Re: Leo settings revamp (was Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users))
On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 8:30 AM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor wrote: >> A clever idea. However, I don't understand how this would work. Are >> the "copied" nodes actually cross-file clones? > > No, just a one time "copy on demand" from leoSettings.leo to > myLeoSettings.leo. Oh! Delightfully simple and clever! Great idea. > So we could add an ID of some sort to nodes in leoSettings.leo, so they > could be used by a data structure like this: [snip] I agree: it's the simplest thing that could possible work. Well done. Edward -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Leo settings revamp (was Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users))
On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 06:33:48 -0500
"Edward K. Ream" wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:20 PM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor
> wrote:
>
> > E.g. from the Settings menu:
> >
> > Settings -> Appearance -> Fonts
> >
> > would open myLeoSettings.leo at the appropriate place (copying
> > nodes in from LeoSettings.leo if needed), so the user would be
> > looking at a node with the following children:
> >
> > @string body-text-font = Courier New
> > @string log-text-font = Courier New
> > @int body-text-font-size = 17px
> > @int log-text-font-size = 12px
> >
> > etc. - something along those lines. The "pick-font" button I just
> > added is just a convenience so the user can find font names on their
> > system easily.
> >
> > The body of the node with those children would have some simple
> > instructions, probably "Click the reload-styles button after making
> > changes here".
> >
> > Once the infrastructure's set up we should be able to build out the
> > Settings menu entries quite quickly. By infrastructure I mean the
> > Settings -> Appearance -> Fonts entry knowing which node to copy
> > from LeoSettings to myLeoSettings, if it's not already copied,
> > where the stylesheet needs to be, etc. etc.
>
> A clever idea. However, I don't understand how this would work. Are
> the "copied" nodes actually cross-file clones?
No, just a one time "copy on demand" from leoSettings.leo to
myLeoSettings.leo. Currently Settings -> Personal settings creates
myLeoSettings.leo if it doesn't exist, copying @enabledplugins from
leoSettings.leo and creating a stub @keys -> @shortcuts node.
So we could add an ID of some sort to nodes in leoSettings.leo, so they
could be used by a data structure like this:
[
("Appearance", [
("Fonts", "FONT_SETTINGS"),
("Colors", "COLOR_SETTINGS"),
("Active frame", "ACTIVE_FRAME"),
]),
("Layout", [
("Tabs", "TAB_SETTINGS"),
("Width", "WIDTH_SETTINGS"),
]),
("Abbreviations", [
etc. etc.
]),
]
I.e. a list of tuples making up menu and sub-menu items under the
Settings Menu:
Appearance
Fonts
Colors
Active frame
Layout
Tabs
Width
etc.
which, when selected, search myLeoSettings.leo for the relevant entry
and, if it's not there already, copy it over from leoSettings.leo.
So the actual settings mechanism is exactly as it is now, it's just
easier to navigate and more automated in the "only what you need"
leoSettings.leo to myLeoSettings.leo copying.
It's the simplest thing that could possibly work(TM) :-)
The ID could be handled any number of ways, gnx, UNL, uA, but I'm
inclined to just use text at the bottom of the organizer nodes, which
would be used to present instructions for preference editing. E.g.
(using '|' to indicate body text lines, all other lines are node
headlines):
Font settings
| After you've changed the font settings below, click the
| reload-styles button to update the appearance of Leo.
| You can use the pick-font button to find font names on
| your system.
|
| SETTINGS_NODE: FONT_SETTINGS
@string body-text-font = Courier New
@string log-text-font = Courier New
@int body-text-font-size = 17px
@int log-text-font-size = 12px
Cheers -Terry
> That is, suppose you present these nodes to the user, and they make
> changes to the nodes. How are the nodes in the various files
> updated?
>
> And where do the "copied" nodes appear? In a separate, newly created
> outline? In a leoSettings.leo?
>
> Edward
>
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"leo-editor" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Leo settings revamp (was Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users))
On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 12:20 PM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor wrote: > E.g. from the Settings menu: > > Settings -> Appearance -> Fonts > > would open myLeoSettings.leo at the appropriate place (copying nodes in > from LeoSettings.leo if needed), so the user would be looking at a node > with the following children: > > @string body-text-font = Courier New > @string log-text-font = Courier New > @int body-text-font-size = 17px > @int log-text-font-size = 12px > > etc. - something along those lines. The "pick-font" button I just > added is just a convenience so the user can find font names on their > system easily. > > The body of the node with those children would have some simple > instructions, probably "Click the reload-styles button after making > changes here". > > Once the infrastructure's set up we should be able to build out the > Settings menu entries quite quickly. By infrastructure I mean the > Settings -> Appearance -> Fonts entry knowing which node to copy from > LeoSettings to myLeoSettings, if it's not already copied, where the > stylesheet needs to be, etc. etc. A clever idea. However, I don't understand how this would work. Are the "copied" nodes actually cross-file clones? That is, suppose you present these nodes to the user, and they make changes to the nodes. How are the nodes in the various files updated? And where do the "copied" nodes appear? In a separate, newly created outline? In a leoSettings.leo? Edward -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Leo settings revamp (was Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users))
Im also very grateful. This has been my main concern about newbies eversince I joined Leo. Everyone is used to edit the basic config from a menu-like structure, only programmers can directly do that from an outline :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Leo settings revamp (was Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users))
I am so glad all this is happening, at last! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Leo settings revamp (was Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users))
On Mon, 9 Jun 2014 10:06:09 -0700 (PDT) duf...@gmail.com wrote: > As an alternative to a restructuring of the settings, I propose a > menu-based simplified access to the settings, which will let the user > zoom-in to the relevant part of the settings file. The most commonly > used settings (font color and size, background color, etc.) would > have an entry in the menu, and upon clicking on an entry you would be > able to edit that part directly. That is the current plan :-) E.g. from the Settings menu: Settings -> Appearance -> Fonts would open myLeoSettings.leo at the appropriate place (copying nodes in from LeoSettings.leo if needed), so the user would be looking at a node with the following children: @string body-text-font = Courier New @string log-text-font = Courier New @int body-text-font-size = 17px @int log-text-font-size = 12px etc. - something along those lines. The "pick-font" button I just added is just a convenience so the user can find font names on their system easily. The body of the node with those children would have some simple instructions, probably "Click the reload-styles button after making changes here". Once the infrastructure's set up we should be able to build out the Settings menu entries quite quickly. By infrastructure I mean the Settings -> Appearance -> Fonts entry knowing which node to copy from LeoSettings to myLeoSettings, if it's not already copied, where the stylesheet needs to be, etc. etc. Cheers -Terry -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
As an alternative to a restructuring of the settings, I propose a menu-based simplified access to the settings, which will let the user zoom-in to the relevant part of the settings file. The most commonly used settings (font color and size, background color, etc.) would have an entry in the menu, and upon clicking on an entry you would be able to edit that part directly. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2014 10:42:36 -0500 "'Terry Brown' via leo-editor" wrote: > But you're right, ultimately it's just a matter of finding time. Baby steps, I just added color and font selection tools to LeoSettings, with the intent they be automatically copied into myLeoSettings when the latter's created (as is already the case for @enabledplugins). Unfortunately I also added a DateTime picker tool, and testing that reminded me I'm out of time for now :-} Cheers -Terry -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
Along these lines, I recall discussion of a possible clean-up of key bindings, a number of out-of-the-box bindings being somewhat obscure, and limiting availability for user-defined ones. I don't, however, recall the conclusion of the discussion. Thanks, Kent On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 10:42 AM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor wrote: > On Mon, 9 Jun 2014 06:31:03 -0700 (PDT) > Todd Mars wrote: > >> >> >> There is no reason why the settings cannot be made user friendly, >> other than the work involved. >> Simply enumerating the specific problems from the beginning, and >> designing a friendly user interface to perform the tasks. >> When that is done, a good programmer can do it. > > Bear in mind that that are ~1100 nodes in the Leo @settings tree. So > at least ~1000 settings that can be set, some of which have complex > values. If Leo's settings are going to be handled in a Leonine way, > it's a matter of making the use of Leo to manage common settings user > friendly enough that it's no barrier to newbies. So a hierarchical > Settings menu which lands you in the right place, and a @settings > editing environment documented and tuned for easy editing (color, font, > file, and directory selection tools for example). > > But you're right, ultimately it's just a matter of finding time. > > Cheers -Terry > >> Todd. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "leo-editor" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
On Mon, 9 Jun 2014 06:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Todd Mars wrote: > > > There is no reason why the settings cannot be made user friendly, > other than the work involved. > Simply enumerating the specific problems from the beginning, and > designing a friendly user interface to perform the tasks. > When that is done, a good programmer can do it. Bear in mind that that are ~1100 nodes in the Leo @settings tree. So at least ~1000 settings that can be set, some of which have complex values. If Leo's settings are going to be handled in a Leonine way, it's a matter of making the use of Leo to manage common settings user friendly enough that it's no barrier to newbies. So a hierarchical Settings menu which lands you in the right place, and a @settings editing environment documented and tuned for easy editing (color, font, file, and directory selection tools for example). But you're right, ultimately it's just a matter of finding time. Cheers -Terry > Todd. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
There is no reason why the settings cannot be made user friendly, other than the work involved. Simply enumerating the specific problems from the beginning, and designing a friendly user interface to perform the tasks. When that is done, a good programmer can do it. Todd. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:57 PM, Edward K. Ream wrote: I'm convinced by Lawrence Lessig: we urgently need small-dollar funded campaigns. Googling "small dollar elections" will send you to various relevant bills and organizations. Edward -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:16 PM, wgw wrote: > there are still reasons to work on GOOD THINGS (™) without abandoning the > work against the BAD THINGS (®). I agree completely. > I particularly appreciate Lessig's Google presentation > (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik1AK56FtVc) and TED talk > (http://www.ted.com/talks /lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim) Thanks for these links. I'm watching the first talk now. It's great stuff. I'm finding Leo hard to work on precisely because I find politics so interesting and important. Not pretty, just important. > . He makes a convincing case that money pollution is the most fundamentally > destructive pollution we are facing today. Again, I agree completely. That's why I cited McCutcheon v. Federal Election Commission. Whether grass roots campaigns, regardless of their targets, can ever compete with full-time well-funded propaganda (not to mention almost-full-time dialing for dollars) remains to be seen. I am not hopeful. Edward -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
Not wanting to stoke the flames of debate nor the paralysis of despair (human reactions to the daily news), I do want to suggest that however dark things are, in the US in particular --i.e. somewhere between the McCarthy era and the rise of the Nazis in Germany --, there are still reasons to work on GOOD THINGS (*™*) without abandoning the work against the BAD THINGS (®). Leo certainly falls into the former category, and there are movements to do the latter: I particularly appreciate Lessig's Google presentation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik1AK56FtVc) and TED talk (http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim) . He makes a convincing case that money pollution is the most fundamentally destructive pollution we are facing today. His RootStrikers movement is one answer among a growing number of responses. My rambling point is that it there is good reason to put time into GOOD THINGS (small or not) as a break from the muck and a reminder of what good things are about. Open source software does that for me. Thanks Edward for the references (I will give the Follet book to my son; his generation will have to face something on the scale of WWII, but in a very different form.) It is a hopeful sign that there are so many lucid presentations of our plight, however dire (to name one: Last Call at the Oasis). Bill Le mercredi 14 mai 2014 12:14:16 UTC-7, Edward K. Ream a écrit : > > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 10:15 PM, > wrote: > > I am a long-time lurker on this newsgroup, and I have noticed that in > the > > last few months there have been significant improvements to Leo, in the > > hopes of making it more accessible to the non-technical crowd. > > Leo seems insignificant at present. I have little interest in whether > Leo is "accessible" to non-technical people. Learn Leo or not--it's > your choice. I also have scant interest in Leo "vs." Emacs or Vim. > > Consider what's happening today, including one-dollar-one-vote > democracy [0], "neutered, impotent and obsolete" U.S. corporate media > [1] , out-of-control military [2] and surveillance [3] establishments, > worldwide inaction on CO2 emissions [4] and an ongoing human-caused > mass extinction rivaling the previous "big 5" mass extinctions [5], > all enabled by 24/7 corporate-funded right-wing propaganda [6] and > [7]. > > Two novels emphasize the need for courage in the present > circumstances: A Tale for the Time Being [8] and The Winter of the > World [9]. I recommend either or both for those who think the issues > listed above are no concern of ordinary people. > > If there is one area where I might still make a difference in the > computing world, it might be high-speed analysis of types for Python. > Lest you think this is a minor business, it is a fact that any useful > analysis of computer programs (for example, any kind of refactoring) > requires robust knowledge of types. > > Edward > > [0] > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCutcheon_v._Federal_Election_Commission#Subsequent_commentary > > [1] > http://www.democracynow.org/2014/5/14/glenn_greenwald_us_corporate_media_is > [2] http://www.pogo.org/our-work/straus-military-reform-project/ > [3] https://firstlook.org/theintercept/ > [4] http://www.motherjones.com/category/primary-tags/climate-desk > [5] > http://www.amazon.com/Sixth-Extinction-Unnatural-History-ebook/dp/B00EGJE4G2/ > [6] > http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/11/28/meet-the-climate-denial-machine/191545 > > [7] http://www.desmogblog.com/ > [8] http://www.amazon.com/Tale-Time-Being-Ruth-Ozeki-ebook/dp/B008EKMB82 > [9] > http://www.amazon.com/Winter-World-Century-Trilogy-2-ebook/dp/B007FEFLTO > > EKR > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
> > Perhaps my reply was unclear. I was attempting to say why, for now at > least, > I personally am not interested in working on Leo. This may change in > the future, especially as my health improves. Or not. > > Edward > > I see. All the more reason for wishing you a speedy recovery, then! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 5:02 PM, wrote: > Edward, I am a bit baffled by your answer. > Is asking for more user friendliness something incompatible with Leo's > philosophy? Not at all. Perhaps my reply was unclear. I was attempting to say why, for now at least, I personally am not interested in working on Leo. This may change in the future, especially as my health improves. Or not. Edward -- Edward K. Ream: edream...@gmail.com Leo: http://leoeditor.com/ Speak the truth, but not to punish--Thich Nhat Hanh -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
Edward, I am a bit baffled by your answer. Is asking for more user friendliness something incompatible with Leo's philosophy? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 10:15 PM, wrote: > I am a long-time lurker on this newsgroup, and I have noticed that in the > last few months there have been significant improvements to Leo, in the > hopes of making it more accessible to the non-technical crowd. Leo seems insignificant at present. I have little interest in whether Leo is "accessible" to non-technical people. Learn Leo or not--it's your choice. I also have scant interest in Leo "vs." Emacs or Vim. Consider what's happening today, including one-dollar-one-vote democracy [0], "neutered, impotent and obsolete" U.S. corporate media [1] , out-of-control military [2] and surveillance [3] establishments, worldwide inaction on CO2 emissions [4] and an ongoing human-caused mass extinction rivaling the previous "big 5" mass extinctions [5], all enabled by 24/7 corporate-funded right-wing propaganda [6] and [7]. Two novels emphasize the need for courage in the present circumstances: A Tale for the Time Being [8] and The Winter of the World [9]. I recommend either or both for those who think the issues listed above are no concern of ordinary people. If there is one area where I might still make a difference in the computing world, it might be high-speed analysis of types for Python. Lest you think this is a minor business, it is a fact that any useful analysis of computer programs (for example, any kind of refactoring) requires robust knowledge of types. Edward [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCutcheon_v._Federal_Election_Commission#Subsequent_commentary [1] http://www.democracynow.org/2014/5/14/glenn_greenwald_us_corporate_media_is [2] http://www.pogo.org/our-work/straus-military-reform-project/ [3] https://firstlook.org/theintercept/ [4] http://www.motherjones.com/category/primary-tags/climate-desk [5] http://www.amazon.com/Sixth-Extinction-Unnatural-History-ebook/dp/B00EGJE4G2/ [6] http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/11/28/meet-the-climate-denial-machine/191545 [7] http://www.desmogblog.com/ [8] http://www.amazon.com/Tale-Time-Being-Ruth-Ozeki-ebook/dp/B008EKMB82 [9] http://www.amazon.com/Winter-World-Century-Trilogy-2-ebook/dp/B007FEFLTO EKR -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
On Wed, 14 May 2014 08:58:33 +0300 "Ville M. Vainio" wrote: > Git is sometimes used to maintain e.g. design assets and > documentation. > > I guess non-technical people will learn to use git when it's > mandatory part of their work. :-) My interest / surprise is that software-carpentry.org teaches git as one of their core skills, in fact their bootcamp recipe is to install gitbash for windows both for git and bash (sed / tr / sort / wc / etc. etc. I assume). Some students here might get to that this summer, but I'm curious about getting it going locally, dreaming of a time when no one sends me Excel spreadsheets with a note "the selected ones are colored red" :-) Cheers -Terry > On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 5:52 PM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor < > leo-editor@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, 9 May 2014 20:13:17 -0700 (PDT) > > Richard Cranium wrote: > > > > > Like all the non-technical people that managed to learn git? > > > > I don't quite understand your comment, and I'm considering trying to > > teach non-technical people git, so I'm curious. Is there a context > > where you see a lot of non-technical people using git? Via > > git-hub, or some other UI? Or is it not as hard as it seems if > > it's explained right? > > > > Thanks, Terry > > > > > On Saturday, May 3, 2014 10:15:17 PM UTC-5, duf...@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I am a long-time lurker on this newsgroup, and I have noticed > > > > that in the last few months there have been significant > > > > improvements to Leo, in the hopes of making it more accessible > > > > to the non-technical crowd. It was certainly a move in the > > > > right direction but, alas, I think it was not enough. The point > > > > of my argument is that Leo is still too technically-oriented, > > > > and this alienates so many potential users. You just have to > > > > read the posts on this newsgroup (as I have been doing for a > > > > long time), to realize that people with little or no > > > > programming experience are bound to find major difficulties in > > > > using Leo, from the very beginning. Just trying to configure > > > > the simplest (UI-related) settings is a major challenge. This > > > > issue was already raised in the past, but is yet to be solved. > > > > > > > > Why can't we (non-technical people) be relieved with having to > > > > tinker with the internal workings of Leo? Come to think of it, > > > > the overwhelming majority of modern programs are totally > > > > GUI-based, so that the settings can be easily changed via > > > > menus. Why can't we have this in Leo too, instead of having to > > > > learn technical jargon and manually modify settings files? I > > > > really don't get it. > > > > > > > > Please, consider doing something radical about it (e.g. > > > > refurbishing the default menus with all the main commands and > > > > settings, at least), or realistically Leo might be bound for > > > > extinction. > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > Duf > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "leo-editor" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > > send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
Git is sometimes used to maintain e.g. design assets and documentation. I guess non-technical people will learn to use git when it's mandatory part of their work. On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 5:52 PM, 'Terry Brown' via leo-editor < leo-editor@googlegroups.com> wrote: > On Fri, 9 May 2014 20:13:17 -0700 (PDT) > Richard Cranium wrote: > > > Like all the non-technical people that managed to learn git? > > I don't quite understand your comment, and I'm considering trying to > teach non-technical people git, so I'm curious. Is there a context > where you see a lot of non-technical people using git? Via git-hub, or > some other UI? Or is it not as hard as it seems if it's explained > right? > > Thanks, Terry > > > On Saturday, May 3, 2014 10:15:17 PM UTC-5, duf...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > I am a long-time lurker on this newsgroup, and I have noticed that > > > in the last few months there have been significant improvements to > > > Leo, in the hopes of making it more accessible to the non-technical > > > crowd. It was certainly a move in the right direction but, alas, I > > > think it was not enough. The point of my argument is that Leo is > > > still too technically-oriented, and this alienates so many > > > potential users. You just have to read the posts on this newsgroup > > > (as I have been doing for a long time), to realize that people with > > > little or no programming experience are bound to find major > > > difficulties in using Leo, from the very beginning. Just trying to > > > configure the simplest (UI-related) settings is a major challenge. > > > This issue was already raised in the past, but is yet to be solved. > > > > > > Why can't we (non-technical people) be relieved with having to > > > tinker with the internal workings of Leo? Come to think of it, the > > > overwhelming majority of modern programs are totally GUI-based, so > > > that the settings can be easily changed via menus. Why can't we > > > have this in Leo too, instead of having to learn technical jargon > > > and manually modify settings files? I really don't get it. > > > > > > Please, consider doing something radical about it (e.g. > > > refurbishing the default menus with all the main commands and > > > settings, at least), or realistically Leo might be bound for > > > extinction. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Duf > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "leo-editor" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
On Fri, 9 May 2014 20:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Richard Cranium wrote: > Like all the non-technical people that managed to learn git? I don't quite understand your comment, and I'm considering trying to teach non-technical people git, so I'm curious. Is there a context where you see a lot of non-technical people using git? Via git-hub, or some other UI? Or is it not as hard as it seems if it's explained right? Thanks, Terry > On Saturday, May 3, 2014 10:15:17 PM UTC-5, duf...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > I am a long-time lurker on this newsgroup, and I have noticed that > > in the last few months there have been significant improvements to > > Leo, in the hopes of making it more accessible to the non-technical > > crowd. It was certainly a move in the right direction but, alas, I > > think it was not enough. The point of my argument is that Leo is > > still too technically-oriented, and this alienates so many > > potential users. You just have to read the posts on this newsgroup > > (as I have been doing for a long time), to realize that people with > > little or no programming experience are bound to find major > > difficulties in using Leo, from the very beginning. Just trying to > > configure the simplest (UI-related) settings is a major challenge. > > This issue was already raised in the past, but is yet to be solved. > > > > Why can't we (non-technical people) be relieved with having to > > tinker with the internal workings of Leo? Come to think of it, the > > overwhelming majority of modern programs are totally GUI-based, so > > that the settings can be easily changed via menus. Why can't we > > have this in Leo too, instead of having to learn technical jargon > > and manually modify settings files? I really don't get it. > > > > Please, consider doing something radical about it (e.g. > > refurbishing the default menus with all the main commands and > > settings, at least), or realistically Leo might be bound for > > extinction. > > > > All the best, > > > > Duf > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
Like all the non-technical people that managed to learn git? On Saturday, May 3, 2014 10:15:17 PM UTC-5, duf...@gmail.com wrote: > > I am a long-time lurker on this newsgroup, and I have noticed that in the > last few months there have been significant improvements to Leo, in the > hopes of making it more accessible to the non-technical crowd. It was > certainly a move in the right direction but, alas, I think it was not > enough. The point of my argument is that Leo is still too > technically-oriented, and this alienates so many potential users. You just > have to read the posts on this newsgroup (as I have been doing for a long > time), to realize that people with little or no programming experience are > bound to find major difficulties in using Leo, from the very beginning. > Just trying to configure the simplest (UI-related) settings is a major > challenge. > This issue was already raised in the past, but is yet to be solved. > > Why can't we (non-technical people) be relieved with having to tinker with > the internal workings of Leo? Come to think of it, the overwhelming > majority of modern programs are totally GUI-based, so that the settings can > be easily changed via menus. Why can't we have this in Leo too, instead of > having to learn technical jargon and manually modify settings files? I > really don't get it. > > Please, consider doing something radical about it (e.g. refurbishing the > default menus with all the main commands and settings, at least), or > realistically Leo might be bound for extinction. > > All the best, > > Duf > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
On Mon, 5 May 2014 10:06:45 -0700 (PDT) duf...@gmail.com wrote: > Thanks for the explanation, Terry. > I think the solution lies in the middle ground that you propose, and > which I was already looking forward to. But I thought it was going to > be implemented months ago! Things seem to have stalled, after an > initial flurry of activity (videocasts, etc) in the right direction. Yes, it has definitely stalled, rather than been completed and failing to be what you were hoping for. I'm very busy these days... maybe next month it won't be so bad, maybe. Cheers -Terry > Leo's settings can by all means remain exactly as they are, with no > problem whatsoever, provided that there is also a more user friendly > way of accessing them, so that the same settings can be accessed in a > more "humanly readable" way. > As things stand today, the situation a bit too intricate, and what > the new user experiences is a feeling of confusion. Complexity tends > to be overwhelming and to put off people. Also, why complexity, when > things could be simplified with no loss? > Hiding at least part of the complexity "under the hood" could be a > major improvement, I believe. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
Thanks for the explanation, Terry. I think the solution lies in the middle ground that you propose, and which I was already looking forward to. But I thought it was going to be implemented months ago! Things seem to have stalled, after an initial flurry of activity (videocasts, etc) in the right direction. Leo's settings can by all means remain exactly as they are, with no problem whatsoever, provided that there is also a more user friendly way of accessing them, so that the same settings can be accessed in a more "humanly readable" way. As things stand today, the situation a bit too intricate, and what the new user experiences is a feeling of confusion. Complexity tends to be overwhelming and to put off people. Also, why complexity, when things could be simplified with no loss? Hiding at least part of the complexity "under the hood" could be a major improvement, I believe. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why Leo is not yet ready for prime time (for most users)
I think why Leo behaves as it does and how it should behave are complicated by the problem of defining what Leo is. Config. user friendliness wise I think there's a possible middle way solution where we make the Leoine way easy for non-technical users. I.e. a settings menu with a hierarchy that lets you select Settings --> Appearance --> Colors --> Backgrounds etc. I think we should get that far and then decide if more GUI is needed, or if the user can be expected to edit a list of background colors. Note providing a visual color picker would be a separate issue, I'm just talking about whether we can ask the user to edit a Leo outline to change scalar values or not. Anyway, as a first step, I've just closed https://bugs.launchpad.net/leo-editor/+bug/555014 Settings -> Open Personal Settings will now create myLeoSettings.leo if it doesn't already exist. Currently the created outline looks like this: Settings README @settings @enabled-plugins @keys @shortcuts myLeoSettings.leo personal settings file created Mon May 5 09:21:51 2014 Only nodes that are descendants of the @settings node are read. Only settings you need to modify should be in this file, do not copy large parts of leoSettings.py here. For more information see http://leoeditor.com/customizing.html (with no actual shortcuts defined in @shortcuts, just a comment about how to do it). More could be added. Cheers -Terry On Sat, 3 May 2014 20:15:17 -0700 (PDT) duf...@gmail.com wrote: > I am a long-time lurker on this newsgroup, and I have noticed that in > the last few months there have been significant improvements to Leo, > in the hopes of making it more accessible to the non-technical crowd. > It was certainly a move in the right direction but, alas, I think it > was not enough. The point of my argument is that Leo is still too > technically-oriented, and this alienates so many potential users. You > just have to read the posts on this newsgroup (as I have been doing > for a long time), to realize that people with little or no > programming experience are bound to find major difficulties in using > Leo, from the very beginning. Just trying to configure the simplest > (UI-related) settings is a major challenge. > This issue was already raised in the past, but is yet to be solved. > > Why can't we (non-technical people) be relieved with having to tinker > with the internal workings of Leo? Come to think of it, the > overwhelming majority of modern programs are totally GUI-based, so > that the settings can be easily changed via menus. Why can't we have > this in Leo too, instead of having to learn technical jargon and > manually modify settings files? I really don't get it. > > Please, consider doing something radical about it (e.g. refurbishing > the default menus with all the main commands and settings, at least), > or realistically Leo might be bound for extinction. > > All the best, > > Duf > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leo-editor+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to leo-editor@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/leo-editor. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
