[LUTE] Re: French Style
"steve burd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > My copy of "Les Agrements - French Baroque Ornamentation," by Michel Pignolet > Monteclaire has arrived from "Jacks, Pipes & Hammers," and I find the > publisher is Peacock Press, not Severinus Press. Sorry for that. Also, an > off-list e-mail suggested it would have been helpful and appreciated had I > mentioned the price. Fifteen pounds sterling, postage paid. Regards, Steve > Burd. Pls do not hesitate to inform the list in case there are some ground breaking news. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
From: "howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This strikes me as the second most useless remark ever made about music, well ahead of the third-place "opera in English makes about as much sense as baseball in Italian." (H.L. Mencken) You would reconsider the uselessness of it- if you ever apply yourself to a creative process. What creative process would make me reconsider baseball in Italian? Creative processes entirely preclude any kind of baseball. RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
On Jun 29, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: >> This strikes me as the second most useless remark ever made about >> music, well ahead of the third-place "opera in English makes about as >> much sense as baseball in Italian." (H.L. Mencken) > You would reconsider the uselessness of it- if you ever apply > yourself to a creative process. What creative process would make me reconsider baseball in Italian? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
From: "howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As Ray Nurse said yesterday (and I know he was quoting somebody else) A quick web search will turn up attributions to Elvis Costello, Laurie Anderson, Frank Zappa, Robyn Hitchcock, Thelonius Monk, Miles Davis and (don't ask me why) Woody Allen and Steve Martin. "talking about music is like dancing about architecture". Or more commonly "writing about music is like dancing about architecture." This strikes me as the second most useless remark ever made about music, well ahead of the third-place "opera in English makes about as much sense as baseball in Italian." (H.L. Mencken) You would reconsider the uselessness of it- if you ever apply yourself to a creative process. (The same goes for visual arts.) RT == Piece du jour- http://polyhymnion.org/swv/music/correnteAm/correnteAm.pdf http://polyhymnion.org/swv/music/correnteAm/correnteAm.mp3 __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
On Jun 28, 2008, at 5:26 PM, Daniel Shoskes wrote: > As Ray Nurse said yesterday (and I know he was quoting somebody else) A quick web search will turn up attributions to Elvis Costello, Laurie Anderson, Frank Zappa, Robyn Hitchcock, Thelonius Monk, Miles Davis and (don't ask me why) Woody Allen and Steve Martin. > "talking about music is like dancing about architecture". Or more commonly "writing about music is like dancing about architecture." This strikes me as the second most useless remark ever made about music, well ahead of the third-place "opera in English makes about as much sense as baseball in Italian." (H.L. Mencken) In any event, I think it's properly understood to mean that using words to describe or analyze the music itself is a pointless exercise (whether this is true in any given instance depends on what ideas need to be conveyed, and the writer's facility with words--for some writers, writing about anything at all is as pointless and meaningless as dancing about architecture). But I don't think our anonymous pundit meant to dismiss discussions about execution. A teacher explaining to a student how to do something is not "dancing about architecture," and similarly a discussion of whether an apoggiatura should be half as long as the main note or twice as long as the main note is not "dancing about architecture." It's just detailed nuts and bolts if you're serious about the music, and trivia if you're not. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
On Jun 28, 2008, at 8:20 PM, howard posner wrote: > Professor Harold Hill wrote: > >> all this 'quibble' about how to play music is interesting but >> pointless. > > True enough. There's nothing more pointless than musicians who want > to know what they're doing. As a friend of mine once opined about his experience(s) with women: "the more I learn, the less I know." So it is IMHO with music. DRastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Could you give us an example of the way you see ornaments as dissonance? Name a tune and the measure where the dissonance occurs. I'm interested to know what you mean. DD On the simplest level, this is about consonance and dissonce. Most people play French baroque music as consonance, but the extraordinary length of the ornaments, when played properly, make it dissonance. It is the most dissonant music in early music; which makes it, to my ear, both unusual and beautiful. I have no objection to anyone preferring to remove the dissonance, but I don't think it is a trivial or purely academic issue. There is also a connection, most readily seen in Charpentier, between the agreements and the figures. I recently heard a recording of Corelli's Christmas concerto. In one place, there are some sharp dissonances written only in the figures of the organ part. That is, there were no string parts sounding these notes. These notes were not played on the recording; for whatever reason, they were left out. It sounded perfectly beautiful. But I would never play it like that, unless I simply did not understand them. dt At 05:26 PM 6/28/2008, you wrote: As Ray Nurse said yesterday (and I know he was quoting somebody else) "talking about music is like dancing about architecture". On Jun 28, 2008, at 8:20 PM, howard posner wrote: Professor Harold Hill wrote: all this 'quibble' about how to play music is interesting but pointless. True enough. There's nothing more pointless than musicians who want to know what they're doing. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
On the simplest level, this is about consonance and dissonce. Most people play French baroque music as consonance, but the extraordinary length of the ornaments, when played properly, make it dissonance. It is the most dissonant music in early music; which makes it, to my ear, both unusual and beautiful. I have no objection to anyone preferring to remove the dissonance, but I don't think it is a trivial or purely academic issue. There is also a connection, most readily seen in Charpentier, between the agreements and the figures. I recently heard a recording of Corelli's Christmas concerto. In one place, there are some sharp dissonances written only in the figures of the organ part. That is, there were no string parts sounding these notes. These notes were not played on the recording; for whatever reason, they were left out. It sounded perfectly beautiful. But I would never play it like that, unless I simply did not understand them. dt At 05:26 PM 6/28/2008, you wrote: >As Ray Nurse said yesterday (and I know he was quoting somebody else) >"talking about music is like dancing about architecture". > >On Jun 28, 2008, at 8:20 PM, howard posner wrote: > >>Professor Harold Hill wrote: >> >>>all this 'quibble' about how to play music is interesting but >>>pointless. >> >>True enough. There's nothing more pointless than musicians who want >>to know what they're doing. >>-- >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: French Style
As Ray Nurse said yesterday (and I know he was quoting somebody else) "talking about music is like dancing about architecture". On Jun 28, 2008, at 8:20 PM, howard posner wrote: Professor Harold Hill wrote: all this 'quibble' about how to play music is interesting but pointless. True enough. There's nothing more pointless than musicians who want to know what they're doing. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Professor Harold Hill wrote: > all this 'quibble' about how to play music is interesting but > pointless. True enough. There's nothing more pointless than musicians who want to know what they're doing. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
You know, DT's comments regarding french style are all well and good, but music is not a recipe that you whip together with several stylistic ingredients. The reason we play lutes that are historical is because 'style' emerges from reading through the music. One can quibble about appogiaturas and notes inegales but that is not what makes music beautiful. It is and alway will be, playing cleanly and bringing out the musical line. DD "damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: Gerwig was a great musician and if you were influenced by his sound, which was a beautiful gut sound, then you are very fortunate because you are now an extension of the lute tradition. Damian If merely sound is concerned, I do not hesitate to consent. Mathias > Yeah, cracks me up, too. And I decidedly say No. Early > recordings like > Gerwig, playing Bittner, et al shaped my notions and > prejudices > concerning French baroque lute music. Some modern > recordings > still > suffer from that unfortunate state of mind. > > I'm not religious on French style, and I'm still puzzled > by > David > Taylor's remarks about two different kinds of inegale. > Yet > even IMHO > there are some basic ideas which constitute French > baroque > lute style. > Not taking them into account equals eating soup with a > fork. > -- > Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
"damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Gerwig was a great musician and if you were influenced by his > sound, which was a beautiful gut sound, > then you are very fortunate because you are now an extension > of the lute tradition. > > Damian If merely sound is concerned, I do not hesitate to consent. Mathias > > Yeah, cracks me up, too. And I decidedly say No. Early > > recordings like > > Gerwig, playing Bittner, et al shaped my notions and > > prejudices > > concerning French baroque lute music. Some modern recordings > > still > > suffer from that unfortunate state of mind. > > > > I'm not religious on French style, and I'm still puzzled by > > David > > Taylor's remarks about two different kinds of inegale. Yet > > even IMHO > > there are some basic ideas which constitute French baroque > > lute style. > > Not taking them into account equals eating soup with a fork. > > -- > > Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Gerwig was a great musician and if you were influenced by his sound, which was a beautiful gut sound, then you are very fortunate because you are now an extension of the lute tradition. Damian Yeah, cracks me up, too. And I decidedly say No. Early recordings like Gerwig, playing Bittner, et al shaped my notions and prejudices concerning French baroque lute music. Some modern recordings still suffer from that unfortunate state of mind. I'm not religious on French style, and I'm still puzzled by David Taylor's remarks about two different kinds of inegale. Yet even IMHO there are some basic ideas which constitute French baroque lute style. Not taking them into account equals eating soup with a fork. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
> > Advocate - If a performer isn't doing all of these > > things "right," does it mean that he/she isn't doing > > French style? > asked him about playing Bach on a piano. His answer: if it is worth > doing it is worth doing badly. > That still cracks me up. Yeah, cracks me up, too. And I decidedly say No. Early recordings like Gerwig, playing Bittner, et al shaped my notions and prejudices concerning French baroque lute music. Some modern recordings still suffer from that unfortunate state of mind. I'm not religious on French style, and I'm still puzzled by David Taylor's remarks about two different kinds of inegale. Yet even IMHO there are some basic ideas which constitute French baroque lute style. Not taking them into account equals eating soup with a fork. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
On Jun 21, 2008, at 4:53 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > just to play Devil's > Advocate - If a performer isn't doing all of these > things "right," does it mean that he/she isn't doing > French style? When Donald Grout visited my college when I was a student, someone asked him about playing Bach on a piano. His answer: if it is worth doing it is worth doing badly. That still cracks me up. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Dear Jean-Marie,
I was rather thinking of villages as far remote as Austria, Poland,
German speaking countries, where booklets abounded with French lute
music, yet teachers were far.
Mathias
"Jean-Marie Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> Well, Mathias, in those days like now Paris was just one town in France and
> even if the court resided there most of the time, they were also itinerant
> and the "Provinces" had a cultural life of their own. Thee were "maîtres de
> luth" in all or most cathedral cities and the Gallot, for instance, were
> originally from Angers, and the de Gallot who played barosque guitar in
> Ireland was from Nantes, and Moulinié was from the south of France, and
> Julien Belin, in mid-16th century, came from my home town of Le Mans, where
> he was musically educated in the local cathedral school ("Psalette")... If
> you want to grasp how lots of musicians were constantly on the move, read the
> book by Annibal Gantez, "L'entretien des musiciens", Auxerre, 1643 ( download
> it there : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k57979f ). It is an essential
> account of musical life in the early 17th-century.
> People who wanted to study the lute could very well do so with one of thoses
> lute teachers who flourished for a while in provincial towns, far fom Paris
> indeed. Not everybody was to become a professional musician. Even if the
> capital worked like a sort of magnet, it did not attract, and chiefly did not
> keep, everybody, thank God !!!
>
> The so-called "French style" is, in my opinion, much more a matter of taste
> and culture (a much much wider subject to deal with) than technique...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jean-Marie
>
>
> === 20-06-2008 15:03:00 ===
>
> >
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> >> Its very easy to trick oneself into
> >> believing that if you play French-style elements A, B
> >> and C the way that writers X, Y, and Z have described
> >> them that you're actually playing the style. The old
> >> ones didn't learn French style from books, afterall.
> >
> >Well, they did, in a way. Not everyone lived in Paris, nor did everybody
> >employ French teachers--except people like the Robarts, perhaps.
> >Tablature was a means to convey tradition which is why almost everyone
> >had their booklets ready and copied from one another. That's how French
> >style reached even remote villages like Ebenthal (to name but one).
> >Their situation isn't _that_ different from ours, I'd say. We'll never
> >know if Monsieur Vieux Gaultier had raised his brows about the practical
> >results someone in Carinthia would realize from a copy of La Belle
> >Homicide. OTOH how do you know what Miles David would have said about
> >youngsters playing his music in an attempt to path their own ways?
> >--
> >Mathias
> >
> >
> >
> >To get on or off this list see list information at
> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >---
> >Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail.
> >Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.
> >
> >
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://poirierjm.free.fr
> 20-06-2008
> N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa
[LUTE] Re: French Style
The Journal with the article mentioned blow in it will be in the mail (with the Quarterly that Jim Stimson edited) next week. Nancy >Well, if we're talking about the article "French Lyricism in 17th >century pi=E8ces de luth," by yours truly, the conclusion is as follows: > >In order to understand the concept of French lyricism we need to know >what the French considered good melody and how it is present in their >airs. An understanding of French melody must proceed from an >understanding of how the rules of French versification were employed >by composers and how this resulted in irregular groupings of melodic >units or phrases in the setting of texts. The next step consists of >finding a correspondence between the vocal and instrumental models. >By isolating the ends of melodic units and their coincidence with >harmonic and technical divisions, it becomes possible to see how >instrumental melodies are related to sung melodies. Not >surprisingly, instrumental melodies share stylistic traits with the >airs . The inference is that players of instrumental music imagined >vocal models as a basis for these instrumental pieces -- a hypothesis >that not only explains the intrinsic quality of French instrumental >melodies but also supports the notion that technical indications >found in sources provide a basis for musical interpretation as well >as technical aid. > >On a related topic, my most recent article for JLSA should be out now >and is entitled "Performance Practice Technique for the French >Baroque Lute: An Examination of Introductory Avertissements from >Seventeenth-Century Sources." This includes translations and >commentaries from both Gaultier prints, and the Gallot, Perrine, and >Mouton publications. The article has a "side by side" orientation so >that the French and the English are both on the same page for easy >cross reference. I hope this piece will spark some healthy debate, >argumentation, and hopefully future research on this very important >topic among the readership. > >Best regards, >Jorge > > >On Jun 19, 2008, at 11:26 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: > > > > > Good question. The conclusion is that there is no conclusion based > > on scansion. French 'lyrisme' is not difficult to grasp but you > > need to have a working knowledge of the language. I feel that > > these pieces for lute were souvenirs of various 'f=EAtes' , parties, > > occasions etc.composed for the enjoyment of the patrons and > > benefactors of the luthistes. > > > > The continual inversion of the melody is something I found very > > difficult to get used to when I first read through this music more > > than 20 years ago, but now find just abstract enough to suit my > > taste perfectly. > > > > DT's appraisal is so =E0 propos that I am tempted to get in my rig > > and drive down to the Bay area and play for him, as I feel he would > > be a very good listener. > > > > DD > >> Just out of curiosity, have you read the article, and if so what is > >> the big surprise about pronunciation? > >> dt > >> > >> At 01:46 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: > >>> Nah, the duck is far more important, i.e. phrasing, syntax, melodic > >>> and harmonic rhythms etc. > >>> I.e. the drivetrain. Your list is chromeplating. > >>> RT > >>> - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" > >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > >>> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:38 PM > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style > >>> > >>> > >>>> All the things on this list are uniquely French; they give the > >>>> music > >>>> the character. > >>>> For French music, the truffle is more important than the duck. > >>>> A ground bass can have the exact same harmony in France as an > >>>> Italian > >>>> one, but the sauce is different. > >>>> dt > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> At 01:08 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: > >>>>> This is all truffle sauce, but it tells you nothing about the wild > >>>>> boar underneath. > >>>>> RT > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" > >>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:59 PM > >>>>>
[LUTE] Re: French Style
--- David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think the good Jazz transcriptions are pretty > good, and there are > lots of them, but would you want to live in an > imaginary world with > no Jazz recordings? > If you did, would you prefer the transcriptions to > no Jazz at all? > I'd prefer a world with attempted jazz. > > I think the issue for me, is that when I coach a > French baroque music > ensemble at music workshops, I find that the > students have not > studied the ornaments, they can't distinguish > between coule and > pointe, they don't know that there are two types of > inegal, one which > is not based on rhythm, and so on and so on. The > singers can't sing > trills. And I find the same thing in professional > recordings, where > the longest port de voix is at the end of the piece, > and the grace > notes are backwards, the arpeggios upside down, even > though the > ornament chart is in the front of the book. > This is all basic stuff. why don't they know it? I'm not disagreeing with you on the importance of investigating these matters, but, just to play Devil's Advocate - If a performer isn't doing all of these things "right," does it mean that he/she isn't doing French style? Does a blues guitarist have to play every blues guitar cliche to be playing blues guitar? If a tree falls in the woods and no is there to hear it, do we know what kind of inegales it produced??? ;-) > > I'm of the "read it and then throw it away, if you > like" school. > dt > > > dt > > > At 06:20 AM 6/20/2008, you wrote: > >David, et al, > > > > > > Here's a hypothetical: Imagine that a few > hundred > >years from now NO audio recordings of jazz have > >survived, just some good written descriptions, > "teach > >yourself to play jazz saxophone/guitar/tuba" method > >books, and a fair number of lead sheets. What kind > of > >jazz would our descendants really be playing > without > >ever having heard it? What would a 20th century > >jazzer, zapped into the future, think of it? (I > can > >imagine that he or she might find the future jazz > >stiff and academic, lacking imagination - maybe > even > >"all wrong." I doubt our jazzer would be very > >impressed.) > > > > The jazzers in the future would probably be > able > >to re-construct the gist of it, but would any of > the > >future folks ever gain the ease and suppleness of > >style - "the feel" - that a contemporary jazz > master > >intuitively understands and ineffably puts in > >practice? Maybe. But they'd be unlikely to get > there > >just by following the steps in something like a > "Play > >just like John Coltrane" book. > > > > That's us with the French style. While I > think > >David's points are valid and it is important to > >investigate all of these, there is a danger here. > >Style in any form of music is possible to decribe > in > >writing but utterly impossible to teach solely in > >writing. Its very easy to trick oneself into > >believing that if you play French-style elements A, > B > >and C the way that writers X, Y, and Z have > described > >them that you're actually playing the style. The > old > >ones didn't learn French style from books, > afterall. > > > > > >Chris - prepared for time travel. > > > >--- David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > That's a terrific question for which there is no > > > easy answer. > > > Here's a few basic starting points: > > > 1. It is different at different times--don't > > > conflate the different genres > > > 2. Inegal is the most misused and most > > > misunderstood. Read the > > > original sources, don't rely on secondary > sources. > > > At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, > and > > > distinguish > > > rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this > is > > > where it always goes wrong. > > > 3. Read up on the "gout" > > > 4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 > or > > > 3, some know half > > > a dozen, few know them all. > > > You need to know at least a dozen, to put an > > > arbitrary number on it. > > > 5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the > starting > > > note, the > > > repetition, and the escape. Most people don't > play > > > their trills > > > right, or play them "evenly". > > > 6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the > first > > > note of the > > > trill as a starting point--the grace note is the > > > long note, not the > > > other way around > > > 7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and > > > final cadential > > > trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often > at > > > the end, not the > > > other way around. > > > 8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the > agreements, > > > especially for > > > the port de voix, the ornament which is most > often > > > performed > > > backwards (enough here for a separate post) > > > 9. Also read the following which describes the > > > actual ornaments used > > > in Rameau's time: > > > > > > Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina > > > Singing style at the
[LUTE] Re: French Style
On Jun 20, 2008, at 1:56 PM, David Tayler wrote: > This is all basic stuff. why don't they know it? I'd like your "take" on this loaded question: why should they? DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_literature_of_the_17th_century A good overview. RT - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Doc Rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style You should start with http://www.amazon.fr/Cyrano-Bergerac-Edmond-Rostand/dp/2266152173/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213986985&sr=1-3 or http://www.amazon.fr/Fleurs-du-Mal-Charles-Baudelaire/dp/2253007102/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213987081&sr=1-2 you should also, at you own risk, try http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvres-compl%C3%A8tes-1-Cl%C3%A9ment-Marot/dp/2080712314/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213987121&sr=1-1 althoughm the 1st one warned: it is a crime to allow Paris to get accustomed to such bad poets. RT - Original Message - From: "Doc Rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 2:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style David, would you care to give us a reading list of what you consider to be the most important works for learning about the interpretation of this music? Doc On Jun 20, 2008, at 7:56 PM, David Tayler wrote: I think the good Jazz transcriptions are pretty good, and there are lots of them, but would you want to live in an imaginary world with no Jazz recordings? If you did, would you prefer the transcriptions to no Jazz at all? In the case of the brouderie sources, we have essentially transcriptions, we can ignore them, of course. After all, we have no proof that they are valid, other than the fact that someone really wanted to write them down. And the people who wrote them down were often learned, knowledgeable and famous composers. I think the issue for me, is that when I coach a French baroque music ensemble at music workshops, I find that the students have not studied the ornaments, they can't distinguish between coule and pointe, they don't know that there are two types of inegal, one which is not based on rhythm, and so on and so on. The singers can't sing trills. And I find the same thing in professional recordings, where the longest port de voix is at the end of the piece, and the grace notes are backwards, the arpeggios upside down, even though the ornament chart is in the front of the book. This is all basic stuff. why don't they know it? I'm not down on the performers, I'm just puzzled Of course lute players know much more about ornamentation than the majority of early music performers, and this is a good thing. But for example, the article I cited, I have never met someone who has read it. I'm of the "read it and then throw it away, if you like" school. dt dt At 06:20 AM 6/20/2008, you wrote: David, et al, Here's a hypothetical: Imagine that a few hundred years from now NO audio recordings of jazz have survived, just some good written descriptions, "teach yourself to play jazz saxophone/guitar/tuba" method books, and a fair number of lead sheets. What kind of jazz would our descendants really be playing without ever having heard it? What would a 20th century jazzer, zapped into the future, think of it? (I can imagine that he or she might find the future jazz stiff and academic, lacking imagination - maybe even "all wrong." I doubt our jazzer would be very impressed.) The jazzers in the future would probably be able to re-construct the gist of it, but would any of the future folks ever gain the ease and suppleness of style - "the feel" - that a contemporary jazz master intuitively understands and ineffably puts in practice? Maybe. But they'd be unlikely to get there just by following the steps in something like a "Play just like John Coltrane" book. That's us with the French style. While I think David's points are valid and it is important to investigate all of these, there is a danger here. Style in any form of music is possible to decribe in writing but utterly impossible to teach solely in writing. Its very easy to trick oneself into believing that if you play French-style elements A, B and C the way that writers X, Y, and Z have described them that you're actually playing the style. The old ones didn't learn French style from books, afterall. Chris - prepared for time travel. --- David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. Here's a few basic starting points: 1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different genres 2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. At a minimum,
[LUTE] Re: French Style
You should start with http://www.amazon.fr/Cyrano-Bergerac-Edmond-Rostand/dp/2266152173/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213986985&sr=1-3 or http://www.amazon.fr/Fleurs-du-Mal-Charles-Baudelaire/dp/2253007102/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213987081&sr=1-2 you should also, at you own risk, try http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvres-compl%C3%A8tes-1-Cl%C3%A9ment-Marot/dp/2080712314/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213987121&sr=1-1 althoughm the 1st one warned: it is a crime to allow Paris to get accustomed to such bad poets. RT - Original Message - From: "Doc Rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 2:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style David, would you care to give us a reading list of what you consider to be the most important works for learning about the interpretation of this music? Doc On Jun 20, 2008, at 7:56 PM, David Tayler wrote: I think the good Jazz transcriptions are pretty good, and there are lots of them, but would you want to live in an imaginary world with no Jazz recordings? If you did, would you prefer the transcriptions to no Jazz at all? In the case of the brouderie sources, we have essentially transcriptions, we can ignore them, of course. After all, we have no proof that they are valid, other than the fact that someone really wanted to write them down. And the people who wrote them down were often learned, knowledgeable and famous composers. I think the issue for me, is that when I coach a French baroque music ensemble at music workshops, I find that the students have not studied the ornaments, they can't distinguish between coule and pointe, they don't know that there are two types of inegal, one which is not based on rhythm, and so on and so on. The singers can't sing trills. And I find the same thing in professional recordings, where the longest port de voix is at the end of the piece, and the grace notes are backwards, the arpeggios upside down, even though the ornament chart is in the front of the book. This is all basic stuff. why don't they know it? I'm not down on the performers, I'm just puzzled Of course lute players know much more about ornamentation than the majority of early music performers, and this is a good thing. But for example, the article I cited, I have never met someone who has read it. I'm of the "read it and then throw it away, if you like" school. dt dt At 06:20 AM 6/20/2008, you wrote: David, et al, Here's a hypothetical: Imagine that a few hundred years from now NO audio recordings of jazz have survived, just some good written descriptions, "teach yourself to play jazz saxophone/guitar/tuba" method books, and a fair number of lead sheets. What kind of jazz would our descendants really be playing without ever having heard it? What would a 20th century jazzer, zapped into the future, think of it? (I can imagine that he or she might find the future jazz stiff and academic, lacking imagination - maybe even "all wrong." I doubt our jazzer would be very impressed.) The jazzers in the future would probably be able to re-construct the gist of it, but would any of the future folks ever gain the ease and suppleness of style - "the feel" - that a contemporary jazz master intuitively understands and ineffably puts in practice? Maybe. But they'd be unlikely to get there just by following the steps in something like a "Play just like John Coltrane" book. That's us with the French style. While I think David's points are valid and it is important to investigate all of these, there is a danger here. Style in any form of music is possible to decribe in writing but utterly impossible to teach solely in writing. Its very easy to trick oneself into believing that if you play French-style elements A, B and C the way that writers X, Y, and Z have described them that you're actually playing the style. The old ones didn't learn French style from books, afterall. Chris - prepared for time travel. --- David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. Here's a few basic starting points: 1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different genres 2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and distinguish rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is where it always goes wrong. 3. Read up on the "gout" 4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or 3, some know half a dozen, few know them all. You need to know at least a dozen, to put an arbitrary number on it. 5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting note, the
[LUTE] Re: French Style
David, would you care to give us a reading list of what you consider to be the most important works for learning about the interpretation of this music? Doc On Jun 20, 2008, at 7:56 PM, David Tayler wrote: I think the good Jazz transcriptions are pretty good, and there are lots of them, but would you want to live in an imaginary world with no Jazz recordings? If you did, would you prefer the transcriptions to no Jazz at all? In the case of the brouderie sources, we have essentially transcriptions, we can ignore them, of course. After all, we have no proof that they are valid, other than the fact that someone really wanted to write them down. And the people who wrote them down were often learned, knowledgeable and famous composers. I think the issue for me, is that when I coach a French baroque music ensemble at music workshops, I find that the students have not studied the ornaments, they can't distinguish between coule and pointe, they don't know that there are two types of inegal, one which is not based on rhythm, and so on and so on. The singers can't sing trills. And I find the same thing in professional recordings, where the longest port de voix is at the end of the piece, and the grace notes are backwards, the arpeggios upside down, even though the ornament chart is in the front of the book. This is all basic stuff. why don't they know it? I'm not down on the performers, I'm just puzzled Of course lute players know much more about ornamentation than the majority of early music performers, and this is a good thing. But for example, the article I cited, I have never met someone who has read it. I'm of the "read it and then throw it away, if you like" school. dt dt At 06:20 AM 6/20/2008, you wrote: David, et al, Here's a hypothetical: Imagine that a few hundred years from now NO audio recordings of jazz have survived, just some good written descriptions, "teach yourself to play jazz saxophone/guitar/tuba" method books, and a fair number of lead sheets. What kind of jazz would our descendants really be playing without ever having heard it? What would a 20th century jazzer, zapped into the future, think of it? (I can imagine that he or she might find the future jazz stiff and academic, lacking imagination - maybe even "all wrong." I doubt our jazzer would be very impressed.) The jazzers in the future would probably be able to re-construct the gist of it, but would any of the future folks ever gain the ease and suppleness of style - "the feel" - that a contemporary jazz master intuitively understands and ineffably puts in practice? Maybe. But they'd be unlikely to get there just by following the steps in something like a "Play just like John Coltrane" book. That's us with the French style. While I think David's points are valid and it is important to investigate all of these, there is a danger here. Style in any form of music is possible to decribe in writing but utterly impossible to teach solely in writing. Its very easy to trick oneself into believing that if you play French-style elements A, B and C the way that writers X, Y, and Z have described them that you're actually playing the style. The old ones didn't learn French style from books, afterall. Chris - prepared for time travel. --- David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. Here's a few basic starting points: 1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different genres 2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and distinguish rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is where it always goes wrong. 3. Read up on the "gout" 4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or 3, some know half a dozen, few know them all. You need to know at least a dozen, to put an arbitrary number on it. 5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting note, the repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play their trills right, or play them "evenly". 6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first note of the trill as a starting point--the grace note is the long note, not the other way around 7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and final cadential trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at the end, not the other way around. 8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements, especially for the port de voix, the ornament which is most often performed backwards (enough here for a separate post) 9. Also read the following which describes the actual ornaments used in Rameau's time: Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. (Paris: Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. See RILM 1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau 10. You are right about the language, lots to investigate there. 11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasu
[LUTE] Re: French Style
I think the good Jazz transcriptions are pretty good, and there are lots of them, but would you want to live in an imaginary world with no Jazz recordings? If you did, would you prefer the transcriptions to no Jazz at all? In the case of the brouderie sources, we have essentially transcriptions, we can ignore them, of course. After all, we have no proof that they are valid, other than the fact that someone really wanted to write them down. And the people who wrote them down were often learned, knowledgeable and famous composers. I think the issue for me, is that when I coach a French baroque music ensemble at music workshops, I find that the students have not studied the ornaments, they can't distinguish between coule and pointe, they don't know that there are two types of inegal, one which is not based on rhythm, and so on and so on. The singers can't sing trills. And I find the same thing in professional recordings, where the longest port de voix is at the end of the piece, and the grace notes are backwards, the arpeggios upside down, even though the ornament chart is in the front of the book. This is all basic stuff. why don't they know it? I'm not down on the performers, I'm just puzzled Of course lute players know much more about ornamentation than the majority of early music performers, and this is a good thing. But for example, the article I cited, I have never met someone who has read it. I'm of the "read it and then throw it away, if you like" school. dt dt At 06:20 AM 6/20/2008, you wrote: >David, et al, > > > Here's a hypothetical: Imagine that a few hundred >years from now NO audio recordings of jazz have >survived, just some good written descriptions, "teach >yourself to play jazz saxophone/guitar/tuba" method >books, and a fair number of lead sheets. What kind of >jazz would our descendants really be playing without >ever having heard it? What would a 20th century >jazzer, zapped into the future, think of it? (I can >imagine that he or she might find the future jazz >stiff and academic, lacking imagination - maybe even >"all wrong." I doubt our jazzer would be very >impressed.) > > The jazzers in the future would probably be able >to re-construct the gist of it, but would any of the >future folks ever gain the ease and suppleness of >style - "the feel" - that a contemporary jazz master >intuitively understands and ineffably puts in >practice? Maybe. But they'd be unlikely to get there >just by following the steps in something like a "Play >just like John Coltrane" book. > > That's us with the French style. While I think >David's points are valid and it is important to >investigate all of these, there is a danger here. >Style in any form of music is possible to decribe in >writing but utterly impossible to teach solely in >writing. Its very easy to trick oneself into >believing that if you play French-style elements A, B >and C the way that writers X, Y, and Z have described >them that you're actually playing the style. The old >ones didn't learn French style from books, afterall. > > >Chris - prepared for time travel. > >--- David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > That's a terrific question for which there is no > > easy answer. > > Here's a few basic starting points: > > 1. It is different at different times--don't > > conflate the different genres > > 2. Inegal is the most misused and most > > misunderstood. Read the > > original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. > > At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and > > distinguish > > rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is > > where it always goes wrong. > > 3. Read up on the "gout" > > 4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or > > 3, some know half > > a dozen, few know them all. > > You need to know at least a dozen, to put an > > arbitrary number on it. > > 5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting > > note, the > > repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play > > their trills > > right, or play them "evenly". > > 6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first > > note of the > > trill as a starting point--the grace note is the > > long note, not the > > other way around > > 7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and > > final cadential > > trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at > > the end, not the > > other way around. > > 8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements, > > especially for > > the port de voix, the ornament which is most often > > performed > > backwards (enough here for a separate post) > > 9. Also read the following which describes the > > actual ornaments used > > in Rameau's time: > > > > Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina > > Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. > > (Paris: > > Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. > > See RILM > > 1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau > > > > 10. You are right about the language, lots to > > investigate ther
[LUTE] Re: French Style
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Its very easy to trick oneself into > believing that if you play French-style elements A, B > and C the way that writers X, Y, and Z have described > them that you're actually playing the style. The old > ones didn't learn French style from books, afterall. Well, they did, in a way. Not everyone lived in Paris, nor did everybody employ French teachers--except people like the Robarts, perhaps. Tablature was a means to convey tradition which is why almost everyone had their booklets ready and copied from one another. That's how French style reached even remote villages like Ebenthal (to name but one). Their situation isn't _that_ different from ours, I'd say. We'll never know if Monsieur Vieux Gaultier had raised his brows about the practical results someone in Carinthia would realize from a copy of La Belle Homicide. OTOH how do you know what Miles David would have said about youngsters playing his music in an attempt to path their own ways? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
David, et al, Here's a hypothetical: Imagine that a few hundred years from now NO audio recordings of jazz have survived, just some good written descriptions, "teach yourself to play jazz saxophone/guitar/tuba" method books, and a fair number of lead sheets. What kind of jazz would our descendants really be playing without ever having heard it? What would a 20th century jazzer, zapped into the future, think of it? (I can imagine that he or she might find the future jazz stiff and academic, lacking imagination - maybe even "all wrong." I doubt our jazzer would be very impressed.) The jazzers in the future would probably be able to re-construct the gist of it, but would any of the future folks ever gain the ease and suppleness of style - "the feel" - that a contemporary jazz master intuitively understands and ineffably puts in practice? Maybe. But they'd be unlikely to get there just by following the steps in something like a "Play just like John Coltrane" book. That's us with the French style. While I think David's points are valid and it is important to investigate all of these, there is a danger here. Style in any form of music is possible to decribe in writing but utterly impossible to teach solely in writing. Its very easy to trick oneself into believing that if you play French-style elements A, B and C the way that writers X, Y, and Z have described them that you're actually playing the style. The old ones didn't learn French style from books, afterall. Chris - prepared for time travel. --- David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That's a terrific question for which there is no > easy answer. > Here's a few basic starting points: > 1. It is different at different times--don't > conflate the different genres > 2. Inegal is the most misused and most > misunderstood. Read the > original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. > At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and > distinguish > rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is > where it always goes wrong. > 3. Read up on the "gout" > 4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or > 3, some know half > a dozen, few know them all. > You need to know at least a dozen, to put an > arbitrary number on it. > 5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting > note, the > repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play > their trills > right, or play them "evenly". > 6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first > note of the > trill as a starting point--the grace note is the > long note, not the > other way around > 7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and > final cadential > trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at > the end, not the > other way around. > 8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements, > especially for > the port de voix, the ornament which is most often > performed > backwards (enough here for a separate post) > 9. Also read the following which describes the > actual ornaments used > in Rameau's time: > > Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina > Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. > (Paris: > Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. > See RILM > 1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau > > 10. You are right about the language, lots to > investigate there. > 11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasured > preludes for > harpsichord, then arrange them for lute. A new take > on stile brise. > > dt > > > At 12:35 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: > >I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the > "French style" of > >Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile > brise, notes inegall > >etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient > explanations to > >convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's > more to it than > >that. Are there, for example, considerations in > the French style > >that have to do with the cadences and general kinds > of rhythms of the > >French language itself? What things does one need > to understand / > >appreciate in order to make effectively rhetorical > music in the > >French style? > > > >Anybody got any ideas on this? > > > >Best, > > > >David Rastall > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Well, if we're talking about the article "French Lyricism in 17th century pi=E8ces de luth," by yours truly, the conclusion is as follows: In order to understand the concept of French lyricism we need to know what the French considered good melody and how it is present in their airs. An understanding of French melody must proceed from an understanding of how the rules of French versification were employed by composers and how this resulted in irregular groupings of melodic units or phrases in the setting of texts. The next step consists of finding a correspondence between the vocal and instrumental models. By isolating the ends of melodic units and their coincidence with harmonic and technical divisions, it becomes possible to see how instrumental melodies are related to sung melodies. Not surprisingly, instrumental melodies share stylistic traits with the airs . The inference is that players of instrumental music imagined vocal models as a basis for these instrumental pieces -- a hypothesis that not only explains the intrinsic quality of French instrumental melodies but also supports the notion that technical indications found in sources provide a basis for musical interpretation as well as technical aid. On a related topic, my most recent article for JLSA should be out now and is entitled "Performance Practice Technique for the French Baroque Lute: An Examination of Introductory Avertissements from Seventeenth-Century Sources." This includes translations and commentaries from both Gaultier prints, and the Gallot, Perrine, and Mouton publications. The article has a "side by side" orientation so that the French and the English are both on the same page for easy cross reference. I hope this piece will spark some healthy debate, argumentation, and hopefully future research on this very important topic among the readership. Best regards, Jorge On Jun 19, 2008, at 11:26 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: > > Good question. The conclusion is that there is no conclusion based > on scansion. French 'lyrisme' is not difficult to grasp but you > need to have a working knowledge of the language. I feel that > these pieces for lute were souvenirs of various 'f=EAtes' , parties, > occasions etc.composed for the enjoyment of the patrons and > benefactors of the luthistes. > > The continual inversion of the melody is something I found very > difficult to get used to when I first read through this music more > than 20 years ago, but now find just abstract enough to suit my > taste perfectly. > > DT's appraisal is so =E0 propos that I am tempted to get in my rig > and drive down to the Bay area and play for him, as I feel he would > be a very good listener. > > DD >> Just out of curiosity, have you read the article, and if so what is >> the big surprise about pronunciation? >> dt >> >> At 01:46 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: >>> Nah, the duck is far more important, i.e. phrasing, syntax, melodic >>> and harmonic rhythms etc. >>> I.e. the drivetrain. Your list is chromeplating. >>> RT >>> - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" >>> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:38 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style >>> >>> >>>> All the things on this list are uniquely French; they give the >>>> music >>>> the character. >>>> For French music, the truffle is more important than the duck. >>>> A ground bass can have the exact same harmony in France as an >>>> Italian >>>> one, but the sauce is different. >>>> dt >>>> >>>> >>>> At 01:08 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: >>>>> This is all truffle sauce, but it tells you nothing about the wild >>>>> boar underneath. >>>>> RT >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" >>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" >>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:59 PM >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. >>>>>> Here's a few basic starting points: >>>>>> 1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the >>>>>> different genres >>>>>> 2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the >>>>>> ori
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Le 19 juin 08 à 23:59, Mathias Rösel a écrit : I for one learned a lot by intabulating harpsichord music by Nicolas Lebegue (1637, 1st print of harpsichord music in France). To me, French baroque tunes in lute or harpsichord music are deeply affiliated to oratorical singing. There's a gesture to be found in every motif. As for lute music in particular, I hasten to add that George Torres composition on French melodies and their relation to French contemporaneous poetry was enlightening to me, as well as Catherine Liddell's booklet to her Gallot CD (La Belle Voilée). My perception of what French style actually is, was confused by ancient recordings of our forefathers of blessed memory. They used to play French lute music as it consisted but of arpeggios, more or less. Yet I've come to insist that there _are_ parts, that there is imitation and that this must must be played with the strongest possible distinction. Rather slow down than play muddily. I think frequently in imitative learning the learner perceives one or two aspects of what they are trying to acquire, and a form of caricature develops. This is probably a normal learning pattern. We see this in actors trying to adopt a foreign accent, and even children learning their own language. We can see a similar process of caricature in the RH positions adopted by lutists over the last 80 years or so, as they latched on to, and generalized, a position that they had seen in certain iconography. When a tradition has been lost it is almost inevitable that performers will slip into a sort of easy pastiche, until a new tradition can develop, which hopefully can surpass this tendency. The choice of isntrument and strings can go along way to making the playing less muddy. Comparing a very large-bodied exuberant Durvie Maler in synthetics and metal wounds, compared to the smaller bodied SG Warwick in gut with new loaded strings, shows a far greater rhetorical clarity in the second (I am not putting that down to Maler/ Warwick, I don't think there would be any noticeable difference between the two, if they are of comparable size, structure, and with the same wood). Interestingly, it is not that there is lack of sustain in my lute, but there is sustain and clarity. This is what Jakob Lindberg says about his Rauwolf, and perhaps Stephen has benefitted from working on that model and hearing how it speaks. Anthony PS My questions about tuning my Baroque lute to 6th comma meantone, was not in anyway theoretical, just purely practical. I had no time to think about resetting frets, or to wonder about what the ideal slightly off equal temperament, or whatever, might work best for this music. My lute arrived with unequal fretting, and I could not escape from my other obligations, for sufficient time to deal with the question in any theoretically correct way. There is a similar problem in that my lute is strung for 415Hz, while I actually would have like it to be at 392Hz, not just for saving top strings. Perhaps most lutists ask this from Stephen, and he probably forgot what I actually told him, or else he feels the instrument would just work better at 415. However, the cost of changing most of those expensive gut strings, will make me hesitate. I don't think I can just tune down. I could perhaps shift my loaded strings an increment towards the top, 11c to 10c (etc), but I have not had time to see whether a change from 415 to 392 makes this sort of shift possible. Meanwhile the sound is very nice at 415, and many players do use that, but more French Baroque lutists are tending towards the lower diapason, I believe, and not just for gut. Anthony Mathias "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: Nah, the duck is far more important, i.e. phrasing, syntax, melodic and harmonic rhythms etc. I.e. the drivetrain. Your list is chromeplating. RT - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style All the things on this list are uniquely French; they give the music the character. For French music, the truffle is more important than the duck. A ground bass can have the exact same harmony in France as an Italian one, but the sauce is different. dt At 01:08 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: This is all truffle sauce, but it tells you nothing about the wild boar underneath. RT - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. Here's a few basic starting points: 1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different genres 2. Inegal is the most misused and most
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Come on down and we will barbecue trout with fresh rosemary. Talk about gout! dt At 08:26 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: Good question. The conclusion is that there is no conclusion based on scansion. French 'lyrisme' is not difficult to grasp but you need to have a working knowledge of the language. I feel that these pieces for lute were souvenirs of various 'fêtes' , parties, occasions etc.composed for the enjoyment of the patrons and benefactors of the luthistes. The continual inversion of the melody is something I found very difficult to get used to when I first read through this music more than 20 years ago, but now find just abstract enough to suit my taste perfectly. DT's appraisal is so à propos that I am tempted to get in my rig and drive down to the Bay area and play for him, as I feel he would be a very good listener. DD Just out of curiosity, have you read the article, and if so what is the big surprise about pronunciation? dt At 01:46 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: Nah, the duck is far more important, i.e. phrasing, syntax, melodic and harmonic rhythms etc. I.e. the drivetrain. Your list is chromeplating. RT - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style All the things on this list are uniquely French; they give the music the character. For French music, the truffle is more important than the duck. A ground bass can have the exact same harmony in France as an Italian one, but the sauce is different. dt At 01:08 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: This is all truffle sauce, but it tells you nothing about the wild boar underneath. RT - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. Here's a few basic starting points: 1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different genres 2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and distinguish rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is where it always goes wrong. 3. Read up on the "gout" 4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or 3, some know half a dozen, few know them all. You need to know at least a dozen, to put an arbitrary number on it. 5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting note, the repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play their trills right, or play them "evenly". 6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first note of the trill as a starting point--the grace note is the long note, not the other way around 7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and final cadential trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at the end, not the other way around. 8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements, especially for the port de voix, the ornament which is most often performed backwards (enough here for a separate post) 9. Also read the following which describes the actual ornaments used in Rameau's time: Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. (Paris: Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. See RILM 1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau 10. You are right about the language, lots to investigate there. 11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasured preludes for harpsichord, then arrange them for lute. A new take on stile brise. dt At 12:35 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient explanations to convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's more to it than that. Are there, for example, considerations in the French style that have to do with the cadences and general kinds of rhythms of the French language itself? What things does one need to understand / appreciate in order to make effectively rhetorical music in the French style? Anybody got any ideas on this? Best, David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Good question. The conclusion is that there is no conclusion based on scansion. French 'lyrisme' is not difficult to grasp but you need to have a working knowledge of the language. I feel that these pieces for lute were souvenirs of various 'fêtes' , parties, occasions etc.composed for the enjoyment of the patrons and benefactors of the luthistes. The continual inversion of the melody is something I found very difficult to get used to when I first read through this music more than 20 years ago, but now find just abstract enough to suit my taste perfectly. DT's appraisal is so à propos that I am tempted to get in my rig and drive down to the Bay area and play for him, as I feel he would be a very good listener. DD Just out of curiosity, have you read the article, and if so what is the big surprise about pronunciation? dt At 01:46 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: Nah, the duck is far more important, i.e. phrasing, syntax, melodic and harmonic rhythms etc. I.e. the drivetrain. Your list is chromeplating. RT - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style All the things on this list are uniquely French; they give the music the character. For French music, the truffle is more important than the duck. A ground bass can have the exact same harmony in France as an Italian one, but the sauce is different. dt At 01:08 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: This is all truffle sauce, but it tells you nothing about the wild boar underneath. RT - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. Here's a few basic starting points: 1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different genres 2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and distinguish rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is where it always goes wrong. 3. Read up on the "gout" 4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or 3, some know half a dozen, few know them all. You need to know at least a dozen, to put an arbitrary number on it. 5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting note, the repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play their trills right, or play them "evenly". 6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first note of the trill as a starting point--the grace note is the long note, not the other way around 7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and final cadential trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at the end, not the other way around. 8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements, especially for the port de voix, the ornament which is most often performed backwards (enough here for a separate post) 9. Also read the following which describes the actual ornaments used in Rameau's time: Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. (Paris: Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. See RILM 1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau 10. You are right about the language, lots to investigate there. 11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasured preludes for harpsichord, then arrange them for lute. A new take on stile brise. dt At 12:35 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient explanations to convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's more to it than that. Are there, for example, considerations in the French style that have to do with the cadences and general kinds of rhythms of the French language itself? What things does one need to understand / appreciate in order to make effectively rhetorical music in the French style? Anybody got any ideas on this? Best, David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Just out of curiosity, have you read the article, and if so what is the big surprise about pronunciation? dt At 01:46 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: >Nah, the duck is far more important, i.e. phrasing, syntax, melodic >and harmonic rhythms etc. >I.e. the drivetrain. Your list is chromeplating. >RT >- Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" >Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:38 PM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style > > >>All the things on this list are uniquely French; they give the music >>the character. >>For French music, the truffle is more important than the duck. >>A ground bass can have the exact same harmony in France as an Italian >>one, but the sauce is different. >>dt >> >> >>At 01:08 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: >>>This is all truffle sauce, but it tells you nothing about the wild >>>boar underneath. >>>RT >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" >>>Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:59 PM >>>Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style >>> >>> >>>>That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. >>>>Here's a few basic starting points: >>>>1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different genres >>>>2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the >>>>original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. >>>>At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and distinguish >>>>rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is where it always >>>>goes wrong. >>>>3. Read up on the "gout" >>>>4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or 3, some know half >>>>a dozen, few know them all. >>>>You need to know at least a dozen, to put an arbitrary number on it. >>>>5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting note, the >>>>repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play their trills >>>>right, or play them "evenly". >>>>6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first note of the >>>>trill as a starting point--the grace note is the long note, not the >>>>other way around >>>>7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and final cadential >>>>trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at the end, not the >>>>other way around. >>>>8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements, especially for >>>>the port de voix, the ornament which is most often performed >>>>backwards (enough here for a separate post) >>>>9. Also read the following which describes the actual ornaments used >>>>in Rameau's time: >>>> >>>>Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina >>>>Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. (Paris: >>>>Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. See RILM >>>>1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau >>>> >>>>10. You are right about the language, lots to investigate there. >>>>11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasured preludes for >>>>harpsichord, then arrange them for lute. A new take on stile brise. >>>> >>>>dt >>>> >>>> >>>>At 12:35 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: >>>>>I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of >>>>>Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall >>>>>etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient explanations to >>>>>convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's more to it than >>>>>that. Are there, for example, considerations in the French style >>>>>that have to do with the cadences and general kinds of rhythms of the >>>>>French language itself? What things does one need to understand / >>>>>appreciate in order to make effectively rhetorical music in the >>>>>French style? >>>>> >>>>>Anybody got any ideas on this? >>>>> >>>>>Best, >>>>> >>>>>David Rastall >>>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>> >>>>>To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>__ >>>D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" >>> http://www.doteasy.com >> >> > > > > >__ >D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" > http://www.doteasy.com >
[LUTE] Re: French Style
I for one learned a lot by intabulating harpsichord music by Nicolas Lebegue (1637, 1st print of harpsichord music in France). To me, French baroque tunes in lute or harpsichord music are deeply affiliated to oratorical singing. There's a gesture to be found in every motif. As for lute music in particular, I hasten to add that George Torres composition on French melodies and their relation to French contemporaneous poetry was enlightening to me, as well as Catherine Liddell's booklet to her Gallot CD (La Belle Voilée). My perception of what French style actually is, was confused by ancient recordings of our forefathers of blessed memory. They used to play French lute music as it consisted but of arpeggios, more or less. Yet I've come to insist that there _are_ parts, that there is imitation and that this must must be played with the strongest possible distinction. Rather slow down than play muddily. Mathias "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Nah, the duck is far more important, i.e. phrasing, syntax, melodic and > harmonic rhythms etc. > I.e. the drivetrain. Your list is chromeplating. > RT > - Original Message - > From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:38 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style > > > > All the things on this list are uniquely French; they give the music > > the character. > > For French music, the truffle is more important than the duck. > > A ground bass can have the exact same harmony in France as an Italian > > one, but the sauce is different. > > dt > > > > > > At 01:08 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: > >>This is all truffle sauce, but it tells you nothing about the wild > >>boar underneath. > >>RT > >> > >> > >>- Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > >>Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:59 PM > >>Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style > >> > >> > >>>That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. > >>>Here's a few basic starting points: > >>>1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different > >>>genres > >>>2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the > >>>original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. > >>>At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and distinguish > >>>rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is where it always goes > >>>wrong. > >>>3. Read up on the "gout" > >>>4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or 3, some know half > >>>a dozen, few know them all. > >>>You need to know at least a dozen, to put an arbitrary number on it. > >>>5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting note, the > >>>repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play their trills > >>>right, or play them "evenly". > >>>6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first note of the > >>>trill as a starting point--the grace note is the long note, not the > >>>other way around > >>>7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and final cadential > >>>trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at the end, not the > >>>other way around. > >>>8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements, especially for > >>>the port de voix, the ornament which is most often performed > >>>backwards (enough here for a separate post) > >>>9. Also read the following which describes the actual ornaments used > >>>in Rameau's time: > >>> > >>>Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina > >>>Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. (Paris: > >>>Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. See RILM > >>>1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau > >>> > >>>10. You are right about the language, lots to investigate there. > >>>11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasured preludes for > >>>harpsichord, then arrange them for lute. A new take on stile brise. > >>> > >>>dt > >>> > >>> > >>>At 12:35 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: > >>>>I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of > >>>>Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall > >>>>etc. Those are obvious,
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Nah, the duck is far more important, i.e. phrasing, syntax, melodic and harmonic rhythms etc. I.e. the drivetrain. Your list is chromeplating. RT - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:38 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style All the things on this list are uniquely French; they give the music the character. For French music, the truffle is more important than the duck. A ground bass can have the exact same harmony in France as an Italian one, but the sauce is different. dt At 01:08 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: This is all truffle sauce, but it tells you nothing about the wild boar underneath. RT - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. Here's a few basic starting points: 1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different genres 2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and distinguish rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is where it always goes wrong. 3. Read up on the "gout" 4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or 3, some know half a dozen, few know them all. You need to know at least a dozen, to put an arbitrary number on it. 5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting note, the repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play their trills right, or play them "evenly". 6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first note of the trill as a starting point--the grace note is the long note, not the other way around 7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and final cadential trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at the end, not the other way around. 8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements, especially for the port de voix, the ornament which is most often performed backwards (enough here for a separate post) 9. Also read the following which describes the actual ornaments used in Rameau's time: Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. (Paris: Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. See RILM 1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau 10. You are right about the language, lots to investigate there. 11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasured preludes for harpsichord, then arrange them for lute. A new take on stile brise. dt At 12:35 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient explanations to convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's more to it than that. Are there, for example, considerations in the French style that have to do with the cadences and general kinds of rhythms of the French language itself? What things does one need to understand / appreciate in order to make effectively rhetorical music in the French style? Anybody got any ideas on this? Best, David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Of course. In his "Italian" works, such as this. RT - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:40 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style Telemann uses sequential development all the time http://www.vimeo.com/706605 French music uses sequential development as well, though it is used differently than Vivaldi. dt At 01:20 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: Telemann's eschewing of sequential development was alone sufficient for him to claim to be an adherent of the French style. Needless to say- aside from this there was nothing French in Telemann's thoroughly Germanic musical character. But this would indicate how much of a determinant that aspect was to an 18th century set of ears. RT - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ; "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] French Style I would say- mainly the absense of sequential development. RT From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient explanations to convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's more to it than that. David Rastall To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Telemann uses sequential development all the time http://www.vimeo.com/706605 French music uses sequential development as well, though it is used differently than Vivaldi. dt At 01:20 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: >Telemann's eschewing of sequential development was alone sufficient >for him to claim to be an adherent of the French style. >Needless to say- aside from this there was nothing French in >Telemann's thoroughly Germanic musical character. But this would >indicate how much of a determinant that aspect was to an 18th >century set of ears. >RT >- Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: ; "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:44 PM >Subject: Re: [LUTE] French Style > > >>I would say- mainly the absense of sequential development. >>RT >> >>From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" >>>of Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes >>>inegall etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient >>>explanations to convey the French Baroque. It seems to me >>>there's more to it than that. David Rastall > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
All the things on this list are uniquely French; they give the music the character. For French music, the truffle is more important than the duck. A ground bass can have the exact same harmony in France as an Italian one, but the sauce is different. dt At 01:08 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: >This is all truffle sauce, but it tells you nothing about the wild >boar underneath. >RT > > >- Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" >Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:59 PM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style > > >>That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. >>Here's a few basic starting points: >>1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different genres >>2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the >>original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. >>At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and distinguish >>rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is where it always goes wrong. >>3. Read up on the "gout" >>4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or 3, some know half >>a dozen, few know them all. >>You need to know at least a dozen, to put an arbitrary number on it. >>5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting note, the >>repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play their trills >>right, or play them "evenly". >>6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first note of the >>trill as a starting point--the grace note is the long note, not the >>other way around >>7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and final cadential >>trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at the end, not the >>other way around. >>8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements, especially for >>the port de voix, the ornament which is most often performed >>backwards (enough here for a separate post) >>9. Also read the following which describes the actual ornaments used >>in Rameau's time: >> >>Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina >>Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. (Paris: >>Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. See RILM >>1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau >> >>10. You are right about the language, lots to investigate there. >>11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasured preludes for >>harpsichord, then arrange them for lute. A new take on stile brise. >> >>dt >> >> >>At 12:35 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: >>>I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of >>>Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall >>>etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient explanations to >>>convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's more to it than >>>that. Are there, for example, considerations in the French style >>>that have to do with the cadences and general kinds of rhythms of the >>>French language itself? What things does one need to understand / >>>appreciate in order to make effectively rhetorical music in the >>>French style? >>> >>>Anybody got any ideas on this? >>> >>>Best, >>> >>>David Rastall >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>> >>>To get on or off this list see list information at >>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > > > >__ >D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" > http://www.doteasy.com >
[LUTE] Re: French Style
Telemann's eschewing of sequential development was alone sufficient for him to claim to be an adherent of the French style. Needless to say- aside from this there was nothing French in Telemann's thoroughly Germanic musical character. But this would indicate how much of a determinant that aspect was to an 18th century set of ears. RT - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ; "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] French Style I would say- mainly the absense of sequential development. RT From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient explanations to convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's more to it than that. David Rastall To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
This is all truffle sauce, but it tells you nothing about the wild boar underneath. RT - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: French Style That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. Here's a few basic starting points: 1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different genres 2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and distinguish rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is where it always goes wrong. 3. Read up on the "gout" 4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or 3, some know half a dozen, few know them all. You need to know at least a dozen, to put an arbitrary number on it. 5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting note, the repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play their trills right, or play them "evenly". 6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first note of the trill as a starting point--the grace note is the long note, not the other way around 7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and final cadential trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at the end, not the other way around. 8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements, especially for the port de voix, the ornament which is most often performed backwards (enough here for a separate post) 9. Also read the following which describes the actual ornaments used in Rameau's time: Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. (Paris: Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. See RILM 1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau 10. You are right about the language, lots to investigate there. 11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasured preludes for harpsichord, then arrange them for lute. A new take on stile brise. dt At 12:35 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient explanations to convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's more to it than that. Are there, for example, considerations in the French style that have to do with the cadences and general kinds of rhythms of the French language itself? What things does one need to understand / appreciate in order to make effectively rhetorical music in the French style? Anybody got any ideas on this? Best, David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" http://www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: French Style
That's a terrific question for which there is no easy answer. Here's a few basic starting points: 1. It is different at different times--don't conflate the different genres 2. Inegal is the most misused and most misunderstood. Read the original sources, don't rely on secondary sources. At a minimum,Distinguish between coule & pointe, and distinguish rhythmic inegal from articulation inegal--this is where it always goes wrong. 3. Read up on the "gout" 4. Learn all the agreements. Most people know 2 or 3, some know half a dozen, few know them all. You need to know at least a dozen, to put an arbitrary number on it. 5. Learn the three parts of the trill--the starting note, the repetition, and the escape. Most people don't play their trills right, or play them "evenly". 6. Use the 2/3rds rule for grace notes and the first note of the trill as a starting point--the grace note is the long note, not the other way around 7. Distinguish between the weight of medial and final cadential trills and ornaments, the lighter ones are often at the end, not the other way around. 8. At a minimum, read Monteclair on the agreements, especially for the port de voix, the ornament which is most often performed backwards (enough here for a separate post) 9. Also read the following which describes the actual ornaments used in Rameau's time: Author: MCGEGAN, Nicholas; SPAGNOLI, Gina Singing style at the Opera in the Rameau period. (Paris: Champion; Geneve: Slatkine, 1986) Music. In French. See RILM 1987-00887-bs.Collection: Jean-Philippe Rameau 10. You are right about the language, lots to investigate there. 11. Listen to a few recordings of unmeasured preludes for harpsichord, then arrange them for lute. A new take on stile brise. dt At 12:35 PM 6/19/2008, you wrote: >I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of >Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall >etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient explanations to >convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's more to it than >that. Are there, for example, considerations in the French style >that have to do with the cadences and general kinds of rhythms of the >French language itself? What things does one need to understand / >appreciate in order to make effectively rhetorical music in the >French style? > >Anybody got any ideas on this? > >Best, > >David Rastall >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
I would say- mainly the absense of sequential development. RT From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient explanations to convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's more to it than that. Are there, for example, considerations in the French style that have to do with the cadences and general kinds of rhythms of the French language itself? What things does one need to understand / appreciate in order to make effectively rhetorical music in the French style? Anybody got any ideas on this? Best, David Rastall To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French Style
I would call "reduction" the keyword. Eliminating everything not absolutely necessary but on the other hand highly elaborate - especially in terms of rhetoric Best wishes Thomas - Original Message - From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] French Style I'm wondering: what is it that makes up the "French style" of Baroque music? I don't mean particularly stile brise, notes inegall etc. Those are obvious, and to me insufficient explanations to convey the French Baroque. It seems to me there's more to it than that. Are there, for example, considerations in the French style that have to do with the cadences and general kinds of rhythms of the French language itself? What things does one need to understand / appreciate in order to make effectively rhetorical music in the French style? Anybody got any ideas on this? Best, David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
