Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 9:47 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Do you see Charles there in Montreal? Please give him our best. He's my neighbour! I see him, his wife and his adorable young daughter quite often. I will say hi from you two. I work with Barry Harris from time to time (pleasure for me), and he speaks about Monk calling an Am7b5 a Cmin6/A. I never did get why this was important to Monk or to Barry, who is usually into simplifying the way one needs to think about harmony rather than making it more complex. I'm not convinced that all theory is equally useful. Some things seem like going from NY to Philly by way of Cleveland. I agree in that I prefer functional harmonic concepts. But Monk's nomenclature is useful for a couple of other reasons (for students, among others) in that it allows you to see instantly how to use a tonic minor lick on a pre-dominant area chord. I do an exercise with my students where I ask them to come up with a melodic minor lick (no chromatics) and I use the Cry Me A River lick (9,8,5,3,2,1 for the non-jazzers) as an example. Then we play it in Fm for a Dm7(b5) chord, in Abm for a G7 altered chord, and in Cm for the tonic Cm6 chord. It is just to show how the same lick can be recycled with a new "feel" and musical meaning over a different chord, thus saving practice time and increasing understanding. Understand, I don't live my life this way! But it is useful for showing how everything fits together more than it might seem at first. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
I quoted from the post whomever wrote it. Yes, for those that have some harmony knowledge it is better to write the chord as it functions in the progression. A lot of folks that open the real book "don't get that" if they did I wouldn't have had so many students over the years. To those folk the vertical aligment makes more sense...whether it be right or wrong. I will sometimes specify a poly chord voicing or slash voicing rather than write out the chord in it's function because I need that specific voicing (yes understaning that inversions may be used) the basic sound that I need for a singer or ? to hear. In my world I often deal with folks that can get confused if something is to loaded or they don't hear consistancy in the chord. It isn't ideal but it works a minimum amount of rehearsal. Later Terry ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
Terry, I think you misunderstood what I meant. From my perspective, spelling a chord by its function leads to more complete understanding. If one has been trained in diatonic harmony, a m7b5 chord explains its function clearly. It is either a ii chord or a vii chord, and one can know what to do with it. A m6 chord with the 6th in the bass is not a helpful spelling to anyone who wants to understand harmony as it functions in a musical phrase - as it takes place in time (unless it is a tonic chord with a moving bass line, or the A is a pedal tone). If all you are interested in is a vertical alignment of pitches, then whatever spelling reminds you of the relevant pitches is OK, but that is a woefully incomplete way to understand music. What I was saying is that I don't agree with Monk or Barry in this particular issue. I find it an obtuse way of attempting to understand something relatively simple. Chuck On Oct 4, 2009, at 9:53 AM, terry cano wrote: I think you are right on the money. You can find a lot more folks that play (not just Jazz folk but Rock guys, etc.) that can play a C min6/A but have to stop and think about Ami7(b5) I see this all the time with by new students. It also details the chord u write Ami7(b5) I'm gonna starting thinking h nat 11, tri tone Eb7(#11) and you probably would toCmin6/A is more specific and less likely to be changed by some folk. When I write charts I always thake that into consideration in the changes. It may not be neccessary and of course this is my opinon and subjective. Terry I work with Barry Harris from time to time (pleasure for me), and he speaks about Monk calling an Am7b5 a Cmin6/A. I never did get why this was important to Monk or to Barry, who is usually into simplifying the way one needs to think about harmony rather than making it more complex. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
I think you are right on the money. You can find a lot more folks that play (not just Jazz folk but Rock guys, etc.) that can play a C min6/A but have to stop and think about Ami7(b5) I see this all the time with by new students. It also details the chord u write Ami7(b5) I'm gonna starting thinking h nat 11, tri tone Eb7(#11) and you probably would toCmin6/A is more specific and less likely to be changed by some folk. When I write charts I always thake that into consideration in the changes. It may not be neccessary and of course this is my opinon and subjective. Terry > I work with Barry Harris from time to time (pleasure for > me), and he speaks about Monk calling an Am7b5 a > Cmin6/A. I never did get why this was important to > Monk or to Barry, who is usually into simplifying the way > one needs to think about harmony rather than making it more > complex. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On Oct 3, 2009, at 4:04 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: I remember having this pointed out to me by Charles Ellison (I'm pretty sure you know him!) in my first improv class in university. Do you see Charles there in Montreal? Please give him our best. He was trying to show us some different ways of handling "wrong" notes, and I (with the arrogance that only an eighteen year old could possibly possess!) challenged him, in front of the class, to make a major third sound "right" on a minor chord. He did on his trumpet, without hesitation. I then said, "Oh yeah, but can you start on beat 1 and hold it, and make it sound good?" (I told you I was arrogant!) and he did, in several different ways, all brilliant. We stood there with our mouths open, then my pal beside me nudged me. "Got it?" he asked with a grin. Takes more to hold a major third on a minor chord - that's the tough one! But even that can be made to work (much harder though). Miles plays A naturals in the background riff in Walkin' - right through the Bb7 in meas. 5-6 of the form (I know, it's the 7th, not the 3rd, but it's functioning the same way as if it were the 3rd of Fmin/Bb). Startled me at first, but it functions as a pedal note, and I hardly notice it now. As Hiro says, the groove is more important. I work with Barry Harris from time to time (pleasure for me), and he speaks about Monk calling an Am7b5 a Cmin6/A. I never did get why this was important to Monk or to Barry, who is usually into simplifying the way one needs to think about harmony rather than making it more complex. I'm not convinced that all theory is equally useful. Some things seem like going from NY to Philly by way of Cleveland. Chuck I did. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 7:45 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: The Satin Doll E-7 / A7 is not Related II minor / V7 of II. If they were, they needs to be Locrean and Mixo b13. Instead, they are parallel lift of D-7 / G7, meaning whatever D-7 / G7 got has to be applied to E-7 / A7. The answer is Dorian / Mixo. My point is not on improvisation but comping rather. The chord scale theory determines voicing, yes? Improviser expect correct tensions voiced by the comping. Say you are on a function gig. The swing jazz type of gig. The pianist thinks "I have choices". S/he voices that E-7 with b9 as if it were a Spanish song but you are grooving on one note, natural 9th, like Coltrane would do. Well, I would say first that the pianist has to listen a bit better, not necessarily that she made a bad choice. I understand your point about "first choice" scales (I agree! Really!) but it doesn't end there. Or you are comping for someone. Without doubt, you are voicing the 9th but your bass player is waling on Phrygian. Are you saying you don't mind this? I would. Well, actually in that case, I would NOT have a problem with it at all. Bass lines are in a different "place" than comping and front line are. Bass players often use, say, melodic minor on a dominant walking up to a minor root when everyone else is playing an altered dominant. This kind of bass players' "musica ficta" is common and well-documented. Depending on how the player did it, from a point of sensitivity and informed musicality, I would be perfectly at ease with some forms of "mismatching" with the bass. But on the subject of matching and mismatching comping chords with front line: Charlie Parker was well-known for asking pianists (well, Bud Powell anyway) to play the unaltered dominant while he played a minor third higher than the actual chord (Bb7 mixo over an unaltered G7). Bud was one who cottoned on pretty quick and had started going with Bird on the substitute, but Bird insisted he liked how it sounded when he played the Bb7 over the G7. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On 2009/10/03, at 19:04, Christopher Smith wrote: I think you are absolutely right, that there are a lot of choices available, all of which can sound great when executed musically. But I still maintain that chord scale theory gives us E phrygian, E aeolian, E dorian, E phygian maj7 (same as D melodic minor) and E locrian maj7 (same as D harmonic minor), just for starters. All of those can sound excellent at that spot in the tune, and all are supported by chord scale theory. Assuming of course, that we have the same definition of chord scale theory, as I mentioned. I hate to sound like a broken record, but I feel my point has not be heard. Of course there are many choices for improviser. After all that's what the 1/3 of jazz is about (groove goes to the rest of 2/3), but the point is one have to know what is most correct answer before trying to be creative. The Satin Doll E-7 / A7 is not Related II minor / V7 of II. If they were, they needs to be Locrean and Mixo b13. Instead, they are parallel lift of D-7 / G7, meaning whatever D-7 / G7 got has to be applied to E-7 / A7. The answer is Dorian / Mixo. My point is not on improvisation but comping rather. The chord scale theory determines voicing, yes? Improviser expect correct tensions voiced by the comping. Say you are on a function gig. The swing jazz type of gig. The pianist thinks "I have choices". S/he voices that E-7 with b9 as if it were a Spanish song but you are grooving on one note, natural 9th, like Coltrane would do. Or you are comping for someone. Without doubt, you are voicing the 9th but your bass player is waling on Phrygian. Are you saying you don't mind this? I would. My problem with the current state of jazz theory is that everyone tells too many different things, while there is only one best answer. Improvisation is not freedom without rules. You can't brake rules if you don't know it (or should I say 'enforce it' :-). -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Greater Boston http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 12:42 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Sorry, on your original example again, it depends on context. E phrygian on Em7 might seem obvious in the key of C, but what about bar 3 of Satin Doll? E Dorian is a perfectly playable scale there, Because you are temporarily in D, no? - or at least pointing strongly in the direction of D. Well, strictly speaking (according to chord scale theory!) we are pointing in the direction of D MINOR in the key of C, so the F sharp would be an altered note. But that is perfectly fine with me! Nevertheless, I can hear F naturals in descending bass lines there too. To remove all ambiguity from music is to impoverish the language. Sensitivity to the choice of non-chord tones can control subtleties, but I have found situations in which those choices are less important to the overall effect of the musical gesture than I think they are, when I am composing more slowly than the tempo at which the music will be heard. I am not proposing ignorance of this issue, just putting in its place. Chuck I think you are absolutely right, that there are a lot of choices available, all of which can sound great when executed musically. I remember having this pointed out to me by Charles Ellison (I'm pretty sure you know him!) in my first improv class in university. He was trying to show us some different ways of handling "wrong" notes, and I (with the arrogance that only an eighteen year old could possibly possess!) challenged him, in front of the class, to make a major third sound "right" on a minor chord. He did on his trumpet, without hesitation. I then said, "Oh yeah, but can you start on beat 1 and hold it, and make it sound good?" (I told you I was arrogant!) and he did, in several different ways, all brilliant. We stood there with our mouths open, then my pal beside me nudged me. "Got it?" he asked with a grin. I did. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 1:57 PM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote: At 11:19 -0400 03/10/09, Christopher Smith wrote: On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 10:34 AM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote: At 9:51 -0400 03/10/09, Christopher Smith wrote: On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 9:03 AM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote: I also do not use the chord scale theory as a basis for improvisation nor in my playing neither in my teaching, simply because I think good melodies are made of chord tones plus non- harmonic tones, and those can be either diatonic or cromatic ones. Not all notes of a melody need to be from the "chord scale". Also, there is no time in improvisation, specialy when chords change fast, to play a full scale for each chord; and picking up scale tones at random won't work either in building a good melody. If you say that good melody notes can be diatonic or chromatic ones, then you use chord scale theory. Chord scale theory only tells us which notes are more likely to be considered as "diatonic" rather than "chromatic" and gives us an easy way to practice them. After a while, we just know them and don't worry about it much any more. Christopher Unless I'm mistaken, chord scale theory says if you are in Cmaj you use C major scale for CMaj7, dorian mode for Dm7 phrygian for Em7, lydian for FMaj7, etc. What I say that all diatonic non- harmonic tones for all those chords come from the C major scale. You build your improvisation with chord tones from those chords plus passing tones, neighbooring tones, scale runs, whatever... from the C major sale only, or cromatic notes. To say that the phrygian mode gives me the diatonic notes for the Em7 chord in Cmajor is redundant, don't you think? Harold I don't know about "redundant", but it gets a lot more useful when talking about the kinds of chords we were discussing. What scale is considered to be "diatonic" on an Fm chord in the key of C major? F melodic minor is a good one, but there are cases to be made for F dorian, C harmonic minor (starting from F, of course, if we are talking about chord scales) and that weird scale I don't know the name for, like an F lydian but with A flat. On Bb7 in Cmajor it is a split between using a passing E or passing Eb, and chord scale theory helps up with these less- obvious choices (it depends on context.) We were particularly talking about m7(b5) chords, which on a II chord in minor work nicely with locrian, but as a VI chord in minor or as a II chord in MAJOR might be better with locrian maj2. Christopher Sorry, on your original example again, it depends on context. E phrygian on Em7 might seem obvious in the key of C, but what about bar 3 of Satin Doll? E Dorian is a perfectly playable scale there, on that chord, and we aren't even into Freddie Hubbard territory yet. I still think there is a lot of chord scale theory that can help us. ___ Fm in C major: Diatonic notes are from C minor scale from which it is borrowed, except if it has a maj7, as in FmMaj7, but then it is obvious you need to substitute E for Eb, making it an F melodic minor, up and down. If there is no mention of 7th in the symbol, you may use either scale in improvisation, since you can imply wathever 7th you want added to the chord, because there is no other melody going on. Em7 in Satin Doll You might have a point there. But you still can use F natural in the second Em7, as it goes to Dm7 via its secondary dominant. Also, one usually adds a 9th to the Em7 chord and a 13th to the A7, and that puts you momentarily in the D major region (IIm7-V7 of D), and thus your E dorian scale. My question: how does one know, from the chord scale theory, that the scale to use in the Em7 chord of Satin Doll is the dorian? How does the theory tell you that, except by showing you that for the moment you are in the D major territoty? I wouldn't say that chord scale theory says anything about THE scale to use anywhere; it's about choice and what those choices imply. If you interpret the 3rd and 4th bars of Satin Doll as being temporarily in D major, then that and chord scale theory give you E dorian. See below for more discussion. My point is, if you know what tonal region you are, you can easily figure out what notes are diatonic, and don't need chord scale theory. Harold Honestly, I am starting to wonder if you have a different definition of chord scale theory than I do. I don't think of chord scale theory as saying "THIS scale, and ONLY this scale is the right one" but rather giving some choices and nomenclature, so you can group solutions that occur in similar situations. There is an aspect of chord scale theory (at least the way I teach it) that talks about "first choice" scales, those being the ones closest to the key, but NOT by any means the most musical or desirable! It's meant to be
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On 2009/10/03, at 10:05, Christopher Smith wrote: I don't think Monk did. His changes were not that detailed. Honestly, my changes in my own music are not that detailed, either. I write more detail in the rare circumstances where I really need something in particular, but usually I write as little detail as I can get away with. But we aren't talking about MY music, are we? We are talking about interpreting an existing set of pitches in a tune written by someone else. I didn't know we were talking about Monk. I only saw a thread saying C-/A is the same as A-7(b5), and I said that's not true. Monk is too special. 'Round Midnight, he wrote a song in Eb minor with Eb Major key signature. He was tired of other musicians sitting in his gigs, and he started to write confusing lead sheets to screw them up, and discourage them to sit in. Y'know, the theoretical correctness is only a tool. You can be creative only when you mastered what it is supposed to be. I learned this from Picasso. In general, I don't like "Open To Interpretation". On the other hand, I do have a few "Open To Interpretation" pieces for small groups, where all the dominant chord has no tension written. This is a composer's choice, not the comping player's. Here is the summary of my point: * I don't want chord instrument players to put tensions as they feel like it. Note that creative rehamonization is a totally different subject here. * I have no problem improviser choosing notes as they feel as long as they sound great. Note that there aren't many improvisors who can hit avoid note and still sounding great. Look, Coltrane hits avoid not on purpose to be creative, and he knows that is the avoid note! He can do it since he grooves on that avoid note. * I hate improvisor ask me what scale to be used for the chord I wrote, except when I wrote ambiguously on purpose. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Greater Boston http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
At 11:19 -0400 03/10/09, Christopher Smith wrote: >On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 10:34 AM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote: > >>At 9:51 -0400 03/10/09, Christopher Smith wrote: >>>On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 9:03 AM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote: >>> I also do not use the chord scale theory as a basis for improvisation nor in my playing neither in my teaching, simply because I think good melodies are made of chord tones plus non-harmonic tones, and those can be either diatonic or cromatic ones. Not all notes of a melody need to be from the "chord scale". Also, there is no time in improvisation, specialy when chords change fast, to play a full scale for each chord; and picking up scale tones at random won't work either in building a good melody. >>> >>> >>>If you say that good melody notes can be diatonic or chromatic ones, then >>>you use chord scale theory. Chord scale theory only tells us which notes are >>>more likely to be considered as "diatonic" rather than "chromatic" and gives >>>us an easy way to practice them. After a while, we just know them and don't >>>worry about it much any more. >>> >>>Christopher >> >>Unless I'm mistaken, chord scale theory says if you are in Cmaj you use C >>major scale for CMaj7, dorian mode for Dm7 phrygian for Em7, lydian for >>FMaj7, etc. What I say that all diatonic non-harmonic tones for all those >>chords come from the C major scale. You build your improvisation with chord >>tones from those chords plus passing tones, neighbooring tones, scale runs, >>whatever... from the C major sale only, or cromatic notes. To say that the >>phrygian mode gives me the diatonic notes for the Em7 chord in Cmajor is >>redundant, don't you think? >> >>Harold > >I don't know about "redundant", but it gets a lot more useful when talking >about the kinds of chords we were discussing. What scale is considered to be >"diatonic" on an Fm chord in the key of C major? F melodic minor is a good >one, but there are cases to be made for F dorian, C harmonic minor (starting >from F, of course, if we are talking about chord scales) and that weird scale >I don't know the name for, like an F lydian but with A flat. > >On Bb7 in Cmajor it is a split between using a passing E or passing Eb, and >chord scale theory helps up with these less-obvious choices (it depends on >context.) > >We were particularly talking about m7(b5) chords, which on a II chord in minor >work nicely with locrian, but as a VI chord in minor or as a II chord in MAJOR >might be better with locrian maj2. > >Christopher > >Sorry, on your original example again, it depends on context. E phrygian on >Em7 might seem obvious in the key of C, but what about bar 3 of Satin Doll? E >Dorian is a perfectly playable scale there, on that chord, and we aren't even >into Freddie Hubbard territory yet. I still think there is a lot of chord >scale theory that can help us. >___ Fm in C major: Diatonic notes are from C minor scale from which it is borrowed, except if it has a maj7, as in FmMaj7, but then it is obvious you need to substitute E for Eb, making it an F melodic minor, up and down. If there is no mention of 7th in the symbol, you may use either scale in improvisation, since you can imply wathever 7th you want added to the chord, because there is no other melody going on. Em7 in Satin Doll You might have a point there. But you still can use F natural in the second Em7, as it goes to Dm7 via its secondary dominant. Also, one usually adds a 9th to the Em7 chord and a 13th to the A7, and that puts you momentarily in the D major region (IIm7-V7 of D), and thus your E dorian scale. My question: how does one know, from the chord scale theory, that the scale to use in the Em7 chord of Satin Doll is the dorian? How does the theory tell you that, except by showing you that for the moment you are in the D major territoty? My point is, if you know what tonal region you are, you can easily figure out what notes are diatonic, and don't need chord scale theory. Harold ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
Sorry, on your original example again, it depends on context. E phrygian on Em7 might seem obvious in the key of C, but what about bar 3 of Satin Doll? E Dorian is a perfectly playable scale there, Because you are temporarily in D, no? - or at least pointing strongly in the direction of D. Nevertheless, I can hear F naturals in descending bass lines there too. To remove all ambiguity from music is to impoverish the language. Sensitivity to the choice of non-chord tones can control subtleties, but I have found situations in which those choices are less important to the overall effect of the musical gesture than I think they are, when I am composing more slowly than the tempo at which the music will be heard. I am not proposing ignorance of this issue, just putting in its place. Chuck on that chord, and we aren't even into Freddie Hubbard territory yet. I still think there is a lot of chord scale theory that can help us. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 10:34 AM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote: At 9:51 -0400 03/10/09, Christopher Smith wrote: On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 9:03 AM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote: I also do not use the chord scale theory as a basis for improvisation nor in my playing neither in my teaching, simply because I think good melodies are made of chord tones plus non- harmonic tones, and those can be either diatonic or cromatic ones. Not all notes of a melody need to be from the "chord scale". Also, there is no time in improvisation, specialy when chords change fast, to play a full scale for each chord; and picking up scale tones at random won't work either in building a good melody. If you say that good melody notes can be diatonic or chromatic ones, then you use chord scale theory. Chord scale theory only tells us which notes are more likely to be considered as "diatonic" rather than "chromatic" and gives us an easy way to practice them. After a while, we just know them and don't worry about it much any more. Christopher Unless I'm mistaken, chord scale theory says if you are in Cmaj you use C major scale for CMaj7, dorian mode for Dm7 phrygian for Em7, lydian for FMaj7, etc. What I say that all diatonic non-harmonic tones for all those chords come from the C major scale. You build your improvisation with chord tones from those chords plus passing tones, neighbooring tones, scale runs, whatever... from the C major sale only, or cromatic notes. To say that the phrygian mode gives me the diatonic notes for the Em7 chord in Cmajor is redundant, don't you think? Harold I don't know about "redundant", but it gets a lot more useful when talking about the kinds of chords we were discussing. What scale is considered to be "diatonic" on an Fm chord in the key of C major? F melodic minor is a good one, but there are cases to be made for F dorian, C harmonic minor (starting from F, of course, if we are talking about chord scales) and that weird scale I don't know the name for, like an F lydian but with A flat. On Bb7 in Cmajor it is a split between using a passing E or passing Eb, and chord scale theory helps up with these less-obvious choices (it depends on context.) We were particularly talking about m7(b5) chords, which on a II chord in minor work nicely with locrian, but as a VI chord in minor or as a II chord in MAJOR might be better with locrian maj2. Christopher Sorry, on your original example again, it depends on context. E phrygian on Em7 might seem obvious in the key of C, but what about bar 3 of Satin Doll? E Dorian is a perfectly playable scale there, on that chord, and we aren't even into Freddie Hubbard territory yet. I still think there is a lot of chord scale theory that can help us. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
At 9:51 -0400 03/10/09, Christopher Smith wrote: >On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 9:03 AM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote: > >> I also do not use the chord scale theory as a basis for improvisation nor in >> my playing neither in my teaching, simply because I think good melodies are >> made of chord tones plus non-harmonic tones, and those can be either >> diatonic or cromatic ones. Not all notes of a melody need to be from the >> "chord scale". Also, there is no time in improvisation, specialy when chords >> change fast, to play a full scale for each chord; and picking up scale tones >> at random won't work either in building a good melody. > > >If you say that good melody notes can be diatonic or chromatic ones, then you >use chord scale theory. Chord scale theory only tells us which notes are more >likely to be considered as "diatonic" rather than "chromatic" and gives us an >easy way to practice them. After a while, we just know them and don't worry >about it much any more. > >Christopher Unless I'm mistaken, chord scale theory says if you are in Cmaj you use C major scale for CMaj7, dorian mode for Dm7 phrygian for Em7, lydian for FMaj7, etc. What I say that all diatonic non-harmonic tones for all those chords come from the C major scale. You build your improvisation with chord tones from those chords plus passing tones, neighbooring tones, scale runs, whatever... from the C major sale only, or cromatic notes. To say that the phrygian mode gives me the diatonic notes for the Em7 chord in Cmajor is redundant, don't you think? Harold ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 8:45 AM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: On 2009/10/03, at 8:29, Christopher Smith wrote: I have to respectfully disagree with you here, Hiro, on both points. First of all, the PITCH CONTENT of both chords is the same. Therefore, they are the same, and any other interpretive points (like what scale to play or what extensions to add to the voicing) occur in the ear of the player, not prescriptively in the chord symbol. Secondly, there is nothing inherent in the Am7(b5) chord symbol that dictates locrian, as there is no mention of the second degree at all. Depending on the context, the locrian maj2 scale might be a better choice (and I'm not even going into other choices!) Granted, it usually shows up as a II chord in Gminor, where probably locrian might be the first choice. But what about a VI chord following a Im(maj7) in Cm, or an altered II chord in G major? Both those situations might like locrian maj2 better than locrian. But I accept the concept that a musician from the 40s might be more likely to choose the Bnat if he sees Cm/A rather than Am7 (b5), which wasn't common in those circles at the time. Today, with a schooled jazz musician, it would be another matter. That, I believe, was the original point of the question. Oh C'mon! If you want natural 9th - as the composer of the piece - you would had wrote A-9(b5), right? :-) I don't think Monk did. His changes were not that detailed. Honestly, my changes in my own music are not that detailed, either. I write more detail in the rare circumstances where I really need something in particular, but usually I write as little detail as I can get away with. But we aren't talking about MY music, are we? We are talking about interpreting an existing set of pitches in a tune written by someone else. I am serious. I am tired of people writing vague instructions to the improvisor. If your chord symbols are clear to suggest what the composer wants, you save rehearsal time, and your composition will sound great on sight reading. When I wrote for Mike Stern who had no chance to rehearse with us, I gave slashes only and I wrote "blow whatever you hear". No question was asked! And he sounded great! This didn't work with Dave Liebman. He wanted to know all the harmony I wrote behind his solo. I'm not often in a position where I care that much about whether someone will choose a natural 9th or a flat 9th on one of MY m7(b5) chords. However, interpreting what Monk or some other composer might have written affects my choices as an improvisor (and yes, I DO consider them to be MY choices, not Monk's, though I try to respect his harmonic systems as much as I am able to while being true to myself. I could choose to be a shallow exploiter of his legacy, or I could choose to be a true exponent of his music, as filtered through my experience.) I think this discussion is underlining a basic difference in jazz and classical analysis. In classical analysis, you only interpret what is actually there, while in jazz there is a whole lot of analysis about what ISN'T there and what might happen in the cracks. Not everything is a free choice in jazz, and I think we are differing on what parts of the harmony might be considered to be more prescribed, and which parts are more open to interpretation. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 9:03 AM, Haroldo Mauro Jr. wrote: I also do not use the chord scale theory as a basis for improvisation nor in my playing neither in my teaching, simply because I think good melodies are made of chord tones plus non- harmonic tones, and those can be either diatonic or cromatic ones. Not all notes of a melody need to be from the "chord scale". Also, there is no time in improvisation, specialy when chords change fast, to play a full scale for each chord; and picking up scale tones at random won't work either in building a good melody. If you say that good melody notes can be diatonic or chromatic ones, then you use chord scale theory. Chord scale theory only tells us which notes are more likely to be considered as "diatonic" rather than "chromatic" and gives us an easy way to practice them. After a while, we just know them and don't worry about it much any more. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
At 5:35 -0400 03/10/09, dhbailey wrote: >A-NO-NE Music wrote: >> >>On 2009/10/02, at 18:18, Robert Lingnau wrote: >> >>>To answer your question: Yes, C MI 6 with the 6th in the bass is A MI7 (b5). >> >>They are not the same. A-7(b5) dictates Locrian. C-6 forces you to avoid >>7th to voice, meaning the 7th will be b7th or natural 7th which will be a >>choice for the improviser. >> >>Again, most important thing here is that 6 chord by definition tells you not >>to voice the 7th. >> > >Knowing of course that your expertise in these matters far exceeds mine, how >exactly does any chord designation "force" anything on an improviser? And how >does A-locrian differ from C-dorian (which I would expect to be played over >Cmin(maj6)) other than in the starting note? Suggest, certainly, but force? I agree with you that there is no difference. I also do not use the chord scale theory as a basis for improvisation nor in my playing neither in my teaching, simply because I think good melodies are made of chord tones plus non-harmonic tones, and those can be either diatonic or cromatic ones. Not all notes of a melody need to be from the "chord scale". Also, there is no time in improvisation, specialy when chords change fast, to play a full scale for each chord; and picking up scale tones at random won't work either in building a good melody. >Avoiding the 7th in voicing the chord, leaving the choice of b7 or natural7 to >the improviser, how would that differ between the two chord designations? >Would someone really add a Bb or a Bnat to the A-7(b5)? I guess they could >add the 9th pretty easily, but so, too, could they add the Bb or Bnat in a >Cmin(maj6)/A designation, couldn't they, since the A would be in the bass and >thus farther away from where the Bb/Bnat would be voiced? This is what I think. Considering you have a Cm6 chord, you can choose either one of the 7ths in a melody. For instance if you play a descendig scalewise group of notes from D to A the Bb sounds good; and if you play a rising group from, say, C to Eb, the B natural will sound good also. As for the chord, you never use a b7 in a min6 chord, but you could add a Maj7th if the melody permits. For instance, if the melody is the root, you don't use the Maj7th, but if the melody is the 9th, the added Maj7h would soung good as in the chord C, A, Eb, G, B (rising from C) and a D in the melody. Harold ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On 2009/10/03, at 8:29, Christopher Smith wrote: I have to respectfully disagree with you here, Hiro, on both points. First of all, the PITCH CONTENT of both chords is the same. Therefore, they are the same, and any other interpretive points (like what scale to play or what extensions to add to the voicing) occur in the ear of the player, not prescriptively in the chord symbol. Secondly, there is nothing inherent in the Am7(b5) chord symbol that dictates locrian, as there is no mention of the second degree at all. Depending on the context, the locrian maj2 scale might be a better choice (and I'm not even going into other choices!) Granted, it usually shows up as a II chord in Gminor, where probably locrian might be the first choice. But what about a VI chord following a Im(maj7) in Cm, or an altered II chord in G major? Both those situations might like locrian maj2 better than locrian. But I accept the concept that a musician from the 40s might be more likely to choose the Bnat if he sees Cm/A rather than Am7(b5), which wasn't common in those circles at the time. Today, with a schooled jazz musician, it would be another matter. That, I believe, was the original point of the question. Oh C'mon! If you want natural 9th - as the composer of the piece - you would had wrote A-9(b5), right? :-) I am serious. I am tired of people writing vague instructions to the improvisor. If your chord symbols are clear to suggest what the composer wants, you save rehearsal time, and your composition will sound great on sight reading. When I wrote for Mike Stern who had no chance to rehearse with us, I gave slashes only and I wrote "blow whatever you hear". No question was asked! And he sounded great! This didn't work with Dave Liebman. He wanted to know all the harmony I wrote behind his solo. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Greater Boston http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On Sat Oct 3, at SaturdayOct 3 2:47 AM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: On 2009/10/02, at 18:18, Robert Lingnau wrote: To answer your question: Yes, C MI 6 with the 6th in the bass is A MI7 (b5). They are not the same. A-7(b5) dictates Locrian. C-6 forces you to avoid 7th to voice, meaning the 7th will be b7th or natural 7th which will be a choice for the improviser. Again, most important thing here is that 6 chord by definition tells you not to voice the 7th. I have to respectfully disagree with you here, Hiro, on both points. First of all, the PITCH CONTENT of both chords is the same. Therefore, they are the same, and any other interpretive points (like what scale to play or what extensions to add to the voicing) occur in the ear of the player, not prescriptively in the chord symbol. Secondly, there is nothing inherent in the Am7(b5) chord symbol that dictates locrian, as there is no mention of the second degree at all. Depending on the context, the locrian maj2 scale might be a better choice (and I'm not even going into other choices!) Granted, it usually shows up as a II chord in Gminor, where probably locrian might be the first choice. But what about a VI chord following a Im(maj7) in Cm, or an altered II chord in G major? Both those situations might like locrian maj2 better than locrian. But I accept the concept that a musician from the 40s might be more likely to choose the Bnat if he sees Cm/A rather than Am7(b5), which wasn't common in those circles at the time. Today, with a schooled jazz musician, it would be another matter. That, I believe, was the original point of the question. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On 2009/10/03, at 5:35, dhbailey wrote: Knowing of course that your expertise in these matters far exceeds mine, how exactly does any chord designation "force" anything on an improviser? And how does A-locrian differ from C-dorian (which I would expect to be played over Cmin(maj6)) other than in the starting note? Suggest, certainly, but force? No, no. I used the word "force" on voicing, not available scale to the improviser. Avoiding the 7th in voicing the chord, leaving the choice of b7 or natural7 to the improviser, how would that differ between the two chord designations? Would someone really add a Bb or a Bnat to the A-7(b5)? I guess they could add the 9th pretty easily, but so, too, could they add the Bb or Bnat in a Cmin(maj6)/A designation, couldn't they, since the A would be in the bass and thus farther away from where the Bb/Bnat would be voiced? Unless you know the music well, you won't add 9th to Locrian chord. Once in a while, I hear pianist voices 9th to a Locrian chord when I am improvising, which really hurts me! Of course Herbie Hancock can do it and no one will even question that 9th :-) It really seems to come down to how the people playing the particular song or playing in a particular school of jazz thought feel most comfortable about things rather than any hard-and-fast- nobody-would-do-that sort of rules. My opinion is different. Just as notation is psychological (F flat is not E!), so is chord symbol. I sometime write something like F Maj7/ D. Even though the derived scale may be the same with D-9, it is a psychologically different chord. On the other hand, I write polyphonic chord such as D over C when I absolutely do not want to hear B in the voicing. The Locrian chord is a Locrian chord. It has a tritone from the root. C-6/A is a tonic chord. They will give the different sense of function to the improviser. And I don't like the Locrian chord is called half diminished. The derived scale, the Locrian scale is far different from diminished scales, which is determined by the key of the moment, so is the function. So, why people call it a half diminished scale? -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Greater Boston http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
Whoah, that changes everything! First of all, particularly in jazz with 7th chords and extended chords, we need the bass note to know what the function of the chord is. Without knowing the style of the excerpt you supplied, in a jazz or "Tin Pan Alley" context missing the bass notes, I would say that progression in the key of Eb was most likely Cm7 F9 F7 (then probably going to either Fm7 or Bb7 after that) I would further surmise that the first chord is on a relatively accented part of the phrase, say beat 1 of a measure, while the other two chords come on beat 3 and 4, and so are functionally the same chord. The bass note makes all the difference. I rather suspect that Bb is not the bass note of the first chord, nor A the bass note of the second chord. This is not the "C minor chord with the 6th in the bass" that Monk had mentioned. Good thing Guy asked for a context! Christopher On Fri Oct 2, at FridayOct 2 10:26 PM, timothy price wrote: On Oct 2, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Guy Hayden wrote: You have ACEbG. Half diminished in sound but what came before it and what comes after it? Correction, Playing in the key of Eb: BbCEbG: ACEbG; ACEbF; etc. timothy price ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
A-NO-NE Music wrote: On 2009/10/02, at 18:18, Robert Lingnau wrote: To answer your question: Yes, C MI 6 with the 6th in the bass is A MI7 (b5). They are not the same. A-7(b5) dictates Locrian. C-6 forces you to avoid 7th to voice, meaning the 7th will be b7th or natural 7th which will be a choice for the improviser. Again, most important thing here is that 6 chord by definition tells you not to voice the 7th. Knowing of course that your expertise in these matters far exceeds mine, how exactly does any chord designation "force" anything on an improviser? And how does A-locrian differ from C-dorian (which I would expect to be played over Cmin(maj6)) other than in the starting note? Suggest, certainly, but force? Avoiding the 7th in voicing the chord, leaving the choice of b7 or natural7 to the improviser, how would that differ between the two chord designations? Would someone really add a Bb or a Bnat to the A-7(b5)? I guess they could add the 9th pretty easily, but so, too, could they add the Bb or Bnat in a Cmin(maj6)/A designation, couldn't they, since the A would be in the bass and thus farther away from where the Bb/Bnat would be voiced? It really seems to come down to how the people playing the particular song or playing in a particular school of jazz thought feel most comfortable about things rather than any hard-and-fast-nobody-would-do-that sort of rules. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On 2009/10/02, at 18:18, Robert Lingnau wrote: To answer your question: Yes, C MI 6 with the 6th in the bass is A MI7 (b5). They are not the same. A-7(b5) dictates Locrian. C-6 forces you to avoid 7th to voice, meaning the 7th will be b7th or natural 7th which will be a choice for the improviser. Again, most important thing here is that 6 chord by definition tells you not to voice the 7th. -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Greater Boston http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On Oct 2, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Guy Hayden wrote: You have ACEbG. Half diminished in sound but what came before it and what comes after it? Correction, Playing in the key of Eb: BbCEbG: ACEbG; ACEbF; etc. timothy price timothy.pr...@valley.net ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
On Oct 2, 2009, at 8:06 PM, Guy Hayden wrote: You have ACEbG. Half diminished in sound but what came before it and what comes after it? Playing in the key of Eb: BbCE G: ACEbG; ACEbF; etc. timothy price timothy.pr...@valley.net ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
As I mentioned earlier, what a-c-eb-g is depends on context. As a tonic, it is Cmi6--such chords are common in swing era music such as Benny Goodman...but also found in some Bill Evans ;-) A-C-Eb-G as a ii chord is half-diminished--Ami7b5. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 2, 2009, at 8:43 PM, "Guy Hayden" wrote: > Voice leading and root progression. How do you spell it and where > does it > go. It isn't a minor seventh, it is a half-diminished chord. A minor > seventh on A would be ACEG. You have ACEbG. Half diminished in > sound but > what came before it and what comes after it? > > Guy Hayden > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
Voice leading and root progression. How do you spell it and where does it go. It isn't a minor seventh, it is a half-diminished chord. A minor seventh on A would be ACEG. You have ACEbG. Half diminished in sound but what came before it and what comes after it? Guy Hayden ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
Robert nailed it, but just for extra coverage: It seems strange to us that guys with relatively sophisticated senses of harmony, like Monk, Gillespie, Parker, etc., had, would call something that is fairly obvious to us as Am7(b5) (or A half- diminished) "Cminor chord with the 6th in the bass." But on the other hand, a chord scale that works very nicely on that chord is the A locrian natural 2 scale, or a C melodic minor starting on A. So any lick that a musician might have practiced on a C tonic minor chord would work equally well on the Am7(b5) chord, and the relationship is obvious by what they called the chord. So maybe they weren't so naive after all! Christopher On Fri Oct 2, at FridayOct 2 5:05 AM, dc wrote: I've been playing figured bass for years and years, but know very little about jazz, unfortunately. Someone (in a film) says about Th. Monk: "The first time I heard a chord like a minor 6th chord, with the 6th in the bass." Wikipedia says: "The chord consists of a minor triad with an added major sixth tone; thus in C, it would contain the notes C, Eb, G, and A. This chord might be notated Cm6, Cm/M6, Cmin/Maj6, C min (Maj6), etc." My question, if the 6th is in the bass, doesn't this become a minor 7th chord? If not what is the difference? Thanks. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
At 11:05 +0200 02/10/09, dc wrote: >I've been playing figured bass for years and years, but know very little about >jazz, unfortunately. > >Someone (in a film) says about Th. Monk: > >"The first time I heard a chord like a minor 6th chord, with the 6th in the >bass." > >Wikipedia says: > >"The chord consists of a minor triad with an added major sixth tone; thus in >C, it would contain the notes C, Eb, G, and A. This chord might be notated >Cm6, Cm/M6, Cmin/Maj6, C min (Maj6), etc." > >My question, if the 6th is in the bass, doesn't this become a minor 7th chord? >If not what is the difference? > >Thanks. > >Dennis If it is a major triad with an added major 6th, yes: C6/A is the same as Am7. But you're talking about a minor 6th. Then, if it is a minor triad with an added minor 6th it becomes a major 7th chord: Cm(b6)/Ab is the same as AbMaj7. And if it the triad is major and the 6th minor, then you get an Ab augmented triad plus a major 7th, notated as AbMaj7(#5). In chord changes writing, to write a Cm(b6)/Ab is nonsense. Harold ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
In this case, the chord in question is perhaps a minor 7, b5. Printed
sheetmusic is often guilty of that mislabelling. If you see something
like Bb mi6, C7(maybe with b9), F...that's a giveaway. So that mi6 is
really a mi7b5
A minor third lower ("6th" in the bass)
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 2, 2009, at 6:01 PM, "dc" wrote:
> I've been playing figured bass for years and years, but know very
> little
> about jazz, unfortunately.
>
> Someone (in a film) says about Th. Monk:
>
> "The first time I heard a chord like a minor 6th chord, with the 6th
> in the
> bass."
>
> Wikipedia says:
>
> "The chord consists of a minor triad with an added major sixth tone;
> thus
> in C, it would contain the notes C, Eb, G, and A. This chord might be
> notated Cm6, Cm/M6, Cmin/Maj6, C min (Maj6), etc."
>
> My question, if the 6th is in the bass, doesn't this become a minor
> 7th
> chord? If not what is the difference?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: minor 6th
Hi Dennis! From the chapter "Minton's Playhouse" in "To Be or Not To Bop" (Dizzy Gillespie), copied and pasted from an internet source: "Monk doesn't actually know what I showed him. But I do know some of the things he showed me. Like, the minor-sixth chord with a sixth in the bass. I first heard Monk play that. It's demonstrated in some of my music like the melody of "Woody 'n You," the introduction to "Round Midnight," and a part of the bridge to "Mantaca." There were lots of places where I used that progression... and the first time I heard that, Monk showed it to me, and he called it a minor-sixth chord with a sixth in the bass. Nowadays, they don't call it that. They call the sixth in the bass the tonic, and the chord a C-minorseventh, flat five. What Monk called an E-Flat-minor sixth chord with a sixth in the bass, the guys nowadays call a C-minor seventh flat five... So they're exactly the same thing. An E-Flat-minor chord with a sixth in the bass is C, E-flat, G-flat, and B-flat. C-minor seventh flat five is the same thing, C, E-flat, G- flat, and B-flat. Some people call it a half diminished, sometimes." To answer your question: Yes, C MI 6 with the 6th in the bass is A MI7 (b5). Regards from Berlin, Germany Robert Am 02.10.2009 um 11:05 schrieb dc: I've been playing figured bass for years and years, but know very little about jazz, unfortunately. Someone (in a film) says about Th. Monk: "The first time I heard a chord like a minor 6th chord, with the 6th in the bass." Wikipedia says: "The chord consists of a minor triad with an added major sixth tone; thus in C, it would contain the notes C, Eb, G, and A. This chord might be notated Cm6, Cm/M6, Cmin/Maj6, C min (Maj6), etc." My question, if the 6th is in the bass, doesn't this become a minor 7th chord? If not what is the difference? Thanks. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
