting my training, so I can get into that 'Dark Angel'-on-crack shape where I can do everything." 20th Century Fox TV chairman Gary Newman said the "Dollhouse" pitch reminded him of an earlier time, when Whedon brought the "Buffy" universe into being. "He's creating this fascinating universe that's a little bit out of the ordinary," Newman said. "The emotions and experiences play beautifully as metaphors for real issues. ... His ability to combine suspense, humor, action and emotion is remarkable." It's not the first time Whedon and Dushku have plotted to work together; the duo briefly flirted with creating a "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" spinoff featuring her character, Faith. But the two ultimately decided not to pursue the idea. Beyond Dushku's character, the show will also revolve around the people who run the mysterious "dollhouse" and two other "dolls," a man and woman who are friendly with Echo. Then there's the federal agent who has heard an urban myth about the dolls, and is trying to investigate their existence. Whedon admitted there's a little dose of "The Matrix" in the plot -- "I do have that entire movie tattooed on my brain" -- and said "Dollhouse" will enable him and Dushku to explore some political and social issues. Given Whedon's popularity as a sci-fi brand, Liguori said he wished the project had been ready to announce at ComiCon. "He's got an unbelievably loyal following, and that's an earned brand," Liguori said. "So much of it is based on Joss' love of what he does and the genius of how he does it."" -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mac cult attacks
On 18 Oct 2007, at 20:41, Andrew Crystall wrote: > On 18 Oct 2007 at 20:26, William T Goodall wrote: > >> >> Twice isn't 'many'. And the tablet doesn't include a phone. Better to >> compare with the iPod Touch which starts at just £199. > > Twice, plus the expensive contract the iPhone comes with. And sure, > you can compare the Touch but it's still a mulrimedia device, not a > computer. How is it not a computer? It has UNIX running on a fast RISC CPU, WiFi access, a web browser and a variety of other applications and the SDK will be available in February. > > If I get another small device it'll have a e-ink screen for reading > ebooks. The iPhone already has native pdf display. > >> SDK in February Maru > > Yep, a SDK in Febuary or a full Linux install now? Gee. Definitely the SDK in February. Linux is OK for servers Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who study history are doomed to repeat it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mac cult attacks
On 18 Oct 2007, at 20:19, Andrew Crystall wrote: > On 18 Oct 2007 at 19:53, William T Goodall wrote: > >> >> On 18 Oct 2007, at 19:33, Andrew Crystall wrote: >>> >>> Sure. Current web tablet (£120) and Wifi adaptor (£15) with a >>> deacent >>> 9" screen and stylus, or an iPhone. Gee! >> >> That whole stylus thing pretty much makes it no contest. > > Absolutely (it's an active stylus, not a passive, I should add). It's > a good way to use a deacent sized screen as opposed to poking arround > on a far smaller screen with no tactile feedback, when the smaller > device is many times as expensive. Twice isn't 'many'. And the tablet doesn't include a phone. Better to compare with the iPod Touch which starts at just £199. SDK in February Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time." - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mac cult attacks
On 18 Oct 2007, at 19:31, Andrew Crystall wrote: > To little, too late. Amazon has allready got more songs DRM-free. > Apple still bent over backwards to fall into line with the Axis of > DRM evil, and that is going to forever taint them. > Amazon's two million sounds very much like iTunes' two million. After all they have to get them from the same sources in the end. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mac cult attacks
On 18 Oct 2007, at 19:33, Andrew Crystall wrote: > On 18 Oct 2007 at 0:56, William T Goodall wrote: > >> >> On 18 Oct 2007, at 00:07, Andrew Crystall wrote: >> >>> >>> I have an old web tablet which can interface with a USB wifi >>> adaptor. >>> That gets me online in most places arround here, and the bus I >>> use to >>> london has free wifi.. >> >> The iPhone has wifi. > > Sure. Current web tablet (£120) and Wifi adaptor (£15) with a deacent > 9" screen and stylus, or an iPhone. Gee! That whole stylus thing pretty much makes it no contest. Clay Tablets and Cuneiform Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Our products just aren't engineered for security." - Brian Valentine, senior vice president in charge of Microsoft's Windows development team. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mac cult attacks
On 18 Oct 2007, at 00:55, William T Goodall wrote: > > On 17 Oct 2007, at 22:53, Andrew Crystall wrote: > >> >> Then of course, I'm not buying into the RIAA-MPAA-Apple Axis of DRM >> Evil. > > Like most mp3 players the iPhone supports but does not require DRM. > Even if you buy music from the iTunes store there are DRM free tracks > available there too. In fact two million tracks (a third of the total) on the iTunes store are DRM free and this number will rise as Apple negotiates new deals with labels. Press release Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Most people have more than the average number of legs. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mac cult attacks
On 18 Oct 2007, at 00:07, Andrew Crystall wrote: > > I have an old web tablet which can interface with a USB wifi adaptor. > That gets me online in most places arround here, and the bus I use to > london has free wifi.. The iPhone has wifi. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mac cult attacks
On 17 Oct 2007, at 22:53, Andrew Crystall wrote: > > Then of course, I'm not buying into the RIAA-MPAA-Apple Axis of DRM > Evil. Like most mp3 players the iPhone supports but does not require DRM. Even if you buy music from the iTunes store there are DRM free tracks available there too. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible." - Bertrand Russell ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mac cult attacks
On 17 Oct 2007, at 15:08, Russell Chapman wrote: > Andrew Crystall wrote: >> People carry spare batteries for electrical equipment, including >> mobiles, all the time. I keep a spare, charged mobile battery in my >> backpack. >> > I'm curious what battery life you get from your phone. I bought mine > because it was so tiny, and it connects via bluetooth to the car for > several hours in a typical day, and I still only charge it every few > days. I would only talk on it for a up to an hour a day, but I've > never > come close to running out of battery. My son's phone (which only has a > few minutes a day talk and no bluetooth) can go for weeks without > charging - I just can't imagine the scanario where I would need to > carry > a spare battery... > My phone has *at least* four hours talk time / 100 standby on a charge and in practice I charge it about once a month or so. Basic Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "It was the pseudo-religious transfiguration of politics that largely ensured [Hitler's] success, notably in Protestant areas." - Fritz Stern, professor emeritus of history at Columbia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mac cult attacks
On 16 Oct 2007, at 21:25, Andrew Crystall wrote: > On 16 Oct 2007 at 21:09, William T Goodall wrote: > >> On 16 Oct 2007, at 20:43, Andrew Crystall wrote: >> >> >>> Most mobile phone companies take the battery back now, and indeed >>> give you a steep discount on a new one if you hand them the old one >>> >> >> Cite. >> > > Quite apart from reading your carrier's returns policy (assuming you > don't have the non-returnable battery in the iPhone of course...), I have a pay as you go O2 and there is nothing on their site about giving me a discount on batteries that I can see. If it is there it is so well hidden that it might as well not be there as far as my decision making goes. And they appear to want to take my whole phone for recycling. > there are dedicated services like http://www.fonebak.com/ They take whole phones, not batteries, and there's nothing at all on that site about discounts or refunds. > >> >>> Having an internal >>> battery glued in means you can't carry a spare (making it unsuitable >>> for still further usage), and drastically increases the price of the >>> battery to the consumer. >>> >> >> I have never heard of anyone carrying a spare battery for their phone >> ever. If there are such people they are so few that catering to their >> needs would be ridiculous for any sensible manufacturer. > > ...? > > People carry spare batteries for electrical equipment, including > mobiles, all the time. I keep a spare, charged mobile battery in my > backpack. That makes you the first person I've ever heard of in my life who claims to do that. I did grant there were a few of you. > >> >>> >>> It's precisely the same thing as Music DRM - it's assumed the >>> customer cannot make choices about what he wants, >>> >> >> DRM isn't about choice. > > And neither is the iPhone. It's the best choice :-) -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Aerospace is plumbing with the volume turned up." - John Carmack ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Mac cult attacks
On 16 Oct 2007, at 20:43, Andrew Crystall wrote: > Most mobile phone companies take the battery back now, and indeed > give you a steep discount on a new one if you hand them the old one > Cite. > Having an internal > battery glued in means you can't carry a spare (making it unsuitable > for still further usage), and drastically increases the price of the > battery to the consumer. > I have never heard of anyone carrying a spare battery for their phone ever. If there are such people they are so few that catering to their needs would be ridiculous for any sensible manufacturer. > > It's precisely the same thing as Music DRM - it's assumed the > customer cannot make choices about what he wants, > DRM isn't about choice. Evidently Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a 'mouse.' There is no evidence that people want to use these things." -John C. Dvorak, SF Examiner, Feb. 1984. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Evil cult attacks
On 16 Oct 2007, at 03:12, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > > So as I asked is all of your stuff (phone numbers, music, pictures, > etc.) stored in non-volatile storage or when you get it back with the > new battery is it as empty of all that stuff as it was the day you > bought it? And if it is stored "permanently" what is to stop Apple > or the third party from copying all your data while they have your > iPhone and selling it to spammers or giving it to the D*partm*nt of > H*m*land S*cur*ty? Like all iPods (and the iPhone is an iPod) data is synced with iTunes on a computer. http://www.apple.com/support/iphone/service/battery/ "Will the data on my iPhone be preserved? No, the repair process will clear all data from your iPhone. It is important to sync your iPhone with iTunes to back up your contacts, photos, email account settings, text messages, and more. Apple is not responsible for the loss of information while servicing your iPhone and does not offer any data transfer service. Please do not send any accessories with your iPhone. " http://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/ "Apple takes your privacy very seriously. Apple does not sell or rent your contact information to other marketers." Informative Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Due to a typographical error the entire arctic deployment had been issued Turkish pastries as headwear. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Evil cult attacks
On 16 Oct 2007, at 01:03, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > At 05:35 PM Monday 10/15/2007, Andrew Crystall wrote: > >> "The disassembling also revealed the iPhone's battery was, unusually, >> glued and soldered in to the handset" >> >> That is something you can't shrug off in the same way though. >> >> AndrewC > > > So after a few hundred charging cycles when the battery dies you have > to throw the whole iPhone away and get a new one for however many > hundred dollars it is then and re-enter everything in the new one? You send it back to Apple and they replace the battery and dispose of the old one safely for a reasonable fee. Or you can send it to one of many third party battery changing companies who may be cheaper. Making lithium batteries user replaceable is an incredibly bad idea environmentally speaking because the old one is going in the household trash 99% of the time. Like people who change their own oil and chuck the old stuff down the drain. GCU NiCd -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Evil cult attacks
Enviro-loony cult Greenpeace issued a report today on the vile chemicals to be found in the Apple iPhone. http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/news/iphone-s-hazardous-chemicals Apple declined to comment on the cultists' latest attempt to leverage Apple's brand for publicity. Faith Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SuperStorm Worm
On 7 Oct 2007, at 20:53, Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote: > Dave Land wrote: >> >> Of course, this worm depends on the idiocy of people who open >> attachments in emails from people they don't know. >> >> Those people should have their computers confiscated, the hard drives >> erased and Linux installed to be given to people who are worthy of >> them. > > I thought so some time ago. After using Linux for about 7 years, > and knowing > its vulnerabilities, I am glad that Linux is still a minority OS, > such that > evil virusmakers don't bother to attack Linux. They do attack Linux servers because pwning a server is more valuable than a desktop machine. There are enormous numbers of attacks on servers attempting to use vulnerabilities in misconfigured systems as anyone who runs a server and looks at the logfiles can attest. Here's a few bad requests from the logs of a (BSD hosted) website I run. /phpmyadmin/main.php /pma/main.php /admin/main.php /admin/phpmyadmin/main.php /mysql/main.php /horde/readme /myadmin/main.php /phpmyadmin2/main.php /admin/phpmyadmin2/main.php /phpmychat/chat/messagesl.php3 /mysqladmin/main.php /webadmin/main.php /admin/myadmin/main.php /phpmyadmin-2.6.3-rc1/main.php /admin/sqladmin/main.php /scgi-bin/awstats/awstats.pl /admin/db/main.php /admin/php-my-admin/main.php /php-my-admin/main.php /admin/mysql/main.php /websql/main.php /admin/phpmyadmin-2.6.3-pl1/main.php /admin/phpmyadmin-2.2.6/main.php /phpmyadmin-2.6.3-pl1/main.php /phpmyadmin-2.2.6/main.php -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible." - Bertrand Russell ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SuperStorm Worm
On 6 Oct 2007, at 15:51, Robert Seeberger wrote: > > > http://www.wired.com/politics/security/commentary/securitymatters/ > 2007/10/securitymatters_1004 > > http://tinyurl.com/2xevsm > > The Storm worm first appeared at the beginning of the year, hiding in > e-mail attachments with the subject line: "230 dead as storm batters > Europe." Those who opened the attachment became infected, their > computers joining an ever-growing botnet. > > Oddly enough, Storm isn't doing much, so far, except gathering > strength. Aside from continuing to infect other Windows machines and > attacking particular sites that are attacking it, Storm has only been > implicated in some pump-and-dump stock scams. There are rumors that > Storm is leased out to other criminal groups. Other than that, > nothing. > > Personally, I'm worried about what Storm's creators are planning for > Phase II. > > By: Bruce Schneier > > ** > *** > > Considering the bot-attack that recently isolated Estonia from the net > for a good while, this probably deserves some attention and a lot of > investigation into world criminal syndicates. It is not the > loner-hacker who should be considered a threat. > > xponent > > Awareness Maru > > rob > It vindicates what I've been saying all along: that Windows computers are simply too insecure to be allowed to be connected to the public networks. Right Again Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Our products just aren't engineered for security." - Brian Valentine, senior vice president in charge of Microsoft's Windows development team. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Car free London?
On 2 Oct 2007, at 22:38, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > At 09:25 AM Tuesday 10/2/2007, Charlie Bell wrote: > >> On 30/09/2007, at 8:50 PM, Gary Nunn wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Holy Cow!! >>> >>> I make a post and step away for a few weeks and find this topic ran >>> rampant >>> - and I missed it! >> >> >> Yep. I'm still wondering what bits of London are 20 mins apart by car >> and hours apart by public transport > > > > I don't know about London, but most cities I have lived in in the > U.S. are like that if the two points are both on the edge of the city > proper, as the only bus routes or other public transportation > available tends to run more or less radially from the downtown > terminal, so to get from one point on the edge of the city (e.g., > your house) to another relatively nearby on the edge of the city > (e.g., your place of employment or in some cases the nearest shopping > center), rather than going directly there which would be a 20-minute > drive you must board the bus which comes closest to your house, ride > all the way to the terminal downtown (taking the better part of an > hour), Sounds like your public transport is designed by people who want to discredit public transport. Works here Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Alabama vs. Female Orgasms
On 2 Oct 2007, at 04:41, Robert Seeberger wrote: > Will the willful obtuseness never end? Not as long as the evil shadow of religion darkens your benighted land. Thought for the day Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Every Sunday Christians congregate to drink blood in honour of their zombie master. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: iPhone spotting
On 30 Sep 2007, at 02:34, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > At 06:40 PM Saturday 9/29/2007, William T Goodall wrote: >> >> Kojak's watch Maru > > > I don't recall Telly Savalas having or using a cell phone. Just a > lollipop. Telly Savalas personally owned an early digital watch with LED display that cost several $1000 and for a season or so they wrote it into the stories where Kojak would check the *exact time* on his watch with a closeup of the red digits. Dated Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ If you listen to a UNIX shell, can you hear the C? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
iPhone spotting
We all know that on TV the good guys use Macs and the bad guys use PCs and Mac spotting has become slightly passé because they're everywhere as are iPods. But the iPhone puts new life into this exciting pastime. So; Spotted - in Journeyman the protagonist Dan Vassar (played by Kevin McKidd) has an iPhone which gets some close-ups of its own in the first episode. Spotted - in Moonlight love-interest reporter Beth Turner (played by Sophia Myles) has an iPhone which also gets some close-ups of its own in the first episode. Kojak's watch Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If so, then Microsoft would have great products." - Steve Jobs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: magic formula
On 25 Sep 2007, at 00:36, Nick Arnett wrote: > On 9/24/07, jon louis mann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> not sure waht you mean about-- >> -- a feedback-based market can't self-regulate >> goods and services that violate the law of diminishing >> returns, a/k/a network effects. > > > For most products, the more you sell, the lower the marginal value > -- that's > decreasing returns. In products subject to network effects, the > more you > sell, the more valuable each one becomes. If there's one telephone > on a > network, it is worthless. If there are two, it's worth something, > but not > much. As more people have them, each one can call more people, so > the value > of each phone goes up. It's the same with operating systems. The > more you > sell, the more valuable the operating system itself becomes, since > it's more > attractive to software developers when there are more users. > But for developers that leads to numerous competing applications in every niche which makes alternative platforms with less competition with other developers more attractive. Big fish, small pond Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Whales talk French at the bottom of the sea
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007709220333 "A community college instructor in Red Oak claims he was fired after he told his students that the biblical story of Adam and Eve should not be literally interpreted. Steve Bitterman, 60, said officials at Southwestern Community College sided with a handful of students who threatened legal action over his remarks in a western civilization class Tuesday. He said he was fired Thursday. "I'm just a little bit shocked myself that a college in good standing would back up students who insist that people who have been through college and have a master's degree, a couple actually, have to teach that there were such things as talking snakes or lose their job," Bitterman said. Sarah Smith, director of the school's Red Oak campus, declined to comment Friday on Bitterman's employment status. The school's president, Barbara Crittenden, said Bitterman taught one course at Southwest. She would not comment, however, on his claim that he was fired over the Bible reference, saying it was a personnel issue. "I can assure you that the college understands our employees' free- speech rights," she said. "There was no action taken that violated the First Amendment." Bitterman, who taught part time at Southwestern and Omaha's Metropolitan Community College, said he uses the Old Testament in his western civilization course and always teaches it from an academic standpoint. Bitterman's Tuesday course was telecast to students in Osceola over the Iowa Communications Network. A few students in the Osceola classroom, he said, thought the lesson was "denigrating their religion." "I put the Hebrew religion on the same plane as any other religion. Their god wasn't given any more credibility than any other god," Bitterman said. "I told them it was an extremely meaningful story, but you had to see it in a poetic, metaphoric or symbolic sense, that if you took it literally, that you were going to miss a whole lot of meaning there." Bitterman said he called the story of Adam and Eve a "fairy tale" in a conversation with a student after the class and was told the students had threatened to see an attorney. He declined to identify any of the students in the class. "I just thought there was such a thing as academic freedom here," he said. "From my point of view, what they're doing is essentially teaching their students very well to function in the eighth century." Hector Avalos, an atheist religion professor at Iowa State University, said Bitterman's free-speech rights were violated if he was fired simply because he took an academic approach to a Bible story. "I don't know the circumstances, but if he's teaching something about the Bible and says it is a myth, he shouldn't be fired for that because most academic scholars do believe this is a myth, the story of Adam and Eve," Avalos said. "So it'd be no different than saying the world was not created in six days in science class. "You don't fire professors for giving you a scientific answer." Bitterman said Linda Wild, vice president of academic affairs at Southwest, fired him over the telephone. Wild did not return telephone or e-mail messages Friday. Bitterman said that he can think of no other reason college officials would fire him and that Smith, the director of the campus, has previously sat in on his classes and complimented his work. "As a taxpayer, I'd like to know if a tax-supported public institution of higher learning has given veto power over what can and cannot be said in its classrooms to a fundamentalist religious group," he said. "If it has ... then the taxpaying public of Iowa has a right to know. What's next? Whales talk French at the bottom of the sea?" " -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Netiquette
On 22 Sep 2007, at 01:32, Dan Minettte wrote: > > I heard that the Stockholm Peace Institute is underwriting a remake > of Kill > Bill I & II. It will be titled "Take A Chill Pill Bill I & 2." Rough > drafts of the script have Uma Thurman working out her issues > through group > therapy, rather than with instruments of destruction. Does it keep the foot fetishism? Toes Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "if the bible proves the existence of god, then superman comics prove the existence of superman" - Usenet ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Netiquette
On 19 Sep 2007, at 18:10, Dave Land wrote: > On Sep 19, 2007, at 2:01 AM, Martin Lewis wrote: > >> On 9/18/07, Dave Land <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>>>> B) Please do not post emails received off-list to the list without >>>>>the permission of the author. >>>>> >>>> I believe this is so basic that it transcends any list rules. >>>> But I would qualify: "do not post parts of private e-mails to the >>>> public without the consent of the author of those parts". >>> >>> Evidently not. I've had two of my private messages forwarded to the >>> list this week. >> >> You have a very precious view of communication. There is no breach of >> trust if there is no trust in the first place. I don't know you, I've >> never entered into personal correspondence with you, our only >> connection is as members of a public forum. You attempted to make a >> public conversation private so that you could insult me without >> anyone >> seeing. This is like being at a dinner party and waiting till I'm in >> the corridor on the way to the toilet to get your insult in. I'd have >> no problem relaying your remarks to the table. >> >> As for the fact two of your messages were forwarded to the list, >> well, just how naive did you have to be to send that second message? > > Oh, for Krum's sake, Martin. Take a pill. > > If we are at a dinner party and I see you wiping your mouth on your > sleeve, it would be extraordinarily rude of me to announce to everyone > at the table, "Martin is wiping his mouth on his sleeve." > > If, instead, I chance to see you in the hallway and say in private, > "Wiping your mouth on your sleeve is uncouth.", then I do you a > courtesy. > > A courtesy which I now see that you do not deserve. But then again, > extending courtesy to those who do not deserve it has a long and > distinguished history, and even has a name: grace. > This is why we have netiquette. People don't agree about manners but they can agree to follow an arbitrary set of rules in mailing lists. Sweet Reason Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time." - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Languages
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/world/18cnd-language.html? ex=1347768000&en=baaeb908e38d6ba8&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss "Of the estimated 7,000 languages spoken in the world today, linguists say, nearly half are in danger of extinction and are likely to disappear in this century. In fact, they are now falling out of use at a rate of about one every two weeks." http://hopl.murdoch.edu.au/ "Welcome to HOPL, the History of Programming Languages. This site is concerned with the idea-historical treatment of the development of programming languages as a means of human expression and creation. In 1976, at the History of Computing Conference in Los Alamos, Richard Hamming described why we might be interested in the history of computing: "we would know what they thought when they did it". This site is all about why they did it - why people designed and implemented languages and what influenced them when they did so (historically, philosophically, politically as well as theoretically). This site lists 8512 languages, complete with 17837 bibliographic records featuring 11064 extracts from those references. It is in effect a family tree of languages with 5445 links, making it not only the biggest programming language family tree around, but also one of the largest idea-genealogical projects undertaken." Looks like we are inventing new languages faster than the old ones are dying off. Multilingual Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ The surprising thing about the Cargo Cult Windows PC is that it works as well as a real one. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Army of monkeys
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6996621.stm "Offer to quit in India gods row India's culture minister has offered to resign in a row over whether Hindu gods are mythological figures. Officials had presented the argument in court to support construction plans for an area devotees believe has remnants of a bridge built by the Hindu god Ram. Minister Ambika Soni said she would quit if asked to by the prime minister. She also confirmed that two directors of the Archaeological Survey of India, which prepared the court affidavit, had been suspended. Hindu devotees believe the area between India and Sri Lanka - now known as Adam's Bridge - was built millions of years ago by Lord Ram, supported by an army of monkeys. But scientists and archaeologists say Adam's Bridge, or Ram Setu, is a natural formation of sand and stones. On Wednesday the Archaeological Survey of India told the Supreme Court that the religious texts were not evidence that Lord Ram ever existed. Hardline Hindu opponents of the government accused the administration of blasphemy and protesters carried out demonstrations in the area and in Delhi, Bhopal, and on a number of key highways. The next day the report was withdrawn. Ms Soni told reporters on Saturday: "If the prime minister of India... would feel that I am culpable and wants me to resign, it won't take me a minute to do so." Ms Soni said the directors had been suspended because they had ignored a revision she had made to the affidavit. She said an inter-departmental investigation was now under way to find out who was responsible. The government wants to build a canal to link the Palk Strait with the Gulf of Mannar by dredging a canal through the shallow sea. The $560m Sethusamudram Ship Canal Project is expected to provide a continuous navigable sea route around the Indian peninsula. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/south_asia/6996621.stm " -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. - Richard Dawkins ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Weekly Chat
On 12 Sep 2007, at 21:04, jon louis mann wrote: > > we want more recruits, we would really like for you to > join us. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally > friendly... Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. > > If you want to attend, it's really easy now. > All you have to do is send your web browser to: > > http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ > > http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html > > It also gives a list of commands to use when you're > in there; it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, > which is more complicated to set up initially. > > i have tried many, many times to logon, but i am not a > techi. i have no idea what a MUD client is, or how > to navigate the commands, even if i could find them. > i thought at first it was because i have safari, but > with firefox i simply get a blank page. > anyway, i thought throwing marshmallows was a > grateful dead tradition... > clueless jon When you get to the screen that contains the text " Welcome to the brin-l chat Mush! Running on a new faster server! You will have to create your name/ password again. Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] about admin issues. - Use create to create a character. Use connect to connect to your existing character. Use 'ch ' to connect hidden, and cd to connect DARK (admin) Use QUIT to logout. Use the WHO command to find out who is online currently. - * ALL USERS MUST CREATE THEIR NAME/PASSWORD AGAIN TO LOG IN * Use create to create a character. *** This means YOU! ***" Tab into or click in the text entry area under the scrolling area and type the commands as described in the introductory message. To create an account and log in you would type create (and the return key obviously) where you replace and with the user name and password you want to use such as create KingKong ladder (and the return key obviously) On subsequent visits to the MUD you would type connect (and the return key obviously) to log in using your previously set up user name and password. Once you are logged in you can type WHO (and the return key obviously) to see who else is there. To say something either type say followed by whatever you want to say say hello (and the return key obviously) or you can abbreviate say to the " character "hello To leave tidily type QUIT (and the return key obviously) That's the basics. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Political affiliation could be all in the brain
On 10 Sep 2007, at 01:10, PAT MATHEWS wrote: > Wait a minute - I'm a liberal and I took an executive function test > a lot > like that only more complex and got a lousy 108 on it. > > And how is being more responsive to a new signal a brain DEFECT? > > Pat, needs to study to become an idiot savant. It explains the right wing faith's attempts to apply the same non- working 'solutions' to the same problems over and over (madness). The left wing faith suffers from a subtler delusion that this result doesn't address. Human Nature Maru -- -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Political affiliation could be all in the brain
My hunch that political faith is due to a brain defect similar to that which causes religious faith seems to have got evidence backing it. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn12614&feedId=online- news_rss20 "A brain scan might one day predict your voting patterns. That is the implication of a study that found different brain activity among liberals and conservatives asked to carry out a simple button-pushing test. The study implies that our political diversity may be the result of neurological differences. Researchers have long known that conservatives and liberals score differently in psychological profiling tests. Now they are beginning to gather evidence about why this might be. David Amodio of New York University, US, and his colleagues recruited 43 subjects for their test. They asked the participants to rate their political persuasion on a scale of -5 to 5, with the lowest number representing the most liberal extreme and the highest number representing the most conservative score. The participants then had to sit before a computer screen and press one of two buttons depending on whether they saw an "M" or a "W". They had half a second to make each response, so there was a great deal of pressure to react quickly. Surprising stimulus Out of the 500 trials that each subject completed, he or she was presented with the same letter 80% of the time. This meant that the participants felt compelled to press the same button repeatedly. "You keep seeing the same stimulus over and over, so when the opposite stimulus comes on it's always a surprise," says Amodio. When the less common letter did appear on the screen, the people who identified themselves as more conservative (rating themselves somewhere between 1 and 5 on the initial questionnaire) pressed the "usual" button 47% of the time instead of switching to the correct button. By comparison, the "liberals" who placed themselves between -5 and -1 on the questionnaire responded more readily to the new signal and achieved the slightly lower error rate of 37%. Brain recordings taken using electroencephalogram (EEG) technology showed that liberals had twice as much activity in a deep region called the anterior cingulate cortex. This area of the brain is thought to act as a mental brake by helping the mind recognize "no- go" situations where it must refrain from the usual course of action. Voting prediction The new findings are "interesting and provocative" because they could perhaps help enable researchers to predict a person's voting behaviour based on brain scans, says Jordan Grafman, chief of the cognitive neuroscience section at National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke in Bethesda, Maryland, US. Amodio explains that the fact that liberals achieved higher accuracy on the button-pressing task does not make them "better" than conservatives. "There might be other tasks or situations where a less sensitive or more persistent response might be more adaptive," such as when new stimuli are distracting, he says. He also speculates that differences in brain responses might contribute to differences in political views or vice versa. "Conservatives tend to say that liberals spend too much time thinking and not enough time acting," comments Matt Newman at Arizona State University in Phoenix, Arizona, US. But "it would be a leap if researchers claim that there is an underlying biological difference that leads you to a particular political orientation." He adds, however, that the new finding that conservatives stick with habit is still interesting given that previous studies have found they are more likely to resist change than their liberal counterparts (Psychological Bulletin, DOI: 10.1037/0033-2909.129.3.339). Journal reference: Nature Neuroscience (DOI: 10.1038/nn1979)" -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. - Richard Dawkins ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why so little renewable energy 30 years after the sweater speach?
On 3 Sep 2007, at 06:03, Dan Minettte wrote: > > >> -Original Message- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:brin-l- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On >> Behalf Of Ray Ludenia >> As a matter of interest, roughly what is the price of petrol (gas in >> US)? > > It varies from about $2.55 near Houston to $2.90 in the upper- > midwest to > over $3.00 in California..according to my daughter Bethbut the > California contingent would know better. My suggestion is to drive > the > price up to $8.00/gal to cut consumption. It's about $7.25/gal in the UK today. Our neighbour on the left has a five litre Cherokee and our neighbour on the right has a Range Rover and a Porsche. Two litre Merc Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft." - Jim Allchin, Windows development chief, Jan 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Larry Craig Interview With Police
On 31 Aug 2007, at 23:59, Robert Seeberger wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Ronn! Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Killer Bs Discussion" > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 10:06 PM > Subject: Re: Larry Craig Interview With Police > > >> At 09:04 PM Thursday 8/30/2007, Robert Seeberger wrote: >> >>> And what was he doing picking up paper off the restroom floor while >>> taking a crap? >> >> >> >> Hypothetically: >> >> Perhaps he had a magazine in his bag, coat pocket, etc., when he >> entered the rest room for what abdominal sensations suggested might >> be a relatively long sit, and when he took out the magazine to read >> one of those [EMAIL PROTECTED] blow-in cards fell on the floor . . . >> >> >> It's Happened To Me Maru >> > He claims it was toilet paper he was picking up. > Who picks up toilet paper in an airport restroom? Who knows where it > has been? The same could be said about the other denizens of the restroom. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Every Sunday Christians congregate to drink blood in honour of their zombie master. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
More religion
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/01/ wmalay101.xml&DCMP=EMC-new_01092007 "Ahmad Fairuz, the chief justice, told an Islamic conference in Kuala Lumpur that 50 years of independence had failed to free Malaysia from the "clutches of colonialism". Sharia law should be "infused" into the gaps created by abolishing common law, he said. Malaysia's non-Muslim Chinese and Indian communities, who form 40 per cent of the population, are alarmed at creeping Islamisation. Abdul Badawi, the prime minister, this month joined other leaders for the first time in denying what the British-authored constitution has said for 50 years - that Malaysia is a secular state. Sharia law already operates in some Malaysian states and is occasionally applied to non-Muslims, as in July when Islamic officials forcibly separated a Hindu-Muslim couple with six children after 21 years of marriage. The majority ethnic Malays are defined as Muslim by law and forbidden from converting. Racial tensions are already high due to official discrimination in favour of Malays, who enjoy better employment opportunities, preferential loans and lower house prices. Dr Mohd Hatta, of the Islamic Party, welcomed the latest proposal in principle, but said: "The chief justice should be enforcing laws, not making them." Meanwhile, dissent is increasingly harshly repressed. Journalists and bloggers say they are tailed by police and their phones are tapped." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. - Richard Dawkins ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gay marriage in the closet
On 5 Nov 2006, at 20:40, William T Goodall wrote: > So what is it with all these right-wing evangelical anti-gay- > marriage nutcases being in the closet? I see Ted 'New Life Church' > Haggard has been outed for his sordid drug and rent-boy antics. > > Is there anyone against gay marriage that isn't a self-loathing > closeted gay? Republican senator Larry Craig, with a staunch record of anti-gay and 'family values' voting, arrested with his pants down cottaging in a public toilet... Liars Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If so, then Microsoft would have great products." - Steve Jobs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Feeling a k'chu-non :-(
On 27 Aug 2007, at 17:08, Dave Land wrote: > On Aug 26, 2007, at 11:13 AM, Julia Thompson wrote: > >> On Sun, 26 Aug 2007, Nick Arnett wrote: >> >>> Oh... it's a "Young adult novel." I'm adult and read novels... but >>> having passed the half-century mark a bit over a year ago, I'm not >>> sure this is for me. >> >> A well-written young adult novel is still good, just takes less time >> to read, is all. :) > > The "Tiffany Aching" stories in the Discworld series by Terry > Pratchett are aimed at "young adults", but it is some of Pratchett's > best writing -- he obviously loves this story line and character and > puts a lot of tenderness (as well as his trademark wit) into it. Many people think RAHs young adult novels were his best work. Many SF and fantasy writers have produced their best work writing for and about teenagers and young adults. Thomas M Disch argued that SF was a branch of children's literature and the BBC (as an example) seems to agree with all SF programming traditionally relegated to the child- friendly early evening. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. - Richard Dawkins ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Noahide Laws
On 7 Aug 2007, at 02:07, Dave Land wrote: > > The Golden Rule only works when it is applied reasonably. Isn't that how we ended up with lawyers? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Noahide Laws
On 7 Aug 2007, at 01:30, Dan Minettte wrote: >> On Behalf Of Charlie Bell >> On 06/08/2007, at 6:49 AM, William T Goodall wrote: >> >>>> >>>> I bet the originators of the "Golden Rule" assumed that people all >>>> generally wanted to be treated _well_, so "as you wish" would be >>>> the equivalent of "as they wish". >>>> >>> >>> I think Charlie's point is that what constitutes being treated well >>> has a large subjective element. >> >> Precisely. >>> >>> For example if I disagree with euthanasia and you agree with it >>> should I withhold euthanasia from you in the event of your agonising >>> terminal illness because I disagree with it and I'm treating you as >>> I would wish to be treated? >> >> Extreme case, but yes. >> > > A realistic question, from my cousin's experience, is what about > agreeing to > a request to get a disabled alcoholic mother her daily bottle of > vodka when > she was not longer capable of leaving the house, due to drinking > induced > disabilities. > > This is a fairly extreme example, but it is not an isolated > example. People > with problems are often facilitated in their denial of their > problems by > co-dependant friends and relatives. There are many variations of > this, and > I can give a number if reqestedbut I don't think I need to > because it is > a fairly well known phenomenon. I don't think this is example is very helpful at clarifying the issue. The question isn't about co-dependancy or people wanting things that aren't good for them but about fundamental disagreements on what the right thing is. Euthanasia is one such example, abortion another. > > So, my best formulation of the Golden Rule is to "love your > neighbor as > yourself." I like the symmetry in this; one needs to love and respect > oneself as well as other people. Practical aspects of this are > difficult > and subject to debate, of course, but I think it is beneficial to > one to > think about this before acting. I don't see that this makes the Golden Rule work any better when there is a fundamental disagreement on the issue in question. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Most people have more than the average number of legs. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Noahide Laws
On 5 Aug 2007, at 14:31, Dave Land wrote: > On Aug 5, 2007, at 3:06 AM, Charlie Bell wrote: > >> On 02/08/2007, at 3:17 AM, Dave Land wrote: >> >>>6. Minimize the harm you do to others and yourself. Treat others >>> as you would wish to be treated. >> >> Surely much better to treat people as *they* wish to be treated? > > I bet the originators of the "Golden Rule" assumed that people all > generally wanted to be treated _well_, so "as you wish" would be > the equivalent of "as they wish". > I think Charlie's point is that what constitutes being treated well has a large subjective element. For example if I disagree with euthanasia and you agree with it should I withhold euthanasia from you in the event of your agonising terminal illness because I disagree with it and I'm treating you as I would wish to be treated? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ How long a minute is depends on which side of the bathroom door you're on. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brineller quoted in New York Times
On 3 Aug 2007, at 06:31, Warren Ockrassa wrote: > On Aug 2, 2007, at 6:53 AM, Mauro Diotallevi wrote: > >>> What a nicely backhanded compliment. >> >> ...as only Guatam can hand them out. I wasn't much involved in his >> discussions on the list, and I didn't often agree with him, but I >> really do >> miss his contributions. > > Yeah, me too, oddly enough; he drove me ape, but I did have to respect > his ideas. I thought he was often very amusing. Unintentional Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: After Midnight
On 2 Aug 2007, at 19:08, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > That era started about 11:15 last night. I came > in to eat some soup for lunch, then I have to > return to trying to dig a hole in the > drought-hardened soil in the back yard, which I > started doing as soon as it became light enough to work this morning. > > Sad news. Commiseration Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." - Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
As Steve said, "The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over six years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but the chat goes on... and we want more recruits! Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion. We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly... -(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown. The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time. There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to do is send your web browser to: http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/ ..And you can connect directly from William's new web interface! My instruction page tells you how to log on, and how to talk when you get in: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html It also gives a list of commands to use when you're in there. In addition, it tells you how to connect through a MUD client, which is more complicated to set up initially, but easier and more reliable than the web interface once you do get it set up." -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up." ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Evolution or creationism?
On 31 Jul 2007, at 07:05, Dave Land wrote: > On Jul 30, 2007, at 8:21 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > >> Poll shows belief in evolution, creationism >> >> <http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-06-07-evolution- >> debate_n.htm> >> >> "Two-thirds in the poll said creationism, the idea that God created >> humans in their present form within the past 10,000 years, is >> definitely or probably true. More than half, 53%, said evolution, the >> idea that humans evolved from less advanced life forms over millions >> of years, is definitely or probably true. All told, 25% say that both >> creationism and evolution are definitely or probably true." > > Well, that's fairly discouraging and a little bit encouraging: at > least > it shows that the absolutists, while still definitely or probably in > the majority, about half as many can definitely or probably hold two > conflicting thoughts in their heads at the same time, which is about > the best we can hope for. I think it shows that the American educational system has been nearly destroyed by the malign influence of the peddlers of superstitious nonsense. It's much easier to con people who can't think and don't know much. Rubes Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Our products just aren't engineered for security." - Brian Valentine, senior vice president in charge of Microsoft's Windows development team. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Death working overtime
On 30 Jul 2007, at 22:50, Robert Seeberger wrote: > I guess I saw my first Bergman films when I was 9 or 10 (around '67 or > '68), and even then it was easy to understand why they were classics. > The scenes of Max Von Sydow preparing himself for vengeance in The > Virgin Spring had a powerful effect on me and I was fascinated by the > scene where the knight plays chess with death in The Seventh Seal. > I've never been a big Bergman fan, but his films contained potent > images that stayed with you. And inspired the magnificent _Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey_. Keanu Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Two years from now, spam will be solved." - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 30 Jul 2007, at 23:19, Robert Seeberger wrote: > > That does not surprise me a bit. The idea that churches are segregated > by anything more than convenience is a bit off to me. I see people > going to mega-churches, mega-church wannabes, and the nearest church > of convenience by denomination is normally the top attractor. Denomination segregates by race. Hispanics for example are almost all Catholic. Many African Americans belong to such predominantly black churches as the National Baptist Convention (7,500,000 members), the AME Church (5,000,000 members) and the Church of God in Christ (6,000,000 members). The memberships of three alone amount to nearly half the African American population. Then there's the African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church and the smaller Pentecostal churches. Exorcism Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft." - Jim Allchin, Windows development chief, Jan 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 30 Jul 2007, at 14:21, Julia Thompson wrote: > > > On Mon, 30 Jul 2007, William T Goodall wrote: >> >> Blacks also go to different churches of course. > > Some choose to go to all-black or mostly-black churches, others > don't. I > could go on for a good number of sentences on the subject, but I don't > know that you'd be interested. If you care about what I know on the > subject and would like me to type for awhile, let me know. I'm guessing the the better educated and paid the black person is the whiter the church they attend. Trends Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time." - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 30 Jul 2007, at 02:41, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > At 01:02 PM Wednesday 7/18/2007, Dan Minette wrote: >> Subject: Re: U.S. health care >> >> >> >> [...] Let me give you an example from one of the clearest numbers for >> which the US performs relatively poorly: infant mortality. >> >> The US's rate, about 7/5000 live births is far above the EU rate of >> 5.6/1000. This is a horrid statistic. >> >> We find, though, that the white, non-Hispanic rate is close to the >> EU: >> 5.8/1000. The black rate, on the other hand, is very high: 13.8. >> [...] >> Further, one sees that even black women who completed college have a >> significantly worse rate than white women who haven't completed grade >> school. 10.6/1000 vs. 6.3/1000. These data indicate that >> something besides >> income is affecting the situation. Blacks also go to different churches of course. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Two years from now, spam will be solved." - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 30 Jul 2007, at 00:23, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > At 03:08 PM Sunday 7/29/2007, William T Goodall wrote: > > >> The USA is the most religious advanced country and the least healthy. >> >> [...] >> >> Very religious countries like Nigeria seem to have very poor health. > > > > Is there any other common factor between those two statistics? > The USA is anomalous because in every other advanced nation rising prosperity and rising status of women is accompanied by falling birth rates rising life expectancy and declining religious belief. Other than in the USA high levels of religious belief are mostly found in poor countries with high birth rates lower life expectancies and low status for women. It might be possible to use factor analysis or other statistical techniques to examine hypotheses about the detrimental effects of religion on national populations. There isn't a contradiction between religious belief being relatively beneficial to individuals in a population but detrimental to the population as a whole. Not my field Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." -- Ken Olson, President, Chairman and Founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 30 Jul 2007, at 00:12, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: > At 10:25 AM Sunday 7/29/2007, William T Goodall wrote: > >> You can't prove UFOs manned by yetis don't abduct you every night and >> probe you Maru > > > That explains why I wake up every morning with an overwhelming desire > to get to the bathroom and smear some Preparation-H on my butt! > > Thanks Maru! Oh no! I've started a new religion! Prophet Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If so, then Microsoft would have great products." - Steve Jobs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 20:26, Dan Minettte wrote: >> On Behalf Of William T Goodall >> Correlation doesn't mean causation Dan. In a highly religious society >> like the USA those who are not members of a religious community are >> also likely to be outsiders in other ways which is likely to impact >> their health and so on. >> >> But you knew that. > > The US is religious, but most people are not active members of > religious > communities. I can see how a small fraction of people being > outsiders could > have a different mechanism (say atheists in the US being less > healthy), but > most people are religious, but not particularly active. Even if lying to people does make them healthier/happier it's still wrong. And it's not just wrong it's corrosive and destructive in the long run. Lotus Eaters Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If so, then Microsoft would have great products." - Steve Jobs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 20:26, Dan Minettte wrote: > > If you want, you could argue that healthy people tend to be > religious and > people with social and behavior health issues tend to be agnostic and > atheists, I guessbut I think the proposed mechanisms are better > explained by the causality going in the other direction. > The USA is the most religious advanced country and the least healthy. The UK is one of the least religious advanced countries and much healthier than the USA. Very religious countries like Nigeria seem to have very poor health. Trends Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time." - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 15:31, Dan Minettte wrote: > There is no experiment that either one of us can propose to falsify > the > belief of one of us and confirm the belief of the other. So, where > does > this place discussions of religion? Is there nothing empirically > based that > can be said about them? This whole "you can't prove a negative' defence of religious belief is spurious and ridiculous. Nobody who puts forward this argument actually applies it any area of their life other than the defence of their otherwise indefensible religious belief since the consequences would be bizarre and unwelcome. You can't prove UFOs manned by yetis don't abduct you every night and probe you Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 15:31, Dan Minettte wrote: > On the whole, it appears that the literature indicates that > membership in a > religious community has a positive effect on one's health. Correlation doesn't mean causation Dan. In a highly religious society like the USA those who are not members of a religious community are also likely to be outsiders in other ways which is likely to impact their health and so on. But you knew that. > For example, > there are studies that indicate that people who are prayed for tend > to do > better in recovering from surgery/illnesses. I am not claiming a > miraculous > nature for this, since the prayer support is known to the > individual and > there are clear possibilities for very mundane explanations for this. It would be wise not to claim anything miraculous since the last experiment I saw about this didn't tell the patients that they were being prayed for and found they didn't get any better than the ones who weren't being prayed for. But you knew that. Knows there is no God too Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or Allow?" ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 14:37, PAT MATHEWS wrote: > > I am deleting, unread, all posts with this title because nobody is > saying > anything new. Everybody has their minds made up and all the force > of their > deepest values behind it. > It's those blinkered and irrational advocates of religion that have their minds made up and nothing new to say. I'm always ready to enter a rational discussion and point out where they're wrong. Reasonable Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "Two years from now, spam will be solved." - Bill Gates, 2004 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 13:55, Richard Baker wrote: > William said: > >> It has a supernatural God that makes the world, a supernatural Jesus, >> it has Jesus coming back from death, it has heaven and it has >> resurrection and blah blah blah. If you don't believe all of this >> tosh you are not a Christian. > > I think it's possible to disbelieve some aspects of it while > believing other things of a similar character and still be a > Christian. For example, the Nicene Creed was a formal rejection of > Arianism(*) - that's what the "eternally begotten of the Father... > begotten, not made" part is about - but I don't think anyone could > sensibly argue that Arians aren't Christians, and the First Council > of Nicaea certainly didn't stamp out what was afterwards the "Arian > heresy". Which cults are or are not really Christian is one of those religious questions... The Latter Day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses represent themselves as Christian but reject the Nicene Creed. Some Protestant churches claim Catholics aren't really Christians and the Pope has recently reaffirmed that the Catholic church is the One True Christian church. Zealots Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ 'The true sausage buff will sooner or later want his own meat grinder.' -- Jack Schmidling ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 13:33, Ritu wrote: > William T Goodall wrote: > >> All religions contain irrational defining beliefs (supernatural or >> otherwise) else they wouldn't be religions. Accepting some piece[s] >> of nonsense on faith is part of adopting a religious belief. > > That is a wonderful non-answer to what I said... It completely answers what you said. > >> Clearly steaming with supernatural bullshit. > > Not bullshit, please. It really *is* a wonderful story - great > political > drama, lovely dialogues, great sex, heart-stopping pathos Vyasa > acquitted himself very well indeed. > >> If you just treat it as a nice story then you are rejecting it as >> religion. > > I never accepted it as religion, for I have never accepted religion. > Stories, though, are easier to believe in as they are far less > intrusive. :) > >> Enjoying the stories of Greek mythology isn't the same as believing >> the ancient Greek religion. > > Very true. And disbelieving in religion isn't the same as believing > all > religion is evil. a) Promoting falsehoods as true is Evil. b) Religion promotes falsehoods as true. a),b) -> Therefore religion is Evil. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance" - Steve Ballmer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Religion is Valuable: Why it Must Be Encouraged
On 29 Jul 2007, at 02:45, Nick Arnett wrote: > > Many religions have creeds -- short statements of faith that one > chooses to > accept as true if one is to profess that faith. Creeds exists > specifically > to identify the key truths in one's faith. There would be no need > for them > if everybody believed everything is literally true. The Ecumenical Nicene creed of the majority of the world's Christians. "We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen." It has a supernatural God that makes the world, a supernatural Jesus, it has Jesus coming back from death, it has heaven and it has resurrection and blah blah blah. If you don't believe all of this tosh you are not a Christian. If you say you believe all of it but not that it's literally true then you are using the word 'believe' incorrectly and are deluding yourself. Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time." - Bill Gates, 1987 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
