Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Justin Erenkrantz wrote: On Sat, Oct 04, 2003 at 11:49:01AM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: I knew that many did not want renamings to occur, being touted as "expensive", so I still stand behind my last proposal (that has been trimmed here) which seems to me like a possible "compromise": I'll just chime in belatedly and say that if the incubated project used Subversion, renaming is *easy*. CVS sucks for this. ;-) Unfortunatley, projects should stick to what they'll use later. While we can do renaming of lists, etc, it's a pain (saying as one of the four schmucks that will get stuck doing it). I think we're willing to do it as long as it's infrequent. The biggest problem is that projects want their old aliases to work for a little while. From our perspective, that's the really annoying part. As this is a technical thing, can't scripting be used to automate it? -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Sat, Oct 04, 2003 at 11:49:01AM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: > I knew that many did not want renamings to occur, being touted as > "expensive", so I still stand behind my last proposal (that has been > trimmed here) which seems to me like a possible "compromise": I'll just chime in belatedly and say that if the incubated project used Subversion, renaming is *easy*. CVS sucks for this. While we can do renaming of lists, etc, it's a pain (saying as one of the four schmucks that will get stuck doing it). I think we're willing to do it as long as it's infrequent. The biggest problem is that projects want their old aliases to work for a little while. From our perspective, that's the really annoying part. -- justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Noel J. Bergman wrote: Whoops. There is a line in there : "Where capitalised, these terms are to be used as per the definitions found in RFC 2119 (Reference)." So I think I was thinking (which is a lot of thinking) the same thing :>. Will fix. Fix what? Looks like you already did it. I was looking at your e-mail, not the site, and the line wasn't in the extract, but has been in the full document since the third revision on Sept 28th. :-) Mea culpa. :-) The Incubator site version now also has a link to the RFC (which is what the "(Reference)" thing was there to remind me to do). Which is what I fixed! Cheers, Berin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Berin Lautenbach wrote: > Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > The draft seems to be using RFC 2119 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt) > > terminology. If so, let's please reference the RFC early in the document so > > that readers can find the operation definitions (thus establishing common > > volcabulary). > Whoops. There is a line in there : > "Where capitalised, these terms are to be used as per the definitions > found in RFC 2119 (Reference)." > So I think I was thinking (which is a lot of thinking) the same thing :>. > Will fix. Fix what? Looks like you already did it. I was looking at your e-mail, not the site, and the line wasn't in the extract, but has been in the full document since the third revision on Sept 28th. :-) Mea culpa. :-) --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Stephen McConnell wrote: Berin Lautenbach wrote: is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the . Incubation is required of all newly accepted projects until a further review indicates that the infrastructure, communications, and decision making process have stabilized in a manner consistent with other successful ASF projects. While incubation status is not necessarily a reflection of the completeness or stability of the code, it does indicate that the project has yet to be fully endorsed by the ASF. Berin: I have a problem with the last sentence in the above paragraph as it implies a association between the incubator and project code completness and/or stability. Here is a suggested replacement that eliminates the concern: is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the . Incubation is required of all newly accepted projects until a further review indicates that the infrastructure, communications, and decision making process have stabilized in a manner consistent with other successful ASF projects. As such, the project has not been formally endorsed by the ASF. I am comfortable with this. Any objections with this ammendment going in the policy draft? Cheers, Berin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On 03 Oct 2003 09:20:53 -0400 Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My simple question about who is actually on the PMC has also gone > unanswered, though it has only been three days. By the way, Jason, why don't you take a glance at "committers" module: /board/committee-info.txt ?? (However, I admit that it seems that the update of the text file would get behind the time) -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
RoUS said, > > People often lost the precious e-mails due to the current > > Here "SPAM" > > There "SPAM" > > Everywhere "SPAM", "SPAM" > oh, you mean like all the 'apache newsletter' messages i've received > on just about every single asf list i'm on? Iyaannn :-) Apparently they were not "cross-post" (because of different Message-IDs and messages themselves). Yeah, I made use of the marketing tool (I invented). I do not intent to send SPAMs, of course :-P Iyaannn... I have devoted myself to the "reduction of SPAM mails" campaign and many committers would have come happy :-) > > In the business world, "inbubation"/"incubator" is rather "ANGEL". > > Full of "nurturing", "caring" attitudes towards the "embryo". > funny, that's far from the definition of 'angel' i've inferred from > people who have gone through the process of courting venture capital. Daahhh. Really? such a venture capital will bankrupt in the near future, I guess. (WoW) Yeah, it is related to "child education" itself, too. Really difficult. "hands-off policy" vs. "interventionism" In the early stage of incubation, "interventionism" would be appreciated, and "hands-off policy" would be welcomed in its final stage. This project do not have (lacks) such a "policy" of the incubation. That's a problem. NOTE: In early stage of incubation, 'being ignored'/'ignore' would be a taboo. The same goes for the child education. Such children would become the WICKED, blackguards soon. Statistics shows. > by the way, do you have *anything* positive to say about the > incubator? :-/ Good point!? .. oh ... == TWO KENS ==. that's enough :-) Ken is the name of "law-abiding" and "healthy" (in japanese) I hope the "incubated" project would become law-abiding, nice ASF citizens and at the same time would be able to form healthy communities. ;-) Sincerely, -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Noel J. Bergman wrote: The draft seems to be using RFC 2119 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt) terminology. If so, let's please reference the RFC early in the document so that readers can find the operation definitions (thus establishing common volcabulary). Whoops. There is a line in there : "Where capitalised, these terms are to be used as per the definitions found in RFC 2119 (Reference)." So I think I was thinking (which is a lot of thinking) the same thing :>. Will fix. Cheers, Berin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Berin Lautenbach wrote: > [lots of really good stuff] The draft seems to be using RFC 2119 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt) terminology. If so, let's please reference the RFC early in the document so that readers can find the operation definitions (thus establishing common volcabulary). David noted: > > As podlings are not yet fully accepted as part of the Apache Software > > Foundation, any software releases (including code held in publically > > available CVS) made by Podlings will not be endorsed by the ASF. > > > Podlings in Incubation SHALL NOT perform any releases of software > > without the explicit approval of the Incubator PMC. > > one possible reading of these two statements is that explicit > approval of the Incubator PMC is required for any change to code held > in publicly available CVS. I doubt that is what anyone intends. Clearly not the intent. Nor are we talking about CVS snapshots. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Fwd: Fwd: Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects]
Julie, > I'm still trying to figure out how everything works around > here. Any and all constructive feedback is welcome. And we are trying to improve the incubation process, so please feel free to make constructive suggestions as to what is/isn't working, and how you feel things can be improved. Incubation should be a positive process of learning the ropes, matter of factly getting the legal processes completed, and Community building. With everyone's help, it will be. > Apologies to the Greg, and community. I was not subscribed > to the incubator mailing list so I didn't see this issue Understood. Even when people are on the right list(s), things get dropped. Hence my promoting an issue tracker as a means of using a tool to actively remind the necessary parties of outstanding issues. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
David Jencks wrote: As podlings are not yet fully accepted as part of the Apache Software Foundation, any software releases (including code held in publically available CVS) made by Podlings will not be endorsed by the ASF. Podlings in Incubation SHALL NOT perform any releases of software without the explicit approval of the Incubator PMC. To me, one possible reading of these two statements is that explicit approval of the Incubator PMC is required for any change to code held in publicly available CVS. I doubt that is what anyone intends. Actually - yes and no :>. The intent was that code can not go into the CVS until the Incubator PMC is comfortable that any legal issues have been worked through. Whether that needs explicit approval or is up to the Shepherd/Mentor to determine is where the content is confusing. Cheers, Berin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Sam Ruby wrote: Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: Sam Ruby wrote: ... It seems to me a disclaimer on the website, perhaps also in the root directory of the associated CVS trees, and a process which prevents any official "release" to be created by projects in incubation should be more than sufficient. Sorry, but this has not worked. What exactly has not worked? The disclaimers are new. No disclaimers are present in any CVS trees that I am aware of. Which is why it hasn't worked. The problem is that it's not easy to both have all sites have that disclaimer and keep it there,. The process proposal of not allowing releases from incubation is a novel one as far as I know. True. In fact for me it's not in debate. If a project's destination is unknown, certainly it belongs in incubation. If it's destination is known, then I would think that there is a value of be able to observe the community "in situo" before exiting incubation. It seems so, yes... I knew that many did not want renamings to occur, being touted as "expensive", so I still stand behind my last proposal (that has been trimmed here) which seems to me like a possible "compromise": 1 - the websites are placed in incubator.apache.org/projects/subproject 2 - these projects have as project logo the Incubator Logo 3 - They all have as a bottom line disclaimer a note that the roject is in incubation Note that point 2 and 3 have not much to do with infrastructure, and point 1 is not under direct control of this list, as the project members would still have access to the incubator-site module, as part of the project. 2 and 3 are not in debate. We could achieve 1 with a symbolic link. Then basically we agree :-) Quite frankly, I'm more concerned about cvs and mailing lists than the web site. Well, for CVS and mailing lists, we have seen that changing names is not something that has to be done lightly, for various reasons. For those we have no other reasonably means other than disclaimers, I agree. I would be willing to compromise on #1 if it were limited to the web site, however I will note that the ASF is not uniform in the mechanisms for producing web sites, so either multiple build tools will need to be accomodated, or the websites will have to be reworked when the codebase leaves incubation. Ahhh, maybe me was not clear. I just want the site to *appear* under incubator uris, not to be in incubator-site CVS. It's totally unreasonable that projects must use our site system for their work. Le me try and rephrase the proposal with the above clarifications: 1 - the projects' websites are published under incubator.apache.org/projects/project 2 - these projects have as project logo the Incubator Logo 3 - All project sites all have as a bottom line disclaimer a note that they are in incubation 4 - the CVS and mailing lists are to appear under the sponsoring PMC name (if it's a new project the sponsoring PMC is the Incubator itself) 5 - The CVS contains a discalimer file and the mailing lists have the disclaimer in the footer -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: > > People often lost the precious e-mails due to the current > Here "SPAM" > There "SPAM" > Everywhere "SPAM", "SPAM" oh, you mean like all the 'apache newsletter' messages i've received on just about every single asf list i'm on? > In the business world, "inbubation"/"incubator" is rather "ANGEL". > Full of "nurturing", "caring" attitudes towards the "embryo". funny, that's far from the definition of 'angel' i've inferred from people who have gone through the process of courting venture capital. > I suspect that the Incubator Project in the ASF is going to the > opposite choking the embrio into death without sufficient > "OXYGEN".. OH, Scared by the way, do you have *anything* positive to say about the incubator? :-/ -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!" - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
David Jencks wrote: On Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 03:20 AM, Berin Lautenbach wrote: == Releases == As podlings are not yet fully accepted as part of the Apache Software Foundation, any software releases (including code held in publically available CVS) made by Podlings will not be endorsed by the ASF. Podlings in Incubation SHALL NOT perform any releases of software without the explicit approval of the Incubator PMC. To me, one possible reading of these two statements is that explicit approval of the Incubator PMC is required for any change to code held in publicly available CVS. I doubt that is what anyone intends. What is intended and what happens are two very different things. Apache is publishing incubator code via CVS. Restrictions above and beyond that are accademic and simply unnecessary overheads on projects under incubation. I would suggest the the incubator PMC address due-diligence at the appropriate level. In this context the appropriate level is the license. (a) if a new project is importing code it should import it under an Incubator variant of ASL 1.1 with appropriate disclaimers (b) if (a) is not satisfied - then the repository is not available to the public - period - simple (c) let the project publish what it wants providing it is consitent with the license Stephen. -- Stephen J. McConnell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Saturday, October 4, 2003, at 03:20 AM, Berin Lautenbach wrote: == Releases == As podlings are not yet fully accepted as part of the Apache Software Foundation, any software releases (including code held in publically available CVS) made by Podlings will not be endorsed by the ASF. Podlings in Incubation SHALL NOT perform any releases of software without the explicit approval of the Incubator PMC. To me, one possible reading of these two statements is that explicit approval of the Incubator PMC is required for any change to code held in publicly available CVS. I doubt that is what anyone intends. david jencks - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: Sam Ruby wrote: Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:00:57 -0400 "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Judging from the move we made with james, CVS was easy. ezmlm a bit more involved, but our users seemed to find us easily enough when the list address changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Moving the web site was easy. I'd like to oppose this. (Sorry) I'd like us to all step back and take a look at the bigger picture. Apparently, the root of this is a statement that something about the incubation process of Lenya raised hackles. I suggest that there may be multiple root causes for this. Putting incubator as a part of the name is a form of disclaimer. One that is relatively expensive. I, too, would rather we explore cheaper alternatives before we decided to require this for every project. It seems to me a disclaimer on the website, perhaps also in the root directory of the associated CVS trees, and a process which prevents any official "release" to be created by projects in incubation should be more than sufficient. Sorry, but this has not worked. What exactly has not worked? The disclaimers are new. No disclaimers are present in any CVS trees that I am aware of. The process proposal of not allowing releases from incubation is a novel one as far as I know. If a project's destination is unknown, certainly it belongs in incubation. If it's destination is known, then I would think that there is a value of be able to observe the community "in situo" before exiting incubation. I knew that many did not want renamings to occur, being touted as "expensive", so I still stand behind my last proposal (that has been trimmed here) which seems to me like a possible "compromise": 1 - the websites are placed in incubator.apache.org/projects/subproject 2 - these projects have as project logo the Incubator Logo 3 - They all have as a bottom line disclaimer a note that the roject is in incubation Note that point 2 and 3 have not much to do with infrastructure, and point 1 is not under direct control of this list, as the project members would still have access to the incubator-site module, as part of the project. 2 and 3 are not in debate. We could achieve 1 with a symbolic link. Quite frankly, I'm more concerned about cvs and mailing lists than the web site. I would be willing to compromise on #1 if it were limited to the web site, however I will note that the ASF is not uniform in the mechanisms for producing web sites, so either multiple build tools will need to be accomodated, or the websites will have to be reworked when the codebase leaves incubation. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Berin Lautenbach wrote: is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the . Incubation is required of all newly accepted projects until a further review indicates that the infrastructure, communications, and decision making process have stabilized in a manner consistent with other successful ASF projects. While incubation status is not necessarily a reflection of the completeness or stability of the code, it does indicate that the project has yet to be fully endorsed by the ASF. Berin: I have a problem with the last sentence in the above paragraph as it implies a association between the incubator and project code completness and/or stability. Here is a suggested replacement that eliminates the concern: is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the . Incubation is required of all newly accepted projects until a further review indicates that the infrastructure, communications, and decision making process have stabilized in a manner consistent with other successful ASF projects. As such, the project has not been formally endorsed by the ASF. Stephen. -- Stephen J. McConnell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:49:01 +0200 Nicola Ken Barozzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sorry, but this has not worked. I guess you had a karma for jakarta-site2 and you had left 1. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. at http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html as they were for 6 months or therabouts. Tell the people that were doing that move, not me. In such a situation, I can not believe any of your words. (Sorry, but it WAS true) What don't you believe?!? >:-| Are you just trying to piss me off or will you comment on my proposal points? >:-| -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
All, FWIW - the following is the extract (at time of writing) from the draft Policy document relating to the current discussion. I am about to move this into the drafts section of the site, so people can start hacking within CVS. Cheers, Berin = Podling Constraints = == Branding == Podlings are, by definition, not yet fully accepted as part of the Apache Software Foundation. Podling web sites MUST include a clear disclaimer on their website and in all documentation stating that they are in incubation. Podlings SHOULD use the following text for all disclaimers : is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the . Incubation is required of all newly accepted projects until a further review indicates that the infrastructure, communications, and decision making process have stabilized in a manner consistent with other successful ASF projects. While incubation status is not necessarily a reflection of the completeness or stability of the code, it does indicate that the project has yet to be fully endorsed by the ASF. Podlings wishing to use a different disclaimer message MUST have the disclaimer approved by the Incubator PMC prior to use. == Releases == As podlings are not yet fully accepted as part of the Apache Software Foundation, any software releases (including code held in publically available CVS) made by Podlings will not be endorsed by the ASF. However, as software releases are an important part of any software project, they are permitted in certain circumstances, as follows. Podlings in Incubation SHALL NOT perform any releases of software without the explicit approval of the Incubator PMC. Such approval SHALL be given only after the Incubator PMC has followed the process detailed in (Reference to Charter), and SHALL NOT occur until all source has been legally transferred to the ASF. Therefore, should a Podling decide it wishes to perform a release, the Podling SHALL formally request the Incubator PMC approve such a release. The request SHALL have the endorsement of the Mentor. Should the Incubator PMC, in accordance with (Reference to Charter) vote to approve the request, the Podling MAY perform the release under the following constraints : * the release archive MUST contain the word "incubating" in the filename; and * the release archive MUST contain an Incubation disclaimer (as described in the previous section), clearly visible in the main documentation or README file. Sam Ruby wrote: Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:00:57 -0400 "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Judging from the move we made with james, CVS was easy. ezmlm a bit more involved, but our users seemed to find us easily enough when the list address changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Moving the web site was easy. I'd like to oppose this. (Sorry) I'd like us to all step back and take a look at the bigger picture. Apparently, the root of this is a statement that something about the incubation process of Lenya raised hackles. I suggest that there may be multiple root causes for this. Putting incubator as a part of the name is a form of disclaimer. One that is relatively expensive. I, too, would rather we explore cheaper alternatives before we decided to require this for every project. It seems to me a disclaimer on the website, perhaps also in the root directory of the associated CVS trees, and a process which prevents any official "release" to be created by projects in incubation should be more than sufficient. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: From my point of view, "disclaimer" page would be enough and the best "alternative". +1 -- Stephen J. McConnell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 11:49:01 +0200 Nicola Ken Barozzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sorry, but this has not worked. I guess you had a karma for jakarta-site2 and you had left 1. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3. [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. at http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html as they were for 6 months or therabouts. In such a situation, I can not believe any of your words. (Sorry, but it WAS true) The same goes for the change of the cvs repository names (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/cvsindex.html) ... for 6 months. nonfeasance :-) (Yes, I can point out and count up what had occured at xml.apache, though, . I've had enough) People, developers, tend not to update documents. Less-restrictive-alternatives (oh! ... legal-term?) would be highly appreciated, I suspect. Are there any reason for you to stick to incubator.apache.org domain, (sub)domain so much? From my point of view, "disclaimer" page would be enough and the best "alternative". Cheers, -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Sam Ruby wrote: Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:00:57 -0400 "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Judging from the move we made with james, CVS was easy. ezmlm a bit more involved, but our users seemed to find us easily enough when the list address changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Moving the web site was easy. I'd like to oppose this. (Sorry) I'd like us to all step back and take a look at the bigger picture. Apparently, the root of this is a statement that something about the incubation process of Lenya raised hackles. I suggest that there may be multiple root causes for this. Putting incubator as a part of the name is a form of disclaimer. One that is relatively expensive. I, too, would rather we explore cheaper alternatives before we decided to require this for every project. It seems to me a disclaimer on the website, perhaps also in the root directory of the associated CVS trees, and a process which prevents any official "release" to be created by projects in incubation should be more than sufficient. Sorry, but this has not worked. I knew that many did not want renamings to occur, being touted as "expensive", so I still stand behind my last proposal (that has been trimmed here) which seems to me like a possible "compromise": 1 - the websites are placed in incubator.apache.org/projects/subproject 2 - these projects have as project logo the Incubator Logo 3 - They all have as a bottom line disclaimer a note that the roject is in incubation Note that point 2 and 3 have not much to do with infrastructure, and point 1 is not under direct control of this list, as the project members would still have access to the incubator-site module, as part of the project. -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Sam Ruby wrote: Greg Stein wrote: ... Good point. My post was more aimed at the people who are shepherding the project (e.g. Sam) rather than the developers. IMO, Sam should know better, and should have fixed this long ago. Let me turn this around. You note a problem with a prior project. You posit a solution that you assert would prevent the problem in future projects. What have you done to incorporate this into the process or even bring it forward for a vote? We don't need to know what has been done, we just need to get things forward. Sam is ready to post changes to our docs, we have new members that are active and we are making th esite easier to update. Case closed. :-) -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:00:57 -0400 "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Judging from the move we made with james, CVS was easy. ezmlm a bit more involved, but our users seemed to find us easily enough when the list address changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Moving the web site was easy. I'd like to oppose this. (Sorry) I'd like us to all step back and take a look at the bigger picture. Apparently, the root of this is a statement that something about the incubation process of Lenya raised hackles. I suggest that there may be multiple root causes for this. Putting incubator as a part of the name is a form of disclaimer. One that is relatively expensive. I, too, would rather we explore cheaper alternatives before we decided to require this for every project. It seems to me a disclaimer on the website, perhaps also in the root directory of the associated CVS trees, and a process which prevents any official "release" to be created by projects in incubation should be more than sufficient. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Greg Stein wrote: But what pisses me off the most is that I raised this about wsrp4j a couple weeks ago, but it wasn't fixed. Aha, Okay. I think that the folks in wsrp4j just did not know how to do. It happens all the time. People should not blame ones' ignorance. Agreed. And I raised the point two weeks ago, noting that Apache Lenya also missed out on the disclaimer and that raised hackles. That it was best for all incubated projects to insert some text about their status within the disclaimer. But if NOTHING is done after two weeks, then it is no longer about ignorance, but about failure to let people know about the projects' actual status. A completely different matter. Nurturing, caring attitudes would be required, for catching the developers' heart. ;-) Good point. My post was more aimed at the people who are shepherding the project (e.g. Sam) rather than the developers. IMO, Sam should know better, and should have fixed this long ago. Let me turn this around. You note a problem with a prior project. You posit a solution that you assert would prevent the problem in future projects. What have you done to incorporate this into the process or even bring it forward for a vote? - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Berin Lautenbach wrote: Sam Ruby wrote: Can I ask that you document the process of updating the site? Looks like it's already there, but not very obvious. I will add to the side-bar, but in the interim : http://incubator.apache.org/updating_docs.html Thank you! That is more than sufficient for my needs. I want to make sure that there is a set of requirements for what status files are expected to contain, and a description the necessary disclaimers that need to be present on the various sites. I also want to update http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html . There is already something (purposefully minimal) in the IncubatorPolicyDraft document on Wiki - you are more than welcome to modify/change/update. This is the raw text for what will be the normative requirements, so would be the best place to put it. Alternatively - if you still want to hit the Process document, it's about to get changed. If you are able to hold on for 24 hours, I'll get the new version into the drafts section so that you can update what is going to get moved over. If not - go mad and I'll try to incorporate your changes back into the new Process document. It won't be until Monday that I begin updating this. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Jim Jagielski wrote: Nicola is sending/has sent to you the result of the vote. I was waiting for 72 hours after the ACK of the board, as is required, to declare you guys in the PMC, but it has leaked out ;-) In any case, you guys are in :-) On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 02:20 PM, Ted Leung wrote: On 10/3/2003 10:37 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote: My simple question about who is actually on the PMC has also gone unanswered, though it has only been three days. Aaron Bannert Nicola Ken Barozzi (Chair select) Noel Bergman (new member) Ken Coar Roy Fielding B. W. Fitzpatrick Paul Hammant Ted Leung (new member) This is great, but it's also news to me... Jim Jagielski Sam Ruby Leo Simmons (new member) Davanum Srinivas (new member) Greg Stein Sander Striker -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Sam Ruby wrote: Can I ask that you document the process of updating the site? Looks like it's already there, but not very obvious. I will add to the side-bar, but in the interim : http://incubator.apache.org/updating_docs.html I want to make sure that there is a set of requirements for what status files are expected to contain, and a description the necessary disclaimers that need to be present on the various sites. I also want to update http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html . There is already something (purposefully minimal) in the IncubatorPolicyDraft document on Wiki - you are more than welcome to modify/change/update. This is the raw text for what will be the normative requirements, so would be the best place to put it. Alternatively - if you still want to hit the Process document, it's about to get changed. If you are able to hold on for 24 hours, I'll get the new version into the drafts section so that you can update what is going to get moved over. If not - go mad and I'll try to incorporate your changes back into the new Process document. Cheers, Berin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: > "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Judging from the move we made with james, CVS was easy. ezmlm a bit more > > involved, but our users seemed to find us easily enough when the list > > address changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Moving the web site was easy. > I'd like to oppose this. (Sorry) I'm only reporting experience, not proposing action. > People (committers) left it as it was, so I guess many *newbies* would > have wander off, by complaining, No Committers left, so I have no idea what you are talking about. Also, the subscriber list was moved. The only thing that anyone needed to do was change their address book. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 05:45:15 -0700 Greg Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But if NOTHING is done after two weeks, then it is no longer about > ignorance, but about failure to let people know about the projects' actual > status. A completely different matter. People often lost the precious e-mails due to the current Here "SPAM" There "SPAM" Everywhere "SPAM", "SPAM" era It's very sad to say, however, the reality would be such. Cautions once a week would be enough. > > Nurturing, caring attitudes would be required, for catching the > > developers' heart. ;-) > Good point. My post was more aimed at the people who are shepherding the > project (e.g. Sam) rather than the developers. IMO, Sam should know > better, and should have fixed this long ago. Just my two yen :-) (= 2 cents) ... Just Sam did not know how he should put the lines, I guess. Don't blame. The root of the evil would be the inconsistency of the "incubator project" itself, I am sure. > > # This is "INCUBATION" project, not "GOLEM" project ;-) > Not sure I understand the GOLEM reference, but the smiley is noted :-) D'oh... I meant "bloodcurdling gatekeeper" by "GOLEM". Maybe the "Anime/Manga/Video-Game" Mania (Otaku?) in apache world would give you more precise and nice explanations. :-) # Of course, you can make use of ggle ;-) In the business world, "inbubation"/"incubator" is rather "ANGEL". Full of "nurturing", "caring" attitudes towards the "embryo". I suspect that the Incubator Project in the ASF is going to the opposite choking the embrio into death without sufficient "OXYGEN".. OH, Scared > > JaxMe folks, wsrp4j folks, > Dims has already taken care of the pages. Woo! :-) He used Cliff's text > from XMLBeans, which is quite an excellent description/disclaimer. (thanks > Cliff!) Great! .. maybe the same should go for the pluto (incubation under jakarta/jetspeed) project, too. -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) --- Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.terra-intl.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Berin Lautenbach wrote: Sam Ruby wrote: I'm under the weather, and a little irritable, but this is starting to get under my skin. I am trying to follow http://incubator.apache.org/process.html I have asked for this to be updated. I have asked for information on how I can update this. Sam, I am 90% of the way through doing an overhaul of process.html that I am going to place (this weekend) in the drafts section of the incubator site. In the interim, if you want to see what is going on in terms of content, have a look at : (To be the Non-normative process description - nearly ready to go accross). http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?IncubatorMussings (To be the normative set of incubation requirements - still embryonic, and not yet ready to go into drafts on site) http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?IncubatorPolicyDraft Can I ask that you document the process of updating the site? I want to make sure that there is a set of requirements for what status files are expected to contain, and a description the necessary disclaimers that need to be present on the various sites. I also want to update http://incubator.apache.org/projects/index.html . - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Sam Ruby wrote: I'm under the weather, and a little irritable, but this is starting to get under my skin. I am trying to follow http://incubator.apache.org/process.html I have asked for this to be updated. I have asked for information on how I can update this. Sam, I am 90% of the way through doing an overhaul of process.html that I am going to place (this weekend) in the drafts section of the incubator site. In the interim, if you want to see what is going on in terms of content, have a look at : (To be the Non-normative process description - nearly ready to go accross). http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?IncubatorMussings (To be the normative set of incubation requirements - still embryonic, and not yet ready to go into drafts on site) http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?IncubatorPolicyDraft Cheers, Berin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 19:00:57 -0400 "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Judging from the move we made with james, CVS was easy. ezmlm a bit more > involved, but our users seemed to find us easily enough when the list > address changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Moving the web site was easy. I'd like to oppose this. (Sorry) People (committers) left it as it was, so I guess many *newbies* would have wander off, by complaining, "Heck! I can not subscribe to XX project mailing list!!" The same goes for "CVS repository", I can easily imagine. I re-wrote something before (in June, July -- 6 months AFTER the graduations).. I sometimes re-wrote "http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html"; and so on. Removing the domain would be a pain. Don't be silly, guys. it would be nice to be able to create the eyebrowse archive, mailing list itself and cvs repository in the intended destination. (except, the destination would be TLP, such as geronimo) -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Greg Stein wrote: > > If we kept all incubated projects under the incubator it would have been > > clear enough. > I'm alright with that, but I think we need infrastructure sign-off first. > If they respond with, "holy crap. moving cvs repositories and mailing > lists are the biggest pains in the ass" CVS, mailing lists, web site, and eyebrowse archives. I haven't moved the James archives (the lists, themselves, were moved long ago to the correct domain), yet, since Berin and I are still working our way through a backlog of eyebrowse requests, but here are the instructions to move James' mailing lists from Jakarta to James: http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?Eyebrowse/JamesMove It is a bit of a pain, so it would be nice to be able to create the eyebrowse archive in the intended destination. Mind you, the archive domain is transparent to the outside world. It would be possible to put a podling's eyebrowse archives under the intended TLP's directory tree with no external visibilty. Judging from the move we made with james, CVS was easy. ezmlm a bit more involved, but our users seemed to find us easily enough when the list address changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Moving the web site was easy. Since, AIUI, the CVS module is just a rename from incubator-X to TLP-X, that ought not be much of an issue. A rename and a minor edit in avail, right? Am I missing something? --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Sam Ruby wrote: > I am trying to follow http://incubator.apache.org/process.html > I have asked for this to be updated. > I have asked for information on how I can update this. Berin Lautenbach is beginning to update the incubator documents. Apparently you need to use Forrest. Parenthetically, I think that if we're going to use Forrest, we have to put a publishing system in place, rather than require each Committer to install it. Steven Noels needs help to Forrestbot running on moof. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Nicola is sending/has sent to you the result of the vote. On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 02:20 PM, Ted Leung wrote: On 10/3/2003 10:37 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote: My simple question about who is actually on the PMC has also gone unanswered, though it has only been three days. Aaron Bannert Nicola Ken Barozzi (Chair select) Noel Bergman (new member) Ken Coar Roy Fielding B. W. Fitzpatrick Paul Hammant Ted Leung (new member) This is great, but it's also news to me... Jim Jagielski Sam Ruby Leo Simmons (new member) Davanum Srinivas (new member) Greg Stein Sander Striker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Added myself to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list. Yes, my +1 to Berin (if i may). Thanks, dims --- "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ted Leung wrote: > > On 10/3/2003 10:37 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote: > > > >[The members of the Incubator PMC are:] > > > Aaron Bannert > > > Nicola Ken Barozzi (Chair select) > > > Noel Bergman (new member) > > > Ken Coar > > > Roy Fielding > > > B. W. Fitzpatrick > > > Paul Hammant > > > Ted Leung (new member) > > > This is great, but it's also news to me... > > > > Jim Jagielski > > > Sam Ruby > > > Leo Simmons (new member) > > > Davanum Srinivas (new member) > > > Greg Stein > > > Sander Striker > > Same here, but I accept the nomination (and have subscribed to the list). I > suspect that it is due to being the shephard for a project under incubation, > although I am finding the evolution of the incubator worth participating in > on its own merit. I am more surprised not to see Berin Lautenbach's name. > > --- Noel > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > = Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Ted Leung wrote: > On 10/3/2003 10:37 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote: > >[The members of the Incubator PMC are:] > > Aaron Bannert > > Nicola Ken Barozzi (Chair select) > > Noel Bergman (new member) > > Ken Coar > > Roy Fielding > > B. W. Fitzpatrick > > Paul Hammant > > Ted Leung (new member) > This is great, but it's also news to me... > > Jim Jagielski > > Sam Ruby > > Leo Simmons (new member) > > Davanum Srinivas (new member) > > Greg Stein > > Sander Striker Same here, but I accept the nomination (and have subscribed to the list). I suspect that it is due to being the shephard for a project under incubation, although I am finding the evolution of the incubator worth participating in on its own merit. I am more surprised not to see Berin Lautenbach's name. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On 10/3/2003 10:37 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote: My simple question about who is actually on the PMC has also gone unanswered, though it has only been three days. Aaron Bannert Nicola Ken Barozzi (Chair select) Noel Bergman (new member) Ken Coar Roy Fielding B. W. Fitzpatrick Paul Hammant Ted Leung (new member) This is great, but it's also news to me... Jim Jagielski Sam Ruby Leo Simmons (new member) Davanum Srinivas (new member) Greg Stein Sander Striker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 09:20 AM, Jason van Zyl wrote: On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 11:59, Sam Ruby wrote: I'm under the weather, and a little irritable, but this is starting to get under my skin. I am trying to follow http://incubator.apache.org/process.html I have asked for this to be updated. I have asked for information on how I can update this. These questions have gone unanswered. My simple question about who is actually on the PMC has also gone unanswered, though it has only been three days. Aaron Bannert Nicola Ken Barozzi (Chair select) Noel Bergman (new member) Ken Coar Roy Fielding B. W. Fitzpatrick Paul Hammant Ted Leung (new member) Jim Jagielski Sam Ruby Leo Simmons (new member) Davanum Srinivas (new member) Greg Stein Sander Striker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Fri, 2003-10-03 at 11:59, Sam Ruby wrote: > I'm under the weather, and a little irritable, but this is starting to > get under my skin. > > I am trying to follow http://incubator.apache.org/process.html > > I have asked for this to be updated. > > I have asked for information on how I can update this. > > These questions have gone unanswered. My simple question about who is actually on the PMC has also gone unanswered, though it has only been three days. -- jvz. Jason van Zyl [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://tambora.zenplex.org In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it. -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Greg Stein wrote: On Fri, Oct 03, 2003 at 08:38:40PM +0900, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: (CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) It seems that the same goes for the JaxMe, too. Anyway, please take a glance at http://ws.apache.org/ ... section. That section has zero bearing on the wsrp4j pages themselves. I hit those pages via a link, not the top-level. In the Age of Google, it is relatively rare to navigate through a menu. Oh, geez. JaxMe has no notice on its pages either. To what document do I need to add rule that says "a project ABSOLUTELY MUST make clear that it is under incubation?" We've already been through this process where incubated projects are not being clear about their status; that needs to be captured and retained for ALL incubated projects. A good start would be http://incubator.apache.org/process.html. But what pisses me off the most is that I raised this about wsrp4j a couple weeks ago, but it wasn't fixed. -g - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Fwd: Fwd: Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects]
Thanks dims, for taking care of this. Apologies to the Greg, and community. I was not subscribed to the incubator mailing list so I didn't see this issue raised 2 weeks ago. I'm still trying to figure out how everything works around here. Any and all constructive feedback is welcome. Original Message Subject: Fwd: Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 04:47:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wsrp dev folks, PLEASE act on this... Thanks, dims --- Greg Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 04:00:36 -0700 From: Greg Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 12:47:50PM -0400, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: > Cliff Schmidt wrote: > > > > "XMLBeans is an incubated subproject under the sponsorship of the Apache > > Software Foundation's (ASF) XML project. > > it all looks good, except for this. i think i would prefer something > like > > 'XMLBeans is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software > Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the ASF's XML Project.' > > the original uses the past tense and the semantically semi-null > term 'subproject'. All good. Note that wsrp4j *STILL* needs to mention they are an incubated project on their web pages. There isn't any kind of a mention, let alone some kind of normative text. I raised this two weeks ago, yet I see no motion to fix it. Personally, that makes me want to go and rip down the project's web pages. I would *seriously* recommend that wsrp4j people fix those pages. ASAP. The project's arrival in the Incubator is suspect enough, so I'm not really all that willing to give it slack. Fix it or it gets yanked. -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ -- Julie MacNaught IBM Research WSRP4J, WSRP [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Greg Stein wrote: On Fri, Oct 03, 2003 at 09:10:58PM +0900, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 04:39:00 -0700 Greg Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Anyway, please take a glance at http://ws.apache.org/ ... section. But what pisses me off the most is that I raised this about wsrp4j a couple weeks ago, but it wasn't fixed. Aha, Okay. I think that the folks in wsrp4j just did not know how to do. It happens all the time. People should not blame ones' ignorance. Agreed. And I raised the point two weeks ago, noting that Apache Lenya also missed out on the disclaimer and that raised hackles. That it was best for all incubated projects to insert some text about their status within the disclaimer. But if NOTHING is done after two weeks, then it is no longer about ignorance, but about failure to let people know about the projects' actual status. A completely different matter. Nurturing, caring attitudes would be required, for catching the developers' heart. ;-) Good point. My post was more aimed at the people who are shepherding the project (e.g. Sam) rather than the developers. IMO, Sam should know better, and should have fixed this long ago. I'm under the weather, and a little irritable, but this is starting to get under my skin. I am trying to follow http://incubator.apache.org/process.html I have asked for this to be updated. I have asked for information on how I can update this. These questions have gone unanswered. - Sam Ruby # This is "INCUBATION" project, not "GOLEM" project ;-) Not sure I understand the GOLEM reference, but the smiley is noted :-) -- JaxMe folks, wsrp4j folks, Dims has already taken care of the pages. Woo! :-) He used Cliff's text from XMLBeans, which is quite an excellent description/disclaimer. (thanks Cliff!) Thanks, Dims! ... Cheers, -g - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Confirmed. Really great job! (Otsukare sama desita) -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) P.S. I think you can change the URL of the link to "Pluto" (@ left-side navi on wsrp4j project website): http://jakarta.apache.org/pluto/ On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 05:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (Subject: Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects) Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Updated http://ws.apache.org/jaxme/ and http://ws.apache.org/wsrp4j with disclaimer > text. Please > review. > > Thanks, > dims - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Fri, Oct 03, 2003 at 02:19:50PM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: > Greg Stein wrote: > ... > > To what document do I need to add rule that says "a project ABSOLUTELY > > MUST make clear that it is under incubation?" > > If we kept all incubated projects under the incubator it would have been > clear enough. I'm alright with that, but I think we need infrastructure sign-off first. If they respond with, "holy crap. moving cvs repositories and mailing lists are the biggest pains in the ass", then we may want to reconsider "everybody under incubator.apache.org". If the response is, "pfft. no big deal. we can easily move mailing lists and cvs repositories" then I'd agree with you. Put *everybody* under incubator and only move them when they exit. [ cc'd infrastructure for commentary ] > > We've already been through > > this process where incubated projects are not being clear about their > > status; that needs to be captured and retained for ALL incubated projects. > > Proposal: if we still don't want to make incubator-xxx repositories for > these files, I would still suggest that: > >1 - the websites are placed in >incubator.apache.org/projects/subproject >2 - these projects have as project logo the Incubator Logo >3 - They all have as a bottom line disclaimer a note that the project >is in incubation Since the web site is the primary "arrival point" for the projects, this would do the trick. Depending on infrastructure@'s response, I'd totally agree with this. I'll go one step further and note that the Board has mandated that the Incubator is a required step for incoming projects; thus, all PMCs must follow its rules for incoming projects. IOW, a PMC cannot maintain a separate website, but must always defer to the incubator pages pending exit-from-incubation. > Greg, if you want to be more sure that it's done, IMO we need to be a > bit more normnative and say *exactly* what is needed to have. Agreed. Thus my query: where? :-) And with the "where" question, we are pending infrastructure's recommendation. > I think the above proposal is reasonable, as it minimizes the > infrastructure changes when the project is out of incubation (basically > 0) and keeps the project clearly in incubation. Agreed. Great recommendation! Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Fri, Oct 03, 2003 at 09:10:58PM +0900, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: > On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 04:39:00 -0700 > Greg Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Anyway, please take a glance at > > > http://ws.apache.org/ > > > ... section. > > > But what pisses me off the most is that I raised this about wsrp4j a > > couple weeks ago, but it wasn't fixed. > > Aha, Okay. I think that the folks in wsrp4j just did not know how > to do. It happens all the time. People should not blame ones' ignorance. Agreed. And I raised the point two weeks ago, noting that Apache Lenya also missed out on the disclaimer and that raised hackles. That it was best for all incubated projects to insert some text about their status within the disclaimer. But if NOTHING is done after two weeks, then it is no longer about ignorance, but about failure to let people know about the projects' actual status. A completely different matter. > Nurturing, caring attitudes would be required, for catching the > developers' heart. ;-) Good point. My post was more aimed at the people who are shepherding the project (e.g. Sam) rather than the developers. IMO, Sam should know better, and should have fixed this long ago. > # This is "INCUBATION" project, not "GOLEM" project ;-) Not sure I understand the GOLEM reference, but the smiley is noted :-) > -- > > JaxMe folks, wsrp4j folks, Dims has already taken care of the pages. Woo! :-) He used Cliff's text from XMLBeans, which is quite an excellent description/disclaimer. (thanks Cliff!) Thanks, Dims! >... Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Updated http://ws.apache.org/jaxme/ and http://ws.apache.org/wsrp4j with disclaimer text. Please review. Thanks, dims --- Tetsuya Kitahata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 04:39:00 -0700 > Greg Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Anyway, please take a glance at > > > http://ws.apache.org/ > > > ... section. > > > But what pisses me off the most is that I raised this about wsrp4j a > > couple weeks ago, but it wasn't fixed. > > Aha, Okay. I think that the folks in wsrp4j just did not know how > to do. It happens all the time. People should not blame ones' ignorance. > Nurturing, caring attitudes would be required, for catching the > developers' heart. ;-) > # This is "INCUBATION" project, not "GOLEM" project ;-) > > -- > > JaxMe folks, wsrp4j folks, > > Could it be possible for you to append "Disclaimer" page and left-side > navi for such a page to each pages? > > JaxMe: create disclaimer.xml (alike to other xml files) and put it >into xdocs/ directory. >Then, edit xdocs/stylesheet/project.xml (LEFT-SIDE NAVI) >and re-build the site. > WSRP4J: create disclaimer.xml (alike to other xml files) and put it > into src/documentation/content/xdocs/ directory. > Then, edit src/documentation/content/xdocs/site.xml > (LEFT-SIDE NAVI) and re-build the site. > > NOTE: > Both "built" files should be put onto the "ws-site" module > (*targets*/XX/ directory) > > Editing "index.html/xml" would be also highly appreciated, I think. > > You can make use of the sentence shown at " section": > http://ws.apache.org/ > > Hope this helps. > > > -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > = Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Greg Stein wrote: ... To what document do I need to add rule that says "a project ABSOLUTELY MUST make clear that it is under incubation?" If we kept all incubated projects under the incubator it would have been clear enough. We've already been through this process where incubated projects are not being clear about their status; that needs to be captured and retained for ALL incubated projects. Proposal: if we still don't want to make incubator-xxx repositories for these files, I would still suggest that: 1 - the websites are placed in incubator.apache.org/projects/subproject 2 - these projects have as project logo the Incubator Logo 3 - They all have as a bottom line disclaimer a note that the project is in incubation Greg, if you want to be more sure that it's done, IMO we need to be a bit more normnative and say *exactly* what is needed to have. I think the above proposal is reasonable, as it minimizes the infrastructure changes when the project is out of incubation (basically 0) and keeps the project clearly in incubation. -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
(CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 04:39:00 -0700 Greg Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Anyway, please take a glance at > > http://ws.apache.org/ > > ... section. > But what pisses me off the most is that I raised this about wsrp4j a > couple weeks ago, but it wasn't fixed. Aha, Okay. I think that the folks in wsrp4j just did not know how to do. It happens all the time. People should not blame ones' ignorance. Nurturing, caring attitudes would be required, for catching the developers' heart. ;-) # This is "INCUBATION" project, not "GOLEM" project ;-) -- JaxMe folks, wsrp4j folks, Could it be possible for you to append "Disclaimer" page and left-side navi for such a page to each pages? JaxMe: create disclaimer.xml (alike to other xml files) and put it into xdocs/ directory. Then, edit xdocs/stylesheet/project.xml (LEFT-SIDE NAVI) and re-build the site. WSRP4J: create disclaimer.xml (alike to other xml files) and put it into src/documentation/content/xdocs/ directory. Then, edit src/documentation/content/xdocs/site.xml (LEFT-SIDE NAVI) and re-build the site. NOTE: Both "built" files should be put onto the "ws-site" module (*targets*/XX/ directory) Editing "index.html/xml" would be also highly appreciated, I think. You can make use of the sentence shown at " section": http://ws.apache.org/ Hope this helps. -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Fri, Oct 03, 2003 at 08:38:40PM +0900, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: > > (CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > It seems that the same goes for the JaxMe, too. > > Anyway, please take a glance at > http://ws.apache.org/ > ... section. That section has zero bearing on the wsrp4j pages themselves. I hit those pages via a link, not the top-level. In the Age of Google, it is relatively rare to navigate through a menu. Oh, geez. JaxMe has no notice on its pages either. To what document do I need to add rule that says "a project ABSOLUTELY MUST make clear that it is under incubation?" We've already been through this process where incubated projects are not being clear about their status; that needs to be captured and retained for ALL incubated projects. But what pisses me off the most is that I raised this about wsrp4j a couple weeks ago, but it wasn't fixed. -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
(CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) It seems that the same goes for the JaxMe, too. Anyway, please take a glance at http://ws.apache.org/ ... section. Regards, -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 04:00:36 -0700 (Subject: Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects) Greg Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 12:47:50PM -0400, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: > > Cliff Schmidt wrote: > > > > > > "XMLBeans is an incubated subproject under the sponsorship of the Apache > > > Software Foundation's (ASF) XML project. > > > > it all looks good, except for this. i think i would prefer something > > like > > > > 'XMLBeans is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software > > Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the ASF's XML Project.' > > > > the original uses the past tense and the semantically semi-null > > term 'subproject'. > > All good. > > Note that wsrp4j *STILL* needs to mention they are an incubated project on > their web pages. There isn't any kind of a mention, let alone some kind of > normative text. > > I raised this two weeks ago, yet I see no motion to fix it. Personally, > that makes me want to go and rip down the project's web pages. I would > *seriously* recommend that wsrp4j people fix those pages. ASAP. The > project's arrival in the Incubator is suspect enough, so I'm not really > all that willing to give it slack. Fix it or it gets yanked. > > -g > > -- > Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ --- Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.terra-intl.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 12:47:50PM -0400, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: > Cliff Schmidt wrote: > > > > "XMLBeans is an incubated subproject under the sponsorship of the Apache > > Software Foundation's (ASF) XML project. > > it all looks good, except for this. i think i would prefer something > like > > 'XMLBeans is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software > Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the ASF's XML Project.' > > the original uses the past tense and the semantically semi-null > term 'subproject'. All good. Note that wsrp4j *STILL* needs to mention they are an incubated project on their web pages. There isn't any kind of a mention, let alone some kind of normative text. I raised this two weeks ago, yet I see no motion to fix it. Personally, that makes me want to go and rip down the project's web pages. I would *seriously* recommend that wsrp4j people fix those pages. ASAP. The project's arrival in the Incubator is suspect enough, so I'm not really all that willing to give it slack. Fix it or it gets yanked. -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Cliff Schmidt wrote: 'XMLBeans is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the ASF's XML Project.' the original uses the past tense and the semantically semi-null term 'subproject'. Sounds reasonable. Since I haven't heard any other opinions, we're going to go with the original + the one change Ken suggested. +1 (FWIW :>) See http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?action=browse&diff=1&id=IncubatorPolicyDraft&revision=6&diffrevision=5 Hope that was helpful. Very. And appreciated :>. Cheers, Berin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:48 AM, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: > Cliff Schmidt wrote: >> >> "XMLBeans is an incubated subproject under the sponsorship of the >> Apache Software Foundation's (ASF) XML project. > > it all looks good, except for this. i think i would prefer something > like > > 'XMLBeans is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software > Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the ASF's XML Project.' > > the original uses the past tense and the semantically semi-null > term 'subproject'. Sounds reasonable. Since I haven't heard any other opinions, we're going to go with the original + the one change Ken suggested. I've also taken the liberty to update the IncubatorPolicyDraft wiki page with the latest text. Aside from adding the paragraph, I've also made the required word in the filename be "incubating", instead of "incubator". I thought this better reflected the state of the code (not an incubator itself, and not already incubated, but still incubating). See http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?action=browse&diff=1&id=IncubatorPolicyDraft&revision=6&diffrevision=5 Hope that was helpful. Cliff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
On 01/10/2003, at 06:47, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: Cliff Schmidt wrote: "XMLBeans is an incubated subproject under the sponsorship of the Apache Software Foundation's (ASF) XML project. it all looks good, except for this. i think i would prefer something like 'XMLBeans is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the ASF's XML Project.' Definitely better. +1 to the rest. Cheers, Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Disclaimer text for incubated projects
Cliff Schmidt wrote: > > "XMLBeans is an incubated subproject under the sponsorship of the Apache > Software Foundation's (ASF) XML project. it all looks good, except for this. i think i would prefer something like 'XMLBeans is an effort undergoing incubation at the Apache Software Foundation (ASF), sponsored by the ASF's XML Project.' the original uses the past tense and the semantically semi-null term 'subproject'. just mho. -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!" - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disclaimer text for incubated projects
After getting positive feedback from this list about the idea of allowing incubated projects to publish binary releases as long as they clearly identified them as being part of an incubated project, I've written the following paragraph to be used on the web site and inside the README file (in addition to using "incubated" in the file name of the download): "XMLBeans is an incubated subproject under the sponsorship of the Apache Software Foundation's (ASF) XML project. Incubation is required of all newly accepted projects until a further review indicates that the infrastructure, communications, and decision making process have stabilized in a manner consistent with other successful ASF projects. While incubation status is not necessarily a reflection of the completeness or stability of the code, it does indicate that the project has yet to be fully endorsed by the ASF." Please let me know if there are any suggestions or concerns about this text; otherwise, I'll move forward with it. Thanks, Cliff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
