Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Tudor Girba]

Hi,

I think this is a great idea.

Thanks for opening the issues. Now, the only question is where to put these. 
You suggest the package Manifest. I think this would work for individual 
packages, but as we are moving to projects (with Metacello), I would suggest to 
put these methods in the Configurations. This would also fit from a conceptual 
encapsulation point of view: loading and unloading are in the same place.

What do you think?

Doru


> On Aug 27, 2016, at 11:00 AM, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> You see hernan doing positively is the best way to make that things happen
> 
> We can have a
> 
>preUnload hook
> 
> Now we should check how it fits with cleanForProduction and others.
> 
> But we should definitively have a way to express this.
> 
> So let us see how we can design it and then just implement it. I'm sure that 
> GT people are open to such hooks
> 
> and if you really want to get a better Pharo for you then talk to them and us.
> 
> 
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18997/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-QA
> 
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18998/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-of-SpecDebugger
> 
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18999/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-GT-Debugger
> 
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19000/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-GT
> 
> Stef
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know her."

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Denis Kudriashov]

In context of discussion how to propose Mocketry and StateSpecs to be part
of Pharo?
We often said that Pharo provides the best approach to TDD but we have no
mock library inside. And nobody use mocks for Pharo tests because of that

2016-08-24 6:51 GMT+02:00 stepharo :

> Hi guys
>
> the board got a good discussion at ESUG about how to improve and a lot of
> the discussion turned around improving communication. We got some ideas
> that we will propose soon but I would like to get *your* ideas.
>
> If you have idea about improving communication around pharo please tell us.
>
>
> Stef
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Denis Kudriashov]

2016-08-24 9:38 GMT+02:00 stepharo :

> Igor looked at Twisty seriously and I do not think that it could handle
> large cobol files.
>
> (you see funnily denis is doing the same with Seamless - He rewrote it
> from scratch while
> nick worked on it for several years).
>

Just to clarify:
Twisty was not rewrite of TxText. When Igor returned to project I already
moved to my design ideas which was opposite to Igor. And I just decided to
finish what I started with new project name.
About long files - TxText optimization needs to be implemented in Twisty.
That's all. Current design could be evolved for it.
I does not know which project is better. In Twisty I implemented my
practical needs: various kinds of editors. To approve which design is
better someone needs to implement same in TxText and compare it with
Twisty. Probably simple example of masked text could be enough.

And I must mention Seamless to clarify that Nick work is not lost. He
implemented important ideas on asynchronous data transfer which helps me a
lot. I extracted them to separate project Basys with better abstraction
which is independent from Seamless goals. It improved testability and
leaded to rest of other changes.

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Denis Kudriashov]

Hi

2016-08-24 18:58 GMT+02:00 Hernán Morales Durand :

> 2. Features that goes inside Pharo are not decided by vote. They have to
>> add value and share the Pharo vision (pointed in the vision document who is
>> not slightly updated but still guides our steps). We try to reach consensus
>> and if it is not possible, then we decide. Yes, is like that… I’m sorry for
>> not being perfect democratic but this was never the idea of Pharo (it *has*
>> a benevolent dictator… who by the way is not me but a group, the board).
>>
>>
> Ok, now people can see one reason why Pharo is light years from the
> popularity of other OSS. I don't get how do you expect success with Pharo
> if you never change your mindset... I read a lot of papers and see KDE,
> gcc, Linux, NetBeans, Python, Mozilla, Apache collaboration models... never
> *ever* read something like that, specially now where OSS literature is
> considering distributed democracy.
>

I would say Pharo is still too young. And Pharo parents want to bring up it
in own way.
I think at some point Pharo could become adult enough to move away from
parents (in good meaning of these words:) (without losing respect to
parents vision)).

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

Hi yuriy

A package manifest is the place where we keep package rules and meta data.

We should add documentation and others.

I think that all the packages should have a XXXManifest.

There we can define a method preUnload and after we can define  a class 
PackageUnloader (or put the logic in the PackageOrganiser way better :)).


So that we can say

PackageOrganiser current unload: 'XXX' and the preUnload is executed.


Stef


Le 27/8/16 à 16:23, Yuriy Tymchuk a écrit :

On 27 Aug 2016, at 11:00, stepharo  wrote:

You see hernan doing positively is the best way to make that things happen

We can have a

preUnload hook

Now we should check how it fits with cleanForProduction and others.

But we should definitively have a way to express this.

So let us see how we can design it and then just implement it. I'm sure that GT 
people are open to such hooks

and if you really want to get a better Pharo for you then talk to them and us.


https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18997/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-QA

I like the idea, but how should it work? What is the package manifest? And how 
the unload protocol looks like? Do I only add a method called #unload to 
somewhere?

Uko


https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18998/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-of-SpecDebugger

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18999/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-GT-Debugger

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19000/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-GT

Stef

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Yuriy Tymchuk]

> On 27 Aug 2016, at 11:00, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> You see hernan doing positively is the best way to make that things happen
> 
> We can have a
> 
>preUnload hook
> 
> Now we should check how it fits with cleanForProduction and others.
> 
> But we should definitively have a way to express this.
> 
> So let us see how we can design it and then just implement it. I'm sure that 
> GT people are open to such hooks
> 
> and if you really want to get a better Pharo for you then talk to them and us.
> 
> 
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18997/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-QA

I like the idea, but how should it work? What is the package manifest? And how 
the unload protocol looks like? Do I only add a method called #unload to 
somewhere?

Uko

> 
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18998/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-of-SpecDebugger
> 
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18999/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-GT-Debugger
> 
> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19000/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-GT
> 
> Stef
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

So I think that I will keep Eyeinspector for Spec because it works well 
using Spec.


I will package BasicInspector

Then we will see. I think that Smalltalk tools inspector is not good 
because it is yet another global


while the tools should have a tool context (but with a registration 
mechanism to get refreshed in case).



Stef


Le 27/8/16 à 10:51, stepharo a écrit :
I took the inspector from Pharo20 and I will check if it is working in 
Pharo.

Then I will
- check EyeInspector from a package perspective (extensions and 
the rest)

- make sure that we can remove EyeInspector
- package the attached file as BasicInspector.

Now if you want to help you are welcome.

Stef

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

May be we should take the one of Pharo30 and review all the code.


Le 27/8/16 à 10:51, stepharo a écrit :
I took the inspector from Pharo20 and I will check if it is working in 
Pharo.

Then I will
- check EyeInspector from a package perspective (extensions and 
the rest)

- make sure that we can remove EyeInspector
- package the attached file as BasicInspector.

Now if you want to help you are welcome.

Stef

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

You see hernan doing positively is the best way to make that things happen

We can have a

preUnload hook

Now we should check how it fits with cleanForProduction and others.

But we should definitively have a way to express this.

So let us see how we can design it and then just implement it. I'm sure 
that GT people are open to such hooks


and if you really want to get a better Pharo for you then talk to them 
and us.



https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18997/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-QA

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18998/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-of-SpecDebugger

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18999/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-GT-Debugger

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19000/Add-unload-to-package-manifest-in-GT

Stef

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

I took the inspector from Pharo20 and I will check if it is working in 
Pharo.

Then I will
- check EyeInspector from a package perspective (extensions and the 
rest)

- make sure that we can remove EyeInspector
- package the attached file as BasicInspector.

Now if you want to help you are welcome.

Stef
Model subclass: #Inspector
instanceVariableNames: 'contents object selectionIndex 
timeOfLastListUpdate selectionUpdateTime'
classVariableNames: ''
poolDictionaries: ''
category: 'Tools-Inspector'!
!Inspector commentStamp: '' prior: 0!
I represent a query path into the internal representation of an object. As a 
StringHolder, the string I represent is the value of the currently selected 
variable of the observed object.!


!Inspector methodsFor: '*Polymorph-TaskbarIcons' stamp: 'FernandoOlivero 
4/12/2011 09:47'!
taskbarIcon 
^ self theme smallInspectItIcon! !


!Inspector methodsFor: '*Shout-Parsing' stamp: 'SeanDeNigris 6/22/2012 18:34'!
shoutParser: anSHParserST80

anSHParserST80 isMethod: false.! !


!Inspector methodsFor: '*Shout-Styling' stamp: 'GuillermoPolito 1/17/2012 
14:09'!
shoutAboutToStyle: aPluggableShoutMorphOrView 
aPluggableShoutMorphOrView getTextSelector == self trashSelector 
ifFalse: [ ^false ].
aPluggableShoutMorphOrView classOrMetaClass: self object class.
^ true! !


!Inspector methodsFor: '*necompletion' stamp: 'SeanDeNigris 7/7/2012 22:49'!
guessTypeForName: aString

self flag: 'we may be able to do something more sophisticated here, but 
needed something to prevent a DNU. Returning nil was taken from AbstractTool. 
See Debugger or Workspace for actual guessing logic'.
^ nil.! !

!Inspector methodsFor: '*necompletion' stamp: 'SeanDeNigris 6/22/2012 16:21'!
isCodeCompletionAllowed

^ true.! !


!Inspector methodsFor: 'accessing'!
baseFieldList
"Answer an Array consisting of 'self'
and the instance variable names of the inspected object."

^ (Array with: 'self' with: 'all inst vars')
, object class allInstVarNames! !

!Inspector methodsFor: 'accessing' stamp: 'GuillermoPolito 8/12/2010 14:52'!
contents
^contents! !

!Inspector methodsFor: 'accessing' stamp: 'GuillermoPolito 8/12/2010 14:52'!
contentsSelection
"Return the interval of text in the code pane to select when I set the 
pane's contents"

^ 1 to: 0  "null selection"! !

!Inspector methodsFor: 'accessing'!
fieldList
"Answer the base field list plus an abbreviated list of indices."

object class isVariable ifFalse: [^ self baseFieldList].
^ self baseFieldList ,
(object basicSize <= (self i1 + self i2)
ifTrue: [(1 to: object basicSize)
collect: [:i | i printString]]
ifFalse: [(1 to: self i1) , (object basicSize-(self 
i2-1) to: object basicSize)
collect: [:i | i 
printString]])! !

!Inspector methodsFor: 'accessing'!
i1
"This is the max index shown before skipping to the 
last i2 elements of very long arrays"
^ 100! !

!Inspector methodsFor: 'accessing'!
i2
"This is the number of elements to show at the end
of very long arrays"
^ 10! !

!Inspector methodsFor: 'accessing' stamp: 'al 9/21/2008 19:40'!
initialExtent
"Answer the desired extent for the receiver when it is first opened on 
the screen.  "

^ 350 @ 300! !

!Inspector methodsFor: 'accessing' stamp: 'sd 11/20/2005 21:27'!
modelWakeUpIn: aWindow
| newText |
self updateListsAndCodeIn: aWindow.
newText := self contentsIsString
ifTrue: [newText := self selection]
ifFalse: ["keep it short to reduce time to compute it"
self selectionPrintString ].
newText = contents ifFalse:
[contents := newText.
self changed: #contents]! !

!Inspector methodsFor: 'accessing' stamp: 'sd 11/20/2005 21:27'!
noteSelectionIndex: anInteger for: aSymbol
aSymbol == #fieldList
ifTrue:
[selectionIndex := anInteger]! !

!Inspector methodsFor: 'accessing'!
object
"Answer the object being inspected by the receiver."

^object! !

!Inspector methodsFor: 'accessing' stamp: 'sd 11/20/2005 21:27'!
object: anObject 
"Set anObject to be the object being inspected by the receiver."

| oldIndex |
anObject == object
ifTrue: [self update]
ifFalse:
[oldIndex := selectionIndex <= 2 ifTrue: 
[selectionIndex] ifFalse: [0].
self inspect: anObject.
oldIndex := oldIndex min: self fieldList size.
self changed: #inspectObject.
oldIndex > 0
 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

What we should do is to add an unload method to each of the package 
manifest of the corresponding projects.


We should make the unload protocol a lot more present.

I will start with Nautilus.



Can you publish the unload process?


Workspace openContents: 'GTPlayground setGTPlaygroundEnabledStatus: false.
" == Debuggers == "

Nautilus pluginClasses: nil.
SpecDebugger closeAllDebuggers.
GTGenericStackDebugger closeAllDebuggers.
GTGenericStackDebugger setGTDebuggerEnabledStatus: false.

" == Miscellany == "

GTInspector setGTInspectorEnabledStatus: false.
GTExampleOrganizer stop.
GTEventRecorder cleanUp.
GTEventRecorderSettings cleanUp.
GTSnippets reset.
GTPlayBook reset.
GTPlayBook resetDirectories.
GTSpotter cleanUp.
GTSpotterGlobalShortcut reset.

GlobalIdentifier cleanUp.
Privacy cleanUp.

" == QA == "
QASettings inspectorPluggin: false.
QASettings spotterPlugin: false.
QAEventCollector unload.
(MCPackage named: ''QualityAssistant'') unload.

" == RPackage == "
RPackageOrganizer default packageNames
select: [ :each | each beginsWith: ''GT'' ]
thenDo: [ :each |
(MCPackage named: each) unload.
RPackageOrganizer default unregisterPackageNamed: each.
" Possibly unnecessary... "
Smalltalk removeEmptyMessageCategories.
Smalltalk cleanOutUndeclared.
Smalltalk fixObsoleteReferences.
Smalltalk globals flushClassNameCache ].

Behavior flushEvents.
Behavior flushObsoleteSubclasses.
SmalltalkImage current resetTools.'

I still have some obsoletes around

AnObsoleteGTSpotterGlobalShortcut .
AnObsoleteQANautilusPlugin .
AnObsoleteGTExampleFinder
AnObsoleteGTExampleOrganizer
AnObsoleteGTSpotterProfiler
AnObsoleteGTEventCollector
AnObsoleteGTExampleNotDefinedRule

Tried to clean but no sucess so far.


Respect the freedom of choice for people which is not obligated
to love all your tools, by providing an uninstall option (if the
tool is not really essential)

I agree about the Unload Joseph Pelrine always told me that we
are only done when we can
upload and that the system is in a good shape.

You may not know it because I spent days working on configuration
of RB and friends
The problems is that it is a hell to keep them up to date (because
of our image).
We should have a building process from a seed. Because like that
you experiment every single day that you loading script.
Now we did not stress enough the unload of Metacello.


Now you see Pharo cannot be an empty shell.
Because what will happen if we are always listening to someone
that does not like something.
Now I strongly encourage you to watch the esug talk about
bootstrap because with it and all the work
of Pavel to define configurations for all the part of the system
so people will be able to build their solutions when the
official version does not suite their needs.




I would love to have the time to invite you, or any GT
developer, to work with me just one week with real DNA data,
and see how well GT goes...


Please do a skype sharing session with Andrei and Doru. I'm
sure that they will love to do it.
So I take your words and urge you do it.
It will help you to get out your frsutration and I'm sure
that GT will improve.
So a clear win/win situation.


This is hard for me because I'm sure at this point Andrei and
Doru should be angry with me for ciriticizing their work.

No I do not think so :)
I criticized their tools too.

But I will try to make some use cases these days and share with
you so I can show you specifically what I'm talking about.

Excellent!


Understood, what makes me most sad is users almost accepted
they cannot do better and if they do, their work will never
be integrated by default.

No do better.
Why I started Spec when ther was Glamour. Why Alain was
working on Calipso?
I would love that someone comes and tell me: take XX it is
super hyper cool UI Builder.


Me too, and by this point we should really ask ourselves why we
don't have yet a cool UI Builder.

Because nobody did it in a way that we can use it.

One guy worked alone on a private project long time ago. We could
not give him any feedback
because he wanted to have it perfect in the first place.
He stoped to work on it because of bad table support.
I looked at it once he opened-source it and you would not like to
have the code in Pharo.

Stef



Hernán


Instead, non-voters decisions discourages users to be
rewarded for their creativity, and imposes many others to
work free "supporting" tools which were imposed de facto.

So again, I cannot stress this enough: Is my job to say
no. I know I hurt some 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Hernán Morales Durand]

2016-08-26 6:19 GMT-03:00 stepharo :

>
> About GT I have some concerns too now I see also a lot of improvements. I
>> love GTInspector and we should remove EyeInspector.
>>
>> I want to have once brick is out another minimal environment not based on
>> anything so that we can have a back-door to debug when the other tools have
>> a problems.
>>
>
> Cool you are considering this situation.
>
>
> We **always** considered it because we aim at building minimal kernels but
> if Pharo would be only about that
> then nobody would use it. In PetitsBazars/Ondo is a little try I did to
> understand what I wanted.
> And we are not just considering it. We should have it. Now I was waiting
> for better widgets
> because I started to hate pluggable*
>
> Now if you have the code of the old inspector at hand package it and we
> will include it and remove the eyeinspector.
>
> Now some answers:
>>
>>
> I'm afraid my english is good enough to provide clear feedback. I try to
> do my best without offending anyone (see below)
>
> I understand really well what you mean. :)
> Now the key points is how can we turn things positively.
> Sorry but
>
> - you would be surprised by how many people would vote to get GT tools
>> inside Pharo :)
>>
>
> In my opinion is because it is biased by the same people who is behind, or
> invested time testing/fixing it, and we are few to have a valuable N. This
> will never be fair, newbies will ignore the old inspector/explorer (yes,
> the old one from Squeak) was just fine and was easily understandable and
> extensible just adding a few methods. And, I repeat in my opinion, a new
> inspector isn't really a high priority for our world problems (big data is,
> for example), much less a framework So that's my view on it.
>
> But that's all, decision was taken. Now we have to move on.
>
>
> No I want a basic inspector in the system :)
>
>
>
>> - then I do not know what to tell you because I'm quite sure that
>> Apache or Mozilla are not managed by vote of people.
>>
>
> Just a few references you, or the board, may consider for the future :
>
> Python: https://www.python.org/psf/membership/#who-is-allowed-to-vote
> KDE : " A "KDE Core Team" uses a democratic voting procedure to resolve
> important issues "
> Apache HTTPD : " Proposed changes are voted upon via mailing list; 3 yes
> votes with no vetos are required to commit a change "
> Mozilla : "A review and super-review process is required for most code
> changes."
>
> http://flosshub.org/sites/flosshub.org/files/HalloranScherlis.pdf
>
> "It is important to keep users involved in the process and not treat them
> as second-class citizens."
> Richard P. Gabriel
> http://www.dreamsongs.com/IHE/IHE-52.html
>
> We are not treating people as second citizens.
>
>
>
>
> To be clear, it's not against GT specifically (I don't like it, too slow,
> takes too much space, etc) but the integration process behind, where the
> board delivered it and seemed to said f**ck you this must be loved, deal
> with it if don't. But then we don't have an easy way too uninstall it, I
> have to spend days investigating how to remove it disabling settings in
> specific order, and without leaving obsolete instances all around. So
> what's my proposal for a next release?
>
> Can you publish the unload process?
>

Workspace openContents: 'GTPlayground setGTPlaygroundEnabledStatus: false.
" == Debuggers == "

Nautilus pluginClasses: nil.
SpecDebugger closeAllDebuggers.
GTGenericStackDebugger closeAllDebuggers.
GTGenericStackDebugger setGTDebuggerEnabledStatus: false.

" == Miscellany == "

GTInspector setGTInspectorEnabledStatus: false.
GTExampleOrganizer stop.
GTEventRecorder cleanUp.
GTEventRecorderSettings cleanUp.
GTSnippets reset.
GTPlayBook reset.
GTPlayBook resetDirectories.
GTSpotter cleanUp.
GTSpotterGlobalShortcut reset.

GlobalIdentifier cleanUp.
Privacy cleanUp.

" == QA == "
QASettings inspectorPluggin: false.
QASettings spotterPlugin: false.
QAEventCollector unload.
(MCPackage named: ''QualityAssistant'') unload.

" == RPackage == "
RPackageOrganizer default packageNames
select: [ :each | each beginsWith: ''GT'' ]
thenDo: [ :each |
(MCPackage named: each) unload.
RPackageOrganizer default unregisterPackageNamed: each.
" Possibly unnecessary... "
Smalltalk removeEmptyMessageCategories.
Smalltalk cleanOutUndeclared.
Smalltalk fixObsoleteReferences.
Smalltalk globals flushClassNameCache ].

Behavior flushEvents.
Behavior flushObsoleteSubclasses.
SmalltalkImage current resetTools.'

I still have some obsoletes around

AnObsoleteGTSpotterGlobalShortcut .
AnObsoleteQANautilusPlugin .
AnObsoleteGTExampleFinder
AnObsoleteGTExampleOrganizer
AnObsoleteGTSpotterProfiler
AnObsoleteGTEventCollector
AnObsoleteGTExampleNotDefinedRule

Tried to clean but no sucess so far.


> Respect the freedom of choice for people which is 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Pavel Krivanek]

Dne pátek 26. srpna 2016 Hernán Morales Durand 
napsal(a):

> Hi Stef,
>
> 2016-08-25 3:48 GMT-03:00 stepharo  >:
>
>> Hi hernan
>>
>> Could you reply to my mail? Because what is important is how we can make
>> progres.
>>
>
> Ok, here it is :)
>
>
>> About GT I have some concerns too now I see also a lot of improvements. I
>> love GTInspector and we should remove EyeInspector.
>>
>> I want to have once brick is out another minimal environment not based on
>> anything so that we can have a back-door to debug when the other tools have
>> a problems.
>>
>
> Cool you are considering this situation.
>
>
>> Now some answers:
>>
>>
>>
>> Then it makes no sense raise any form of criticism, or the board, if by
>> definition lobby groups silence any possible mistake.
>>
>> No this is wrong. You can criticize as I criticize but you should give
>> clear actionable points.
>> Else this is Oh XX is bad.
>> Tell us how we can address your problems and we will try.
>> Without clear feedback we cannot act.
>>
>>
> I'm afraid my english is good enough to provide clear feedback. I try to
> do my best without offending anyone (see below)
>
>
>
>> 2. Features that goes inside Pharo are not decided by vote. They have to
>>> add value and share the Pharo vision (pointed in the vision document who is
>>> not slightly updated but still guides our steps). We try to reach consensus
>>> and if it is not possible, then we decide. Yes, is like that… I’m sorry for
>>> not being perfect democratic but this was never the idea of Pharo (it *has*
>>> a benevolent dictator… who by the way is not me but a group, the board).
>>>
>>>
>> Ok, now people can see one reason why Pharo is light years from the
>> popularity of other OSS. I don't get how do you expect success with Pharo
>> if you never change your mindset... I read a lot of papers and see KDE,
>> gcc, Linux, NetBeans, Python, Mozilla, Apache collaboration models... never
>> *ever* read something like that, specially now where OSS literature is
>> considering distributed democracy.
>>
>> Sorry but
>> - you would be surprised by how many people would vote to get GT
>> tools inside Pharo :)
>>
>
> In my opinion is because it is biased by the same people who is behind, or
> invested time testing/fixing it, and we are few to have a valuable N. This
> will never be fair, newbies will ignore the old inspector/explorer (yes,
> the old one from Squeak) was just fine and was easily understandable and
> extensible just adding a few methods. And, I repeat in my opinion, a new
> inspector isn't really a high priority for our world problems (big data is,
> for example), much less a framework So that's my view on it.
>
> But that's all, decision was taken. Now we have to move on.
>
>
>> - then I do not know what to tell you because I'm quite sure that
>> Apache or Mozilla are not managed by vote of people.
>>
>
> Just a few references you, or the board, may consider for the future :
>
> Python: https://www.python.org/psf/membership/#who-is-allowed-to-vote
> KDE : " A "KDE Core Team" uses a democratic voting procedure to resolve
> important issues "
> Apache HTTPD : " Proposed changes are voted upon via mailing list; 3 yes
> votes with no vetos are required to commit a change "
> Mozilla : "A review and super-review process is required for most code
> changes."
>
> http://flosshub.org/sites/flosshub.org/files/HalloranScherlis.pdf
>
> "It is important to keep users involved in the process and not treat them
> as second-class citizens."
> Richard P. Gabriel
> http://www.dreamsongs.com/IHE/IHE-52.html
>
>
>
>> In the end, time will tell, but can you cite another successful open
>> source project with such "model"?
>>
>> Sorry I do not have the time to know.
>> We want an doit model: doing in things should be more important than suh
>> having needs (even if clients and users are important)
>>
> 4. You have a very negative opinion about our design choices. That’s ok,
>>> but we are not going to remove GT just because you dislike it.
>>>
>>
>> It's not because of just my dislike. It's because it was never proposed
>> for inclusion (it was just decided), it is because you make it almost
>> impossible to uninstall it, and because it was integrated very early like
>> an enhacement/future/vision set of tools without any votes, or
>> high-resistance policy like many Open-Source projects, and judging by the
>> volume of mails it required a lot of of time of beta-testing by many users.
>>
>> You mean beside me someone was not really happy?
>> Seriously?
>> Now you can not use Spotter so I do not see the problem.
>> The Debugger is working well.
>> Playground looks like a default workspace.
>> Then GTInspector works perfectly for me.
>>
>
> To be clear, it's not against GT specifically (I don't like it, too slow,
> takes too much space, etc) but the integration process behind, where the
> board delivered it 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

So true. :)



On Thu, 25 Aug 2016 09:05:45 +0200
stepharo  wrote:


Yes but we cannot do much

OK. I got it...do you believe it makes sense for a noob to create account
in case there are some low-hanging fruits to pick?

Definitely.  And not necessarily that you *solve* an issues, but that
I found a benefit from "goal directed learning".
When I started using Pharo I learned a lot from:
* trying to reproduce issues - which also benefits core developers if
you can gather more complete symptom info
* testing other people's solutions - putting halts in the changed code
and simultaneously stepping through the original and solution code.
Actually I was surprised at far into the depths of the system this led
me sometimes and how accessible they were.  Look for issue marked
"Fixed - review needed"

cheers -ben

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

Definitively :)

I started to do that when I discovered Smalltalk. I wanted to learn and 
I read the submissions of people and try to understand and comment.


And I learned a lot about the system, about myself, about quality.

Stef


Le 25/8/16 à 17:31, Gour a écrit :

On Thu, 25 Aug 2016 09:05:45 +0200
stepharo  wrote:


Yes but we cannot do much

OK. I got it...do you believe it makes sense for a noob to create acount
in case there are some low-hanging fruits to pick?


Sincerely,
Gour

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

About GT I have some concerns too now I see also a lot of
improvements. I love GTInspector and we should remove EyeInspector.

I want to have once brick is out another minimal environment not
based on anything so that we can have a back-door to debug when
the other tools have a problems.


Cool you are considering this situation.


We **always** considered it because we aim at building minimal kernels 
but if Pharo would be only about that
then nobody would use it. In PetitsBazars/Ondo is a little try I did to 
understand what I wanted.
And we are not just considering it. We should have it. Now I was 
waiting  for better widgets

because I started to hate pluggable*

Now if you have the code of the old inspector at hand package it and we 
will include it and remove the eyeinspector.


Now some answers:



I'm afraid my english is good enough to provide clear feedback. I try 
to do my best without offending anyone (see below)

I understand really well what you mean. :)
Now the key points is how can we turn things positively.
Sorry but


- you would be surprised by how many people would vote to get
GT tools inside Pharo :)


In my opinion is because it is biased by the same people who is 
behind, or invested time testing/fixing it, and we are few to have a 
valuable N. This will never be fair, newbies will ignore the old 
inspector/explorer (yes, the old one from Squeak) was just fine and 
was easily understandable and extensible just adding a few methods. 
And, I repeat in my opinion, a new inspector isn't really a high 
priority for our world problems (big data is, for example), much less 
a framework So that's my view on it.


But that's all, decision was taken. Now we have to move on.


No I want a basic inspector in the system :)


- then I do not know what to tell you because I'm quite sure
that Apache or Mozilla are not managed by vote of people.


Just a few references you, or the board, may consider for the future :

Python: https://www.python.org/psf/membership/#who-is-allowed-to-vote 

KDE : " A "KDE Core Team" uses a democratic voting procedure to 
resolve important issues "
Apache HTTPD : " Proposed changes are voted upon via mailing list; 3 
yes votes with no vetos are required to commit a change "
Mozilla : "A review and super-review process is required for most code 
changes."


http://flosshub.org/sites/flosshub.org/files/HalloranScherlis.pdf 



"It is important to keep users involved in the process and not treat 
them as second-class citizens."

Richard P. Gabriel
http://www.dreamsongs.com/IHE/IHE-52.html 


We are not treating people as second citizens.





To be clear, it's not against GT specifically (I don't like it, too 
slow, takes too much space, etc) but the integration process behind, 
where the board delivered it and seemed to said f**ck you this must be 
loved, deal with it if don't. But then we don't have an easy way too 
uninstall it, I have to spend days investigating how to remove it 
disabling settings in specific order, and without leaving obsolete 
instances all around. So what's my proposal for a next release?

Can you publish the unload process?
Respect the freedom of choice for people which is not obligated to 
love all your tools, by providing an uninstall option (if the tool is 
not really essential)
I agree about the Unload Joseph Pelrine always told me that we are 
only done when we can

upload and that the system is in a good shape.

You may not know it because I spent days working on configuration of RB 
and friends
The problems is that it is a hell to keep them up to date (because of 
our image).
We should have a building process from a seed. Because like that you 
experiment every single day that you loading script.

Now we did not stress enough the unload of Metacello.


Now you see Pharo cannot be an empty shell.
Because what will happen if we are always listening to someone that does 
not like something.
Now I strongly encourage you to watch the esug talk about bootstrap 
because with it and all the work
of Pavel to define configurations for all the part of the system so 
people will be able to build their solutions when the

official version does not suite their needs.




I would love to have the time to invite you, or any GT developer,
to work with me just one week with real DNA data, and see how
well GT goes...


Please do a skype sharing session with Andrei and Doru. I'm sure
that they will love to do it.
So I take your words and urge you do it.
It will help you to get out your frsutration and I'm sure that GT
will improve.
So a clear win/win situation.


This is hard for me because I'm sure at this point Andrei and Doru 
should be angry with me for ciriticizing their work.

No I do not 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Gour]

On Fri, 26 Aug 2016 14:27:24 +0800
Ben Coman  wrote:

> Definitely.  And not necessarily that you *solve* an issues, but that
> I found a benefit from "goal directed learning".

That's a good point!

> When I started using Pharo I learned a lot from: * trying to reproduce
> issues - which also benefits core developers if you can gather more
> complete symptom info * testing other people's solutions - putting
> halts in the changed code and simultaneously stepping through the
> original and solution code.  Actually I was surprised at far into the
> depths of the system this led me sometimes and how accessible they
> were.  Look for issue marked "Fixed - review needed"

Thank you. It seems that I'm ahead of new (learning) experience provided
by "inspired by Smalltalk" environment. :-)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
But for one who takes pleasure in the self, whose human life
is one of self-realization, and who is satisfied in the self only,
fully satiated — for him there is no duty.

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Gour]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2016 23:06:51 +0200
Tudor Girba  wrote:

> It definitely does! We are all noobs in many parts in our system.

Heh, I'm for the whole system. :-)

> But, if you take your time and are willing to dig, the system is kind
> enough to reveal itself to you :). That is the beauty of this world.
> Please join us. Just dive :).

OK, thank you for encouraging me...I'm going to create it. ;)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
A person is said to be established in self-realization and is called a
yogī [or mystic] when he is fully satisfied by virtue of acquired
knowledge and realization. Such a person is situated in transcendence
and is self-controlled. He sees everything — whether it be pebbles,
stones or gold — as the same.

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Ben Coman]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 11:31 PM, Gour  wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2016 09:05:45 +0200
> stepharo  wrote:
>
>> Yes but we cannot do much
>
> OK. I got it...do you believe it makes sense for a noob to create account
> in case there are some low-hanging fruits to pick?

Definitely.  And not necessarily that you *solve* an issues, but that
I found a benefit from "goal directed learning".
When I started using Pharo I learned a lot from:
* trying to reproduce issues - which also benefits core developers if
you can gather more complete symptom info
* testing other people's solutions - putting halts in the changed code
and simultaneously stepping through the original and solution code.
Actually I was surprised at far into the depths of the system this led
me sometimes and how accessible they were.  Look for issue marked
"Fixed - review needed"

cheers -ben

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Hernán Morales Durand]

Hi Stef,

2016-08-25 3:48 GMT-03:00 stepharo :

> Hi hernan
>
> Could you reply to my mail? Because what is important is how we can make
> progres.
>

Ok, here it is :)


> About GT I have some concerns too now I see also a lot of improvements. I
> love GTInspector and we should remove EyeInspector.
>
> I want to have once brick is out another minimal environment not based on
> anything so that we can have a back-door to debug when the other tools have
> a problems.
>

Cool you are considering this situation.


> Now some answers:
>
>
>
> Then it makes no sense raise any form of criticism, or the board, if by
> definition lobby groups silence any possible mistake.
>
> No this is wrong. You can criticize as I criticize but you should give
> clear actionable points.
> Else this is Oh XX is bad.
> Tell us how we can address your problems and we will try.
> Without clear feedback we cannot act.
>
>
I'm afraid my english is good enough to provide clear feedback. I try to do
my best without offending anyone (see below)



> 2. Features that goes inside Pharo are not decided by vote. They have to
>> add value and share the Pharo vision (pointed in the vision document who is
>> not slightly updated but still guides our steps). We try to reach consensus
>> and if it is not possible, then we decide. Yes, is like that… I’m sorry for
>> not being perfect democratic but this was never the idea of Pharo (it *has*
>> a benevolent dictator… who by the way is not me but a group, the board).
>>
>>
> Ok, now people can see one reason why Pharo is light years from the
> popularity of other OSS. I don't get how do you expect success with Pharo
> if you never change your mindset... I read a lot of papers and see KDE,
> gcc, Linux, NetBeans, Python, Mozilla, Apache collaboration models... never
> *ever* read something like that, specially now where OSS literature is
> considering distributed democracy.
>
> Sorry but
> - you would be surprised by how many people would vote to get GT tools
> inside Pharo :)
>

In my opinion is because it is biased by the same people who is behind, or
invested time testing/fixing it, and we are few to have a valuable N. This
will never be fair, newbies will ignore the old inspector/explorer (yes,
the old one from Squeak) was just fine and was easily understandable and
extensible just adding a few methods. And, I repeat in my opinion, a new
inspector isn't really a high priority for our world problems (big data is,
for example), much less a framework So that's my view on it.

But that's all, decision was taken. Now we have to move on.


> - then I do not know what to tell you because I'm quite sure that
> Apache or Mozilla are not managed by vote of people.
>

Just a few references you, or the board, may consider for the future :

Python: https://www.python.org/psf/membership/#who-is-allowed-to-vote
KDE : " A "KDE Core Team" uses a democratic voting procedure to resolve
important issues "
Apache HTTPD : " Proposed changes are voted upon via mailing list; 3 yes
votes with no vetos are required to commit a change "
Mozilla : "A review and super-review process is required for most code
changes."

http://flosshub.org/sites/flosshub.org/files/HalloranScherlis.pdf

"It is important to keep users involved in the process and not treat them
as second-class citizens."
Richard P. Gabriel
http://www.dreamsongs.com/IHE/IHE-52.html



> In the end, time will tell, but can you cite another successful open
> source project with such "model"?
>
> Sorry I do not have the time to know.
> We want an doit model: doing in things should be more important than suh
> having needs (even if clients and users are important)
>
4. You have a very negative opinion about our design choices. That’s ok,
>> but we are not going to remove GT just because you dislike it.
>>
>
> It's not because of just my dislike. It's because it was never proposed
> for inclusion (it was just decided), it is because you make it almost
> impossible to uninstall it, and because it was integrated very early like
> an enhacement/future/vision set of tools without any votes, or
> high-resistance policy like many Open-Source projects, and judging by the
> volume of mails it required a lot of of time of beta-testing by many users.
>
> You mean beside me someone was not really happy?
> Seriously?
> Now you can not use Spotter so I do not see the problem.
> The Debugger is working well.
> Playground looks like a default workspace.
> Then GTInspector works perfectly for me.
>

To be clear, it's not against GT specifically (I don't like it, too slow,
takes too much space, etc) but the integration process behind, where the
board delivered it and seemed to said f**ck you this must be loved, deal
with it if don't. But then we don't have an easy way too uninstall it, I
have to spend days investigating how to remove it disabling settings in
specific order, and without leaving obsolete instances all around. So
what's my proposal for a 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Tudor Girba]

Hi,

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 5:31 PM, Gour  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2016 09:05:45 +0200
> stepharo  wrote:
> 
>> Yes but we cannot do much
> 
> OK. I got it...do you believe it makes sense for a noob to create acount
> in case there are some low-hanging fruits to pick?

It definitely does! We are all noobs in many parts in our system. But, if you 
take your time and are willing to dig, the system is kind enough to reveal 
itself to you :). That is the beauty of this world. Please join us. Just dive 
:).

Cheers,
Doru

> 
> Sincerely,
> Gour
> 
> -- 
> From wherever the mind wanders due to its flickering and unsteady
> nature, one must certainly withdraw it and bring it back under
> the control of the self.
> 
> 
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"If you interrupt the barber while he is cutting your hair,
you will end up with a messy haircut."

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Gour]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2016 09:05:45 +0200
stepharo  wrote:

> Yes but we cannot do much

OK. I got it...do you believe it makes sense for a noob to create acount
in case there are some low-hanging fruits to pick?


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
From wherever the mind wanders due to its flickering and unsteady
nature, one must certainly withdraw it and bring it back under
the control of the self.

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Guille Polito]

Hi! Hola!

I would like to help with some of this, so I sorted a bit the ideas in 
the previous emails to see if we can extract some concrete actions to 
apply. So I'll make a step back and put some titles to the topics of 
discussion:


!Human/Social/Politics stuff

1) Policies
  - Deciding about what goes inside
  - And what does not
- e.g., what is the official IDE? What is a valid issue?
  - And what is necessary or useful for the community

Well, on the one hand Esteban and Steph answered to this already I 
think. At least about how this works in reality. I have however two 
remarks on this:


- First, I think that all accepted issues should be aligned with Pharo's 
vision. And this means first that this vision must be well documented 
and updated. Second, it means that people should know and read that 
vision document (and not get mad if ). But also, this "alignment" is 
kind of subjective: there is somebody that decides if this happens or 
not. And this happens to be the board who does it...


- Second, I do not really care what the heck is the process to decide 
this. But I believe that documenting it is nothing but a good move. (And 
this is related to the PEPs Hernan named and I talk about below...)


2) Discussion around the same topics for months
  - can we have some examples about these? From the top of my head I 
can think about

 * 
 * Logging
 * ?

Well, I see also sometimes that we have long-running discussions that go 
nowhere... But:


 - First, I take them as people is learning. In Pharo-dev people 
discuss sometimes about things they are not sure of or maybe they want 
to share and change. And maybe they are discussing to explore new ideas. 
So, please do not ban these discussions, I thing that we have to 
encourage them. Also, the traffic in Pharo-dev is so high that if 
something is not interesting to us, we have to either learn to filter 
that out, or follow other lower-traffic options such as pharo-users or 
pharo's new newsletter.


- Second, please, if you feel that you have something to propose, drop 
it in the mailing list! But as you make it public, do not expect that 
everybody will agree :). Also, as you have noticed, many people in this 
list have really strong opinions, so we have to understand and continue 
pushing.


3) PEPs (Pharo Enhancement Proposals?)

Well, this is an interesting idea. I think it is important to document well
 - the integration process
 - the decision process
 - the release process
 - the proposal process (which BTW I really, since to propose some 
enhancement you need to really describe and design it and not just say 
"mine is cooler!")
 - Coding idioms and styles (maybe we can autogenerate this from lint 
rules Invoking Yuriy here!!)


A question I would pose is
 - where should this be? a wiki somewhere? some part inside the pharo site?

!Technical stuff, about Big images, modularization, removing tests

  Hernan, I am really interested in your use case where having the 
image tests is really bothering. We are working on modularizing it, yes, 
but we also believe the default environment should contain tests to 
guarantee some quality => otherwise, breaking the system would be far 
much easier!
  But if you are interested in modular images just drop me (and 
Christophe, and Pavel) an email and we can see how we can collaborate.



And also, Hernan, what would you collaborate with? Because in your email 
I had the impression that you "expect" something from people: to accept 
your issues, to fix your issues, to communicate with you, but it's fuzzy 
what you're doing also to make that happen. This is maybe just an email 
miscommunication, just take this as a proposal to really move your ideas 
forward (with your help, of course).


Guille

 Original Message 




Hello,




Looking at bugs is really difficult. There are not enough people

looking and fixing bugs.


just a short note from a Pharo noob...it is, imho, very strange that one

cannot even take a look at bugs *without* creating account at tracker.




We know.  Now the company offered us a professional service (cost around
25$ per month per user)

for free. And also to maintain it. We do not want to spend our resources
on maintaining...

Then we migrating with pain from the google service.


By having ability to, at least, skim at bugs and see if there are some

low-hanging fruits to tackle, maybe more work could be accomplished?



Having issue tracker closed for the public emits, imho, not very

friendly signal to potential contributors.


Yes but we cannot do much



Stef

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

Let us know because we do not


I don't get why we don't have more discussions about end-developer 
tools : XML, i18n, GIS, simulation & expert systems, big data, 
reporting...
Yes the idea is that we would like to try a process for Pharo and that 
such process can be used by other projects such as Moose.




I think you could implement some reward system for devs with more bug 
fixes: Interviews, consortium membership, maybe voting on some issues...?
I wanted to have something like the bug fixers of the month but my plate 
is fuller than people can imagine.
Now we pay really attention that work of many contributors/fixers get 
really reviewed fast.

And this is a way to thank them for their energy and contributions.




About features



To me there a couple of things which must have two versions 
(considering we lack a sub-image where to do image repairing).


- Inspector:
-- One cool (this seems will ever be GT)
-- One bullet-proof very very limited (to repair GT when broken, or 
minimal image)

Definitively.
Why don't you help me remove EyeInspector and build such low level 
inspector.




- System Browser
-- One cool (like Nautilus)
-- One standard (to not have an unusable image if the cool one gets 
broken)

Same here.
I started to write one that is really really minimal two panes :)
but I want real widgets.



I see, never tried Jenkins for real (but maybe rethorical question: is 
that true users need all the Tests in the image? To test a package 
like Graphics-Test?)
- No users do not need that but we do not want to have to load them when 
we need them.
We can offer a jenkins account to you and you can build your image 
without any problem.

They will even show up in PharoLauncher.



Another example, what happens if another research group came with
a better alternative to Calypso, Brick, Telescope, Bloc. Would
you integrate first your tool to mark territory?


No this is not a question of territory. Doru and GT does not
do that in that spirit.
RMOD too. We do something when we think that this is better.
For example Epicea is three years of work of Martin, Fuel was
so nice that we could not lose it.
You see Ghost got changed by denis, Seamless got rewritten
from scratch.


Who decides? For example (IIRC) TxText and Twisty.

Igor looked at Twisty seriously and I do not think that it
could handle large cobol files.

(you see funnily denis is doing the same with Seamless - He
rewrote it from scratch while
nick worked on it for several years).

Igor wanted to have a stream-based API that could work on
modern command-oriented videos card framework.
My team (on our own money if you understand what it means)
paid Igor to build TxText (and I can tell you that I would
have prefered him to do something else).


So the money decides :)
Not only, energy too. If you propose a basic inspector we will integrate 
it.
When I said to inria give an engineer for doing X and X is key for the 
future of Pharo
(put Athens, TxText, VM build, Package, Bootstrap) I cannot ask two 
times so it has to be done.




The same applies if anyone came with another rewrite of classic
Smalltalk Workspace, Debugger and Inspector tools, what would you
do with GT? GT stays because it came before and others would be
optional?

No this is not like that.
If you are better or answer better needs.


There will be anything like PEPs?

I would love but will people have the energy to implement them?
I would definitively encourage you as a community to raise
points on what you need.


I would write a "PEP" if someone from the board seriously considers to 
review it and integrate it (or not) with a clear communication.


What do you mean integrate it.
A PEP is first a description and then after we decide. We cannot give a 
free check but please write a PEP

One page max.

Hernan I always answered your emails. I always consider your work 
(and you know it for other reasons and by my facts) after I'm not 
always in agreement as I'm not always in agreement with other board 
members and this is how live happens.


What is clear is that the most important aspects is to
continue to communicate. This is why the board is launching
this initiative and I would love to see it taken by people
even for their projects.


Thank you Stef for raising this space to consider both good and 
uncomfortable things.


Thank. You see I think that the board was not communicating within 
itself too and we should address this.

We cannot be all running like hamsters :)

I believe one day we -pharo users- have to take the world and show 
what's happening here. Time passes and we have an unique chance of 
changing the world through Pharo, our beloved self-convinced 
textual-relational world. Pharo technology is designed to push limits, 
so let's do things 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

Hello,


Looking at bugs is really difficult. There are not enough people
looking and fixing bugs.

just a short note from a Pharo noob...it is, imho, very strange that one
cannot even take a look at bugs *without* creating account at tracker.


We know.  Now the company offered us a professional service (cost around 
25$ per month per user)
for free. And also to maintain it. We do not want to spend our resources 
on maintaining...

Then we migrating with pain from the google service.

By having ability to, at least, skim at bugs and see if there are some
low-hanging fruits to tackle, maybe more work could be accomplished?

Having issue tracker closed for the public emits, imho, not very
friendly signal to potential contributors.

Yes but we cannot do much

Stef

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Tudor Girba]

Hi,

Thanks Stef for the reply. I completely concur.

@Hernán: About the issues with GT: please do get in touch. We have asked for it 
several times, and we are still here. If you have concrete issues, please raise 
them but focus on how to improve concretely.

At the same time, also keep in mind that the overall decisions have to take 
into account other people’s constraints. That is why we need to iterate, and 
just because some requests do not make it, it does not mean that we do not 
care, but that we could not find a better solution to accommodate all wishes 
within the given time frame. We would certainly welcome help especially when 
that help aims to understand the full picture. The IDE is not a straightforward 
domain and we still have much to learn. 

Please, let’s work together and remember to have fun in the process :).

Cheers,
Doru




> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:48 AM, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> Hi hernan 
> Could you reply to my mail? Because what is important is how we can make 
> progres.
> 
> About GT I have some concerns too now I see also a lot of improvements. I 
> love GTInspector and we should remove EyeInspector. 
> I want to have once brick is out another minimal environment not based on 
> anything so that we can have a back-door to debug when the other tools have a 
> problems. 
> Now some answers: 
>> 
>> 
>> Then it makes no sense raise any form of criticism, or the board, if by 
>> definition lobby groups silence any possible mistake.
> No this is wrong. You can criticize as I criticize but you should give clear 
> actionable points. 
> Else this is Oh XX is bad. 
> Tell us how we can address your problems and we will try. 
> Without clear feedback we cannot act. 
> 
>> 2. Features that goes inside Pharo are not decided by vote. They have to add 
>> value and share the Pharo vision (pointed in the vision document who is not 
>> slightly updated but still guides our steps). We try to reach consensus and 
>> if it is not possible, then we decide. Yes, is like that… I’m
>>sorry for not being perfect democratic but this was never the idea of 
>> Pharo (it *has* a benevolent dictator… who by the way is not me but a group, 
>> the board). 
>> 
>> 
>> Ok, now people can see one reason why Pharo is light years from the 
>> popularity of other OSS. I don't get how do you expect success with Pharo if 
>> you never change your mindset... I read a lot of papers and see KDE, gcc, 
>> Linux, NetBeans, Python, Mozilla, Apache collaboration models... never 
>> *ever* read something like that, specially now where OSS literature is 
>> considering distributed democracy.
> Sorry but 
> - you would be surprised by how many people would vote to get GT tools 
> inside Pharo :)
> - then I do not know what to tell you because I'm quite sure that Apache 
> or Mozilla are not managed by vote of people. 
> 
>> In the end, time will tell, but can you cite another successful open source 
>> project with such "model"?
> Sorry I do not have the time to know. 
> We want an doit model: doing in things should be more important than suh 
> having needs (even if clients and users are important)
>> 4. You have a very negative opinion about our design choices. That’s ok, but 
>> we are not going to remove GT just because you dislike it.
>> 
>> It's not because of just my dislike. It's because it was never proposed for 
>> inclusion (it was just decided), it is because you make it almost impossible 
>> to uninstall it, and because it was integrated very early like an 
>> enhacement/future/vision set of tools without any votes, or high-resistance 
>> policy like many Open-Source projects, and judging by the volume of mails it 
>> required a lot of of time of beta-testing by many users.
> You mean beside me someone was not really happy?
> Seriously? 
> Now you can not use Spotter so I do not see the problem. 
> The Debugger is working well.
> Playground looks like a default workspace. 
> Then GTInspector works perfectly for me. 
>> 
>> I would love to have the time to invite you, or any GT developer, to work 
>> with me just one week with real DNA data, and see how well GT goes...
> 
> Please do a skype sharing session with Andrei and Doru. I'm sure that they 
> will love to do it. 
> So I take your words and urge you do it. 
> It will help you to get out your frsutration and I'm sure that GT will 
> improve. 
> So a clear win/win situation. 
>> 
>> Maybe I should be sorry for not being as obedient and blindly accepting all 
>> board decisions as the word of God, as many on this list. 
> Can you imagine one moment that people like it?
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Understood, what makes me most sad is users almost accepted they cannot do 
>> better and if they do, their work will never be integrated by default.
> No do better. 
> Why I started Spec when ther was Glamour. Why Alain was working on Calipso?
> I would love that someone comes and tell me: take XX it is super hyper cool 
> UI 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

Hi hernan

Could you reply to my mail? Because what is important is how we can make 
progres.


About GT I have some concerns too now I see also a lot of improvements. 
I love GTInspector and we should remove EyeInspector.


I want to have once brick is out another minimal environment not based 
on anything so that we can have a back-door to debug when the other 
tools have a problems.


Now some answers:




Then it makes no sense raise any form of criticism, or the board, if 
by definition lobby groups silence any possible mistake.
No this is wrong. You can criticize as I criticize but you should give 
clear actionable points.

Else this is Oh XX is bad.
Tell us how we can address your problems and we will try.
Without clear feedback we cannot act.


2. Features that goes inside Pharo are not decided by vote. They
have to add value and share the Pharo vision (pointed in the
vision document who is not slightly updated but still guides our
steps). We try to reach consensus and if it is not possible, then
we decide. Yes, is like that… I’m sorry for not being perfect
democratic but this was never the idea of Pharo (it *has* a
benevolent dictator… who by the way is not me but a group, the
board).


Ok, now people can see one reason why Pharo is light years from the 
popularity of other OSS. I don't get how do you expect success with 
Pharo if you never change your mindset... I read a lot of papers and 
see KDE, gcc, Linux, NetBeans, Python, Mozilla, Apache collaboration 
models... never *ever* read something like that, specially now where 
OSS literature is considering distributed democracy.

Sorry but
- you would be surprised by how many people would vote to get GT 
tools inside Pharo :)
- then I do not know what to tell you because I'm quite sure that 
Apache or Mozilla are not managed by vote of people.


In the end, time will tell, but can you cite another successful open 
source project with such "model"?

Sorry I do not have the time to know.
We want an doit model: doing in things should be more important than suh 
having needs (even if clients and users are important)


4. You have a very negative opinion about our design choices.
That’s ok, but we are not going to remove GT just because you
dislike it.


It's not because of just my dislike. It's because it was never 
proposed for inclusion (it was just decided), it is because you make 
it almost impossible to uninstall it, and because it was integrated 
very early like an enhacement/future/vision set of tools without any 
votes, or high-resistance policy like many Open-Source projects, and 
judging by the volume of mails it required a lot of of time of 
beta-testing by many users.

You mean beside me someone was not really happy?
Seriously?
Now you can not use Spotter so I do not see the problem.
The Debugger is working well.
Playground looks like a default workspace.
Then GTInspector works perfectly for me.


I would love to have the time to invite you, or any GT developer, to 
work with me just one week with real DNA data, and see how well GT goes...


Please do a skype sharing session with Andrei and Doru. I'm sure that 
they will love to do it.

So I take your words and urge you do it.
It will help you to get out your frsutration and I'm sure that GT will 
improve.

So a clear win/win situation.


Maybe I should be sorry for not being as obedient and blindly 
accepting all board decisions as the word of God, as many on this list.

Can you imagine one moment that people like it?




Understood, what makes me most sad is users almost accepted they 
cannot do better and if they do, their work will never be integrated 
by default.

No do better.
Why I started Spec when ther was Glamour. Why Alain was working on Calipso?
I would love that someone comes and tell me: take XX it is super hyper 
cool UI Builder.


Instead, non-voters decisions discourages users to be rewarded for 
their creativity, and imposes many others to work free "supporting" 
tools which were imposed de facto.


So again, I cannot stress this enough: Is my job to say no. I know
I hurt some people but social development is complicated.
I do not think I do a bad job :)


Me neither, but you cannot expect conformity from all of us.

Hernán

cheers!
Esteban


On 24 Aug 2016, at 09:38, stepharo > wrote:

Hi Hernan

First thanks for your email because we may disagree but we often
agree. :) so this is an email for me.

Hi Stef,

Good communication implies being clear when writing about
sensitive topics, especially when communicating through virtual
channels. I am not in Europe, so I cannot discuss these things
with you face to face.

This is what we want to change with montly videos meeting.

Therefore is not clear to me (and others) what are your policies
in many subjects. Lately I also delayed the release of packages

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Hernán Morales Durand]

Now I will try to be more positive.

2016-08-24 4:38 GMT-03:00 stepharo :

> Hi Hernan
>
> First thanks for your email because we may disagree but we often agree. :)
> so this is an email for me.
>
> Hi Stef,
>
> Good communication implies being clear when writing about sensitive
> topics, especially when communicating through virtual channels. I am not in
> Europe, so I cannot discuss these things with you face to face.
>
> This is what we want to change with montly videos meeting.
>

Good initiative, thanks!

> Therefore is not clear to me (and others) what are your policies in many
> subjects. Lately I also delayed the release of packages because my lack of
> motivation around this community, specially when discussions exists around
> three or fourth topics for months.
>
>
> Like what?
> Let us know because we do not
>

I don't get why we don't have more discussions about end-developer tools :
XML, i18n, GIS, simulation & expert systems, big data, reporting...



> Another "motivational" case for me. I stopped to report bugs in fogbuz
> because I felt there was too much "Won't fix" for me (specifically by a
> person but I won't go there...) even in cases where it was ilogical. Then I
> felt tired of reading "It's like that. Invalid".
>
> This is a pity.
> I know the feeling because some of mine are close too. You are not the
> only victim of the "Issue closing syndrom" ;).
> And I would like the syndrome to be more human friendly. Thanks for
> raising this point.
>
> Now two points
> - You should always send a mail to the mailing-list and that we
> discuss your points.
>
> - Now what will happen if we all open bugs and none of us works on the
> open bugs.
> So what is the solution for you. I mean it concretely. How to deal with
> dying
>
> Looking at bugs is really difficult. There are not enough people looking
> and fixing bugs.
>
>
I think you could implement some reward system for devs with more bug
fixes: Interviews, consortium membership, maybe voting on some issues...?


> About features.
>
> What's the policy about voting for default features in next Pharo images?
> Let's suppose I am a VM/core Pharo maintainer and I want to include
> MySuperPackage into a Pharo release, which nobody needs (and I don't care),
> but it is useful to me there will ever be voting there? (note it
> doesn't makes sense if you are a group of 50 always supporting your work)
>
>
> It does not really work because engineers are paid for certain task.
>
> Images are becoming huge (at least for my workflows). There will be (more)
> packages included by default (for promotion?) ?
>
> Thanks to raise this point because I mentioned it also to the board. So I
> like when I'm not alone.
> Now we should not see look only at the size. Doing nothing is size zero :)
> The point is what are the functionalities delivered.
>
> Three points:
> - what are the key things we want?
> keybinding, settings, cool inspector cool
>
> - how many duplicated functionality can we remove:
> for example I want to merge MCDefinitions with Ring with
> RBDefinition
> we removed pseudo*
> but this is a lot of work
>
> The goal is to throw many system when bloc and brick are ready
>
> - what is the list of things that you would remove?
>
>
To me there a couple of things which must have two versions (considering we
lack a sub-image where to do image repairing).

- Inspector:
-- One cool (this seems will ever be GT)
-- One bullet-proof very very limited (to repair GT when broken, or minimal
image)

- System Browser
-- One cool (like Nautilus)
-- One standard (to not have an unusable image if the cool one gets broken)

- with the bootstrap and all the packages of the image managed with
> Cargo plus the git management
> we believe that we will be able to manage a set of images with minimal
> images.
> - this is several years that we are working on this goal.
> Believe me this is the vision document not for the sake of it.
>
> How do you plan to manage if some people want the Tests be removed from
> the official Image? (Personally I never run them)
>
> - then you use a jenkins job to produce your image where you unload
> the tests.
>
>
I see, never tried Jenkins for real (but maybe rethorical question: is that
true users need all the Tests in the image? To test a package like
Graphics-Test?)


> Another example, what happens if another research group came with a better
> alternative to Calypso, Brick, Telescope, Bloc. Would you integrate first
> your tool to mark territory?
>
>
> No this is not a question of territory. Doru and GT does not do that
> in that spirit.
> RMOD too. We do something when we think that this is better.
> For example Epicea is three years of work of Martin, Fuel was so nice
> that we could not lose it.
> You see Ghost got changed by denis, Seamless got rewritten from
> scratch.
>
>
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Hernán Morales Durand]

Hi, Esteban,

Please don't take this personal, but we have differences :)

2016-08-24 5:06 GMT-03:00 Esteban Lorenzano :

> Hi,
>
> I want to point just a couple of things:
>
> 1. You may feel hurt, but is my job to say no. If you think I’m doing a
> bad job, is your right to discuss, but do not expect that what you consider
> a bad design decision would be shared by the board (and me as executor of
> board policies).
>
>
Then it makes no sense raise any form of criticism, or the board, if by
definition lobby groups silence any possible mistake.


> 2. Features that goes inside Pharo are not decided by vote. They have to
> add value and share the Pharo vision (pointed in the vision document who is
> not slightly updated but still guides our steps). We try to reach consensus
> and if it is not possible, then we decide. Yes, is like that… I’m sorry for
> not being perfect democratic but this was never the idea of Pharo (it *has*
> a benevolent dictator… who by the way is not me but a group, the board).
>
>
Ok, now people can see one reason why Pharo is light years from the
popularity of other OSS. I don't get how do you expect success with Pharo
if you never change your mindset... I read a lot of papers and see KDE,
gcc, Linux, NetBeans, Python, Mozilla, Apache collaboration models... never
*ever* read something like that, specially now where OSS literature is
considering distributed democracy.

In the end, time will tell, but can you cite another successful open source
project with such "model"?



> 3. TxText vs. Twisty is a bad example (or a good example of how people can
> interpret things that does not know in a complete missed direction… our
> fault, this has to be communicated better)… what actually happened is that
> Igor and Denis discussed the design and they had a disagreement, but Denis
> shared the vision of Igor… just no time to wait for it because he was
> working pressures, so he delivered Twisty… I love twisty and I use it a lot
> in my personal projects, but this was like that… also, not all useful
> things needs to be inside Pharo…
>
> 4. You have a very negative opinion about our design choices. That’s ok,
> but we are not going to remove GT just because you dislike it.
>

It's not because of just my dislike. It's because it was never proposed for
inclusion (it was just decided), it is because you make it almost
impossible to uninstall it, and because it was integrated very early like
an enhacement/future/vision set of tools without any votes, or
high-resistance policy like many Open-Source projects, and judging by the
volume of mails it required a lot of of time of beta-testing by many users.

I would love to have the time to invite you, or any GT developer, to work
with me just one week with real DNA data, and see how well GT goes...

Maybe I should be sorry for not being as obedient and blindly accepting all
board decisions as the word of God, as many on this list.


> What we will do is to iterate over it until we have a version that
> satisfies most people and hopefully you too… but this is like that, GT
> tools is our vision for the future development tools and it will stay…
> improved, of course.
>
Which also means that we will not accept the inclusion of alternative
> tools. like another workspace or browser… Thierry did an excellent  job
> with his AltBrowser, and we look a lot at it to take ideas, but we will not
> include it either and that does not means we have a problem with him… What
> we want it more people helping us to improve the GT tools and just asking
> for removal does not help.
>
>
Understood, what makes me most sad is users almost accepted they cannot do
better and if they do, their work will never be integrated by default.
Instead, non-voters decisions discourages users to be rewarded for their
creativity, and imposes many others to work free "supporting" tools which
were imposed de facto.


> So again, I cannot stress this enough: Is my job to say no. I know I hurt
> some people but social development is complicated.
> I do not think I do a bad job :)
>
>
Me neither, but you cannot expect conformity from all of us.

Hernán



> cheers!
> Esteban
>
> On 24 Aug 2016, at 09:38, stepharo  wrote:
>
> Hi Hernan
>
> First thanks for your email because we may disagree but we often agree. :)
> so this is an email for me.
>
> Hi Stef,
>
> Good communication implies being clear when writing about sensitive
> topics, especially when communicating through virtual channels. I am not in
> Europe, so I cannot discuss these things with you face to face.
>
> This is what we want to change with montly videos meeting.
>
> Therefore is not clear to me (and others) what are your policies in many
> subjects. Lately I also delayed the release of packages because my lack of
> motivation around this community, specially when discussions exists around
> three or fourth topics for months.
>
>
> Like what?
> Let us know because we do not
>
> Another 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Esteban Lorenzano]

> On 24 Aug 2016, at 10:07, Gour  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 09:38:20 +0200
> stepharo  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
>> Looking at bugs is really difficult. There are not enough people
>> looking and fixing bugs.
> 
> just a short note from a Pharo noob...it is, imho, very strange that one
> cannot even take a look at bugs *without* creating account at tracker.
> 
> By having ability to, at least, skim at bugs and see if there are some
> low-hanging fruits to tackle, maybe more work could be accomplished?
> 
> Having issue tracker closed for the public emits, imho, not very
> friendly signal to potential contributors.

yes, this is bad but fogbugz is a company that does issue tracking for big 
companies, not open source projects so they do not have this feature. You may 
ask then why we use them… is because we used to use google issue tracker and 
when they dropped support we needed some replacement. Long story short, none of 
the open issue tracker offered what we needed and fogbugz people kindly offered 
to give us a free account. 
Now we would like to solve this problem but is hard to leave because migration 
is a lot of work and also (very important) because maybe fogbugz does not looks 
super cool, but is an *excellent* tool for tracking our issues… so we would 
need to find time to define a news process if we want to use, for example 
github or atlassian…

cheers, 
Esteban

> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> Gour
> 
> -- 
> Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.
> Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him.
> The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because
> they have seen the truth.
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Gour]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 09:38:20 +0200
stepharo  wrote:

Hello,

> Looking at bugs is really difficult. There are not enough people
> looking and fixing bugs.

just a short note from a Pharo noob...it is, imho, very strange that one
cannot even take a look at bugs *without* creating account at tracker.

By having ability to, at least, skim at bugs and see if there are some
low-hanging fruits to tackle, maybe more work could be accomplished?

Having issue tracker closed for the public emits, imho, not very
friendly signal to potential contributors.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.
Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him.
The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because
they have seen the truth.

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Esteban Lorenzano]

Hi, 

I want to point just a couple of things: 

1. You may feel hurt, but is my job to say no. If you think I’m doing a bad 
job, is your right to discuss, but do not expect that what you consider a bad 
design decision would be shared by the board (and me as executor of board 
policies).

2. Features that goes inside Pharo are not decided by vote. They have to add 
value and share the Pharo vision (pointed in the vision document who is not 
slightly updated but still guides our steps). We try to reach consensus and if 
it is not possible, then we decide. Yes, is like that… I’m sorry for not being 
perfect democratic but this was never the idea of Pharo (it *has* a benevolent 
dictator… who by the way is not me but a group, the board). 

3. TxText vs. Twisty is a bad example (or a good example of how people can 
interpret things that does not know in a complete missed direction… our fault, 
this has to be communicated better)… what actually happened is that Igor and 
Denis discussed the design and they had a disagreement, but Denis shared the 
vision of Igor… just no time to wait for it because he was working pressures, 
so he delivered Twisty… I love twisty and I use it a lot in my personal 
projects, but this was like that… also, not all useful things needs to be 
inside Pharo… 

4. You have a very negative opinion about our design choices. That’s ok, but we 
are not going to remove GT just because you dislike it. What we will do is to 
iterate over it until we have a version that satisfies most people and 
hopefully you too… but this is like that, GT tools is our vision for the future 
development tools and it will stay… improved, of course. 
Which also means that we will not accept the inclusion of alternative tools. 
like another workspace or browser… Thierry did an excellent  job with his 
AltBrowser, and we look a lot at it to take ideas, but we will not include it 
either and that does not means we have a problem with him… What we want it more 
people helping us to improve the GT tools and just asking for removal does not 
help. 

So again, I cannot stress this enough: Is my job to say no. I know I hurt some 
people but social development is complicated. 
I do not think I do a bad job :)

cheers!
Esteban

> On 24 Aug 2016, at 09:38, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> Hi Hernan
> 
> First thanks for your email because we may disagree but we often agree. :) so 
> this is an email for me.
>> Hi Stef, 
>> 
>> Good communication implies being clear when writing about sensitive topics, 
>> especially when communicating through virtual channels. I am not in Europe, 
>> so I cannot discuss these things with you face to face.
> This is what we want to change with montly videos meeting. 
>> Therefore is not clear to me (and others) what are your policies in many 
>> subjects. Lately I also delayed the release of packages because my lack of 
>> motivation around this community, specially when discussions exists around 
>> three or fourth topics for months.
> 
> Like what?
> Let us know because we do not 
>> Another "motivational" case for me. I stopped to report bugs in fogbuz 
>> because I felt there was too much "Won't fix" for me (specifically by a 
>> person but I won't go there...) even in cases where it was ilogical. Then I 
>> felt tired of reading "It's like that. Invalid".
> This is a pity. 
> I know the feeling because some of mine are close too. You are not the only 
> victim of the "Issue closing syndrom" ;). 
> And I would like the syndrome to be more human friendly. Thanks for raising 
> this point. 
> 
> Now two points
> - You should always send a mail to the mailing-list and that we discuss 
> your points. 
> 
> - Now what will happen if we all open bugs and none of us works on the 
> open bugs. 
> So what is the solution for you. I mean it concretely. How to deal with dying 
> 
> Looking at bugs is really difficult. There are not enough people looking and 
> fixing bugs. 
> 
>> About features.
>> 
>> What's the policy about voting for default features in next Pharo images? 
>> Let's suppose I am a VM/core Pharo maintainer and I want to include 
>> MySuperPackage into a Pharo release, which nobody needs (and I don't care), 
>> but it is useful to me there will ever be voting there? (note it doesn't 
>> makes sense if you are a group of 50 always supporting your work)
> 
> It does not really work because engineers are paid for certain task. 
>> Images are becoming huge (at least for my workflows). There will be (more) 
>> packages included by default (for promotion?) ?
> Thanks to raise this point because I mentioned it also to the board. So I 
> like when I'm not alone.
> Now we should not see look only at the size. Doing nothing is size zero :)
> The point is what are the functionalities delivered. 
> 
> Three points: 
> - what are the key things we want?
> keybinding, settings, cool inspector cool
> 
> - how many duplicated functionality can we 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

Hi Hernan

First thanks for your email because we may disagree but we often agree. 
:) so this is an email for me.

Hi Stef,

Good communication implies being clear when writing about sensitive 
topics, especially when communicating through virtual channels. I am 
not in Europe, so I cannot discuss these things with you face to face.

This is what we want to change with montly videos meeting.
Therefore is not clear to me (and others) what are your policies in 
many subjects. Lately I also delayed the release of packages because 
my lack of motivation around this community, specially when 
discussions exists around three or fourth topics for months.


Like what?
Let us know because we do not
Another "motivational" case for me. I stopped to report bugs in fogbuz 
because I felt there was too much "Won't fix" for me (specifically by 
a person but I won't go there...) even in cases where it was ilogical. 
Then I felt tired of reading "It's like that. Invalid".

This is a pity.
I know the feeling because some of mine are close too. You are not the 
only victim of the "Issue closing syndrom" ;).
And I would like the syndrome to be more human friendly. Thanks for 
raising this point.


Now two points
- You should always send a mail to the mailing-list and that we 
discuss your points.


- Now what will happen if we all open bugs and none of us works on 
the open bugs.
So what is the solution for you. I mean it concretely. How to deal with 
dying


Looking at bugs is really difficult. There are not enough people looking 
and fixing bugs.



About features.

What's the policy about voting for default features in next Pharo 
images? Let's suppose I am a VM/core Pharo maintainer and I want to 
include MySuperPackage into a Pharo release, which nobody needs (and I 
don't care), but it is useful to me there will ever be voting 
there? (note it doesn't makes sense if you are a group of 50 always 
supporting your work)


It does not really work because engineers are paid for certain task.
Images are becoming huge (at least for my workflows). There will be 
(more) packages included by default (for promotion?) ?
Thanks to raise this point because I mentioned it also to the board. So 
I like when I'm not alone.

Now we should not see look only at the size. Doing nothing is size zero :)
The point is what are the functionalities delivered.

Three points:
- what are the key things we want?
keybinding, settings, cool inspector cool

- how many duplicated functionality can we remove:
for example I want to merge MCDefinitions with Ring with 
RBDefinition

we removed pseudo*
but this is a lot of work

The goal is to throw many system when bloc and brick are ready

- what is the list of things that you would remove?

- with the bootstrap and all the packages of the image managed with 
Cargo plus the git management
we believe that we will be able to manage a set of images with 
minimal images.

- this is several years that we are working on this goal.
Believe me this is the vision document not for the sake of it.

How do you plan to manage if some people want the Tests be removed 
from the official Image? (Personally I never run them)
- then you use a jenkins job to produce your image where you unload 
the tests.


Another example, what happens if another research group came with a 
better alternative to Calypso, Brick, Telescope, Bloc. Would you 
integrate first your tool to mark territory?


No this is not a question of territory. Doru and GT does not do 
that in that spirit.

RMOD too. We do something when we think that this is better.
For example Epicea is three years of work of Martin, Fuel was so 
nice that we could not lose it.
You see Ghost got changed by denis, Seamless got rewritten from 
scratch.



Who decides? For example (IIRC) TxText and Twisty.
Igor looked at Twisty seriously and I do not think that it could 
handle large cobol files.


(you see funnily denis is doing the same with Seamless - He rewrote 
it from scratch while

nick worked on it for several years).

Igor wanted to have a stream-based API that could work on modern 
command-oriented videos card framework.

My team (on our own money if you understand what it means)
paid Igor to build TxText (and I can tell you that I would have 
prefered him to do something else).



The same applies if anyone came with another rewrite of classic 
Smalltalk Workspace, Debugger and Inspector tools, what would you do 
with GT? GT stays because it came before and others would be optional?

No this is not like that.
If you are better or answer better needs.


There will be anything like PEPs?

I would love but will people have the energy to implement them?
I would definitively encourage you as a community to raise points 
on what you need.


If someone can answer me I think that would be an 

Re: [Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[Hernán Morales Durand]

Hi Stef,

Good communication implies being clear when writing about sensitive topics,
especially when communicating through virtual channels. I am not in Europe,
so I cannot discuss these things with you face to face. Therefore is not
clear to me (and others) what are your policies in many subjects. Lately I
also delayed the release of packages because my lack of motivation around
this community, specially when discussions exists around three or fourth
topics for months.

Another "motivational" case for me. I stopped to report bugs in fogbuz
because I felt there was too much "Won't fix" for me (specifically by a
person but I won't go there...) even in cases where it was ilogical. Then I
felt tired of reading "It's like that. Invalid".

About features.

What's the policy about voting for default features in next Pharo images?
Let's suppose I am a VM/core Pharo maintainer and I want to include
MySuperPackage into a Pharo release, which nobody needs (and I don't care),
but it is useful to me there will ever be voting there? (note it
doesn't makes sense if you are a group of 50 always supporting your work)

Images are becoming huge (at least for my workflows). There will be (more)
packages included by default (for promotion?) ?

How do you plan to manage if some people want the Tests be removed from the
official Image? (Personally I never run them)

Another example, what happens if another research group came with a better
alternative to Calypso, Brick, Telescope, Bloc. Would you integrate first
your tool to mark territory? Who decides? For example (IIRC) TxText and
Twisty. The same applies if anyone came with another rewrite of classic
Smalltalk Workspace, Debugger and Inspector tools, what would you do with
GT? GT stays because it came before and others would be optional?

There will be anything like PEPs?

If someone can answer me I think that would be an example of good
communication.

Hernán


2016-08-24 1:51 GMT-03:00 stepharo :

> Hi guys
>
> the board got a good discussion at ESUG about how to improve and a lot of
> the discussion turned around improving communication. We got some ideas
> that we will propose soon but I would like to get *your* ideas.
>
> If you have idea about improving communication around pharo please tell us.
>
>
> Stef
>
>
>

[Pharo-dev] About better communication in the community

[stepharo]

Hi guys

the board got a good discussion at ESUG about how to improve and a lot 
of the discussion turned around improving communication. We got some 
ideas that we will propose soon but I would like to get *your* ideas.


If you have idea about improving communication around pharo please tell us.


Stef