Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

[Keith Addison]

Hello Tom


Hi folks,

I hope everyone is reading all the attachments to articles on this topic.


I'd hoped everyone would be reading the responses, but it seems not, 
in your case:


Somebody quoted it as a source and I told him it's an anti-source. 
The links at the Weekly Standard entry at Disinfopedia unearth 
virtually the whole web of deceit:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Weekly_Standard
Weekly Standard Magazine - SourceWatch


http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-August/002200.html

[Biofuel] Fw: [HDR] August 06, 2005 -- date of risk?


I found the one in the Weekly Standard to be very credible.


Sorry, but I think that's hilarious! The Weekly Standard credible! ROFL

Keith


Thanks Greg and April for this information. Perhaps that´s my own 
personal bias. How would you attack this Chris B. and Hakan? More 
government propaganda?


Why Truman Dropped the Bomb
From the August 8, 2005 issue: Sixty years after Hiroshima, we now 
have the secret intercepts that shaped his decision.

by Richard B. Frank
08/08/2005, Volume 010, Issue 44

Tom Irwin





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:49:37 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

doug,

*Part* of the Japanese government was trying to find a way to surrender,

you've been misinformed. this is a misrepresentation of the facts. it was
hirohito himself, quite on his own, that asked the soviets to mediate a peace.
later, the government junta voted unanimously in favor of sending an envoy to
moscow. the peace faction and the hardliners had their own reasons for
supporting the idea, but the point is that they took that action in 
the first place

because hirohito wanted them to.

these events transpired because the situation in japan was progressively
deteriorating. there were growing fears that total social and 
economic collapse,

and, therefore, most likely political collapse as well, were imminent.

furthermore, it was not the united states' intent to force a quick surrender
by using the bombs. that simply did not enter into the calculus i.e. saving
so many american or japanese lives was not the motivation for nuking japan.

It's not clear that the U.S. population would
have accepted just hanging around fully mobilized at war waiting for
six months or a year until the Japanese

you're presenting kind of a worst case scenario of how a blockade strategy,
as opposed to invading, might have unfolded. besides, the disposition of the
american people is a red herring and highly speculative (another echo of the
'aussie gun control' argument). nor does it have any bearing on whether or
not bombing hiroshima and nagasaki were inhumane.

-chris b.



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Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

[Doug Younker]

Well.. I would have to think a 22 MPG SUV is a step above the 13-16 MPG SUV
of 25 to 30 years ago.  As long as families continue to have 3, 4 or more
kids, with some of them being 6 foot giants the demand, for larger vehicles
isn't going to subside soon.  Shoot it's going to be difficult enough to
reduce the miles those vehicles are being driven.
Doug, N0LKK

From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes


 I read that.  Diesel will only help if combined w/ high mileage cars,
 hybrid and bio.  To go to diesel so Americans can get 22 mpg in their
 SUVs is pretty silly.


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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[Doug Younker]

Respectfully;  Have to? AFAIK there are still grain varieties that allow
producers to save grain from the current crop to plant the next crop.  As
well as heritage fruits and vegetables, that can go year to year,
generation to generation.  Perhaps from the standpoint of production numbers
and cash flow, Ag producers may have to, I don't know.  I haven't had
access to farm journals for quite some time now, is this all becoming a
concern for the Ag. producers in general?
Doug, N0LKK
- Original Message - 
From: Alt.EnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism


 Yes Monsanto and others have used absolutely dispicable tactics against
some U.S. and Canadian farmers
 who found some of their gm plants on their land. I also understand that
they just purchased the largest seed coumpany in the world. Name escapes me
right now but that particular seed co. supplies most of the worlds
 vegetable and fruit seeds. I fear what these megacorps have planned with
teminator seeds for tomatoes, lettuce and virtually all our fruits and
vegtables once manipulated to not produce viable seeds or germinate the next
year. They are programmed to die after one season so farmers have to buy a
new batch of seeds each year from ...guess who?


 regards
 tallex





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 ---Original Message---
  From: Richard B [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism
  Sent: 08 Aug '05 18:34
 
   Monsanto is a prime player in predatory, monopolistic practices, trying
   to pass laws to lock the little guy out. Check out
   http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=343. If Monsanto has its way, we will
   have to pay royalties to do anything with seeds, including growing
   plants to produce biofuels.
 
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 ---Original Message---

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Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history

[Doug Younker]

That or simply stating the belief that, God did shed, his grace on America.
In the event that make Americans guilty of pride, I'll let others figure
out.
Doug, N0LKK
- Original Message - 
From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in
history


 I perceive it as a simple request.

 Greg H.

 - Original Message - 
 From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:00
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in
 history


 
  As far as God shed his grace, I've often wondered if those words
  represent an invocation, an iteration of fact, or simply an excuse.
  (After all, who are WE to tell God to do anything?)  But the claim
  rings false, as is evidenced by our collective behavior.  We are no
  better than the great nations that preceded us, though we often like
  to think ourselves as qualitatively superior.  (So did the Brits, so
  did the Romans, so did the Helenes, and so forth . . . )
 


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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

[capt3d]

typical think-tank rubbish.  an opinion piece masquerading as serious (and 
unimpeachable, of course!) historical analysis.

the thing is, the piece is desperately short on analysis, though long on 
subtext.  he rather selectively piles up a bunch of data  about the tactical 
situation in the pacific.  all more or less correct, but he frames it in a 
manner 
that is neither organic nor very coherent.  most importantly, however, is that 
only a single sentence fragment (in parenthesis, to boot) in the entire piece 
directly addresses the question proposed in the title:

On August 7 (the day after Hiroshima, which no one expected to prompt a 
quick surrender). . . .

let me give that to you again, in case it flew by too fast (precisely the 
author's intent):

. . .the day after Hiroshima, which no one expected to prompt a quick 
surrender. . . .

so then, why *did* truman drop the bomb?

-chris b.


In a message dated 8/8/05 6:25:48 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I hope everyone is reading all the attachments to articles on this topic. 
I found the one in the Weekly Standard to be very credible. Thanks Greg and 
April for this information. Perhaps that´s my own personal bias. How would you 
attack this Chris B. and Hakan? More government propaganda? 

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RE: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

[burak-l]

Hello;

You will get far more than 22mpg with diesel.
Unless of course you are looking for very large capacity engine (like 6
litres) which and average city user does not need.

Over here (outside of USA) you  can buy 2.5 to 3.5 litre diesel engined
SUV's and Vans.
You will get at least 25mpg.  And these are 4x4 heavy duty machines.

Or you can get small capacity diesel cars (example 1.6 litre Hyundai Getz)
and you get something
like 40 miles to a gallon easily. These are real life values including city
traffic (not test values).

I have looked at the article, it mentiones that in US the refineries do not
have the capacity for the diesel production.
Well hey  maybe this is a great opportunity for bio-diesel  Start using
the vegetable oil or even better
waste vegetable oil.  You will save the environment, create jobs for local
farmers and pollute far less.
I would estimate that for  a bio-diesel plant it will take maximum 6 months
from scratch to be operational.
And you can use the local farmers produce or local restaurants WVO (and save
the pollution).
Even better if you have the talent like many in this list you can make it at
home, and save a bundle...

Article also mentions that diesel prices are soaring.  Yes this is true. I
can tell you that this is a great
tax revenue for all of the government.  I can tell you that over here there
are less taxes on biodiesel.
The government actually supports the BD production.  Therefore the BD sells
for less than normal diesel.
To save more please refer to the last sentence of the previous paragraph.

There is one more issue about commercial transportation.  We need to build
more railroads.  Trucking everything
wil not be feasible.  Again in Turkiye I believe we have the largest truck
population in Europe.  But at the end of the
day no matter how many roads you build they are always congested and the
accident rates are difficult to control.
For commercial transportation you need to build railroads and develop the
seaways.

So there is a solution for all of the claims this article makes.  It all
comes down to the personal choice of each individual.
Do we want to solve problems?  Or do we prefer to enjoy the luxury of
wasting energy?  I gues our kids will be the one
to appreciate our efforts or put the blame on us.

regards

Burak
Istanbul, Turkiye

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Weaver
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:21 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes


I read that.  Diesel will only help if combined w/ high mileage cars,
hybrid and bio.  To go to diesel so Americans can get 22 mpg in their
SUVs is pretty silly.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Click here: Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/07/AR200508070
0888.html


 FYI.  No mention of biodiesel to augment supplies.



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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

[capt3d]

i forgot to mention, if you hadn't figured out what that weekly standard 
piece was all about by the time you'd reached the author's fifth coded 
reference 
to the pro-communist, pro-gay agenda, tree-hugging, tax-and-spend, 
anti-patriotic, anti-american, anti-life, terrorist-loving liberal elite, then 
the final 
sentence certainly should have tipped you off.

-chris b.

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Re: [Biofuel] guns

[Doug Younker]

Rattlesnakes do strike without provocation, I just don't want them around,
but I don't go out of my way to seek them out to hunt them down.  I would
rather the bull snakes handle the rodent population.
Doug
- Original Message - 
From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] guns


 Greetings,

 Rattlesnakes are not aggressive and I never kill them.  They head the
other
 direction when they hear you coming, so why kill them?  They do kill rats
 and mice that carry disease, so the snakes are welcome unless they decide
 to become egg poachers, then unfortunately I have to kill them.  I only
 kill snakes that attack with no provocation, while you are sitting still
 and they find you.

 As I said, I keep the guns on my farm.  I generally carry my 380 in a
 shoulder holster, easier to work with than a shot gun.

 Bright Blessings,
 Kim


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[Biofuel] opps, guns, sorry

[Doug Younker]

Just realized I posted with a banned subject line.  Where it had little to
do with chain letter, I should have changed the subject line to better
reflect the content.  Can only hope Keith is in an easy mood today.  Anyway
anything with  [Biofuel] guns in the subject field is ruled to be deleted,
if I don't see it I can't break the rules.  Yes I know I should have done
that right off, but I didn't.
Doug


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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[Guag Meister]

Hi Keith and Doug and All ;

Respectfully, you are absolutely correct that you can
still by seeds that are heirloom.  This is the
present time.  What is frightening is the direction
that the planet is headed.

How long before these heirloom seed suppliers are
bought by the agro giants?  How long before some gene
sneaks into the heirloom verieties and patent
infringment money is due?  What to do when two
different genes from two (or more!) different
companies are in your crop?  You'll be sue'ed from
every direction.

Respectfully we all need to wake up.  It will not be
long (like 100 years) that ALL life forms (including
animals) will be patented.  Anyone think that this
will guarantee quality?

Governments need to invalidate ANY and ALL patents on
life forms.  And while they are at it they should make
it illegal to sell seeds which bear sterile seeds.   

Best Regards,

Peter G.


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Re: [Biofuel] Improving Ethanol Distilation Efficiency

[Guag Meister]

Hi Marilyn ;

I understand that castor oil absorbes ethanol but not
water.  

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html

Best Regards,

Peter G.
Thailand

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I know someone who developed a way to remove alcohol
 during 
 fermentation, which would greatly cut the cost of
 making ethanol. 
 I am trying to find people to link up with to
 replicate the process 
 because he has dropped it. I did a search for
 remove alcohol 
 during fermentation on your web site and on google
 and found 
 nothing. Does anyone out there know of someone who
 has done 
 this?
 Marilyn
 
 
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:
 Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 It takes approximately the same energy to produce
 ethanol, as 
 you get out of using ethanol. ...The distillation
 process is the 
 major loss of energy.
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Kim, 

Thanks for the info, I suppose there are not any bright breeds that will actually feed themselves. I´ve never had Muscovy ducks. Someone once told me they taste a little like veal. Any truth to this?

Tom Irwin



From: Garth  Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:54:48 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] TurkeysGreetings,Depending on the breed, turkeys can be really stupid. They will starve to death standing in a pile of food. Extremely careful research is called for or you will be hand feeding your babies every couple of hours. It is not fun. Muscovy ducks are fun and taste real good.Bright Blessings,KimAt 07:46 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:Hi All,Aside from the ongoing debate, here is a practical question. Since turkeys, (the edible kind) are relatively rare where I live, I thought they might be a more profitable bird to raise than chickens. I still plan on raising muscovy ducks since they seem relatively low maintenence. How does raising turkeys differ from raising chickens? As a larger bird are they more hardy? Do they eat the same feed?Still learning,Tom Irwin___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

[Mike Weaver]

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:
H Kim,

I'm looking more for control of very small patches.  I use a whacker 
mostly, but a few places need a squirt.  I can't imagine it would be 
more than an ounce or so.



Greetings,
Concentrated vinegar, sprayed on a hot sunny day will kill post 
emergent weeds, if it does not rain within the next few days.  It will 
also kill any earthworms it comes in contact with. If used too much, 
it will also affect the ph of your soil and harm some of the bacteria, 
but the effect is not lasting beyond the next good rain.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 04:09 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:

Arrgg. Why did you have send that? Now I have get rid of a gallon of 
that crap. Anyone know how to render it safe before disposal?
Also, does anyone have any ideas on using concentrated vinegar to 
control weeds?


I had no idea it was so deadly.

-Mike


Michael Redler wrote:


More on Roundup and Monsanto:
*Drugs war in Columbia - the true cost
*The true cost of the US's so-called drugs war in Columbia (see 
Environment Health News 16 p13) is mounting. There have now been 
4,000 human and 178,000 animal reported cases of serious skin, eye, 
respiratory and digestive problems due to the mass spraying of 
Monsanto's Roundup and Roundup Ultra herbicides.

[more]
http://www.ehn.clara.net/pesticides.html
*Monsanto
A brief introduction to the Monsanto Corporation*
Monsanto is a humanitarian's worst nightmare. A company who plays
the PR game so well that many of the people who consume their 
products have never even heard of them, they were responsible for 
manufacturing Agent Orange, the extremely toxic defoliant which the 
U.S. military sprayed all over Vietnam (and consequently, also 
American GI's) in the 60s and 70's. Agent Orange, which contained 
large amounts of the deadly chemical Dioxin, has now been banned 
worldwide and is still affecting the Vietnamese people two 
generations later. It is also largely believed to be the main cause 
for many of the illnesses associated with soldiers returning home 
from Vietnam. From 1962 to 1970, the US military sprayed 72 million 
liters of herbicides, mostly Agent Orange, on over one million 
Vietnamese civilians and over 100,000 U.S. troops. As a result, 
within ten years of the close of the war, 9,170 veterans had filed 
claims for disabilities caused by Agent Orange. The VA denied 
compensation to 7,709, saying that a facial rash was the only 
disease associated with exposure. In 2002, Vietnam requested 
assistance in dealing with the tens of thousands of birth defects 
due to Agent Orange. In order to avoid medical compensation 
expenses, Monsanto continues to claim this now banned chemical is 
not toxic.
Monsanto's most commonly used product on the market today is 
glyphosate, or Roundup. It is a similarly deadly defoliant that is 
used to eradicate invasive plants around telephone poles, on 
sidewalks and farms all over the world and most commonly within the 
US. One of the major consumers of Roundup is the United States 
military, who under the guise of the War on Drugs, sprays the 
defoliant from helicopters in and around small villages in the 
sovereign country of Columbia in South America, claiming to be 
targeting coca plantation. Coca is the mildly stimulating plant 
which is the main ingredient in the production of Cocaine 
Hydrochloride, commonly known by Americans as Coke or Cocaine.

[more]
http://www.thehumanrevolution.org/monsanto.html

*/Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:23:57 GMT
From: Pesticide Action Network North America
Subject: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

Rethinking Roundup
August 5, 2005

A recent study of Roundup presents new evidence that the
glyphosate-based herbicide is far more toxic than the active
ingredient alone. The study, published in the June 2005 issue of
Environmental Health Perspectives, reports glyphosate toxicity to
human placental cells within hours of exposure, at levels ten 
times

lower than those found in agricultural use. The researchers also
tested glyphosate and Roundup at lower concentrations for 
effects on
sexual hormones, reporting effects at very low levels. This 
suggests

that dilution with other ingredients in Roundup may, in fact,
facilitate glyphosate's hormonal impacts.

Roundup, produced by Monsanto, is a mixture of glyphosate and 
other

chemicals (commonly referred to as inerts) designed to increase
the herbicide's penetration into the target and its toxic effect.
Since inerts are not listed as active ingredients the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)does not assess their 
health or
environmental impacts, despite the fact that more than 300 
chemicals

on EPA's list of pesticide inert ingredients are or were once
registered as pesticide active ingredients, and that inert
ingredients often account for more than 50% of the pesticide 
product

by 

Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

[Garth Kim Travis]

Greetings,
Yes, plain store bought vinegar doesn't kill much but the 20% vinegar that 
is 4 times stronger can really work well in the proper conditions.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 10:35 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:

Vinegar seems to work pretty good on dandelions, not
much effect on other weeds.  I use the large jug (four
liters) size from the discount grocery store, plain
white vinegar.

Joe
--- Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Arrgg. Why did you have send that? Now I have get
 rid of a gallon of
 that crap. Anyone know how to render it safe before
 disposal?
 Also, does anyone have any ideas on using
 concentrated vinegar to
 control weeds?

 I had no idea it was so deadly.

 -Mike


 Michael Redler wrote:

  More on Roundup and Monsanto:
  *Drugs war in Columbia - the true cost
  *The true cost of the US's so-called drugs war
 in Columbia (see
  Environment Health News 16 p13) is mounting. There
 have now been 4,000
  human and 178,000 animal reported cases of serious
 skin, eye,
  respiratory and digestive problems due to the mass
 spraying of
  Monsanto's Roundup and Roundup Ultra herbicides.
  [more]
  http://www.ehn.clara.net/pesticides.html
  *Monsanto
  A brief introduction to the Monsanto Corporation*
  Monsanto is a humanitarian's worst nightmare. A
 company who plays
  the PR game so well that many of the people who
 consume their products
  have never even heard of them, they were
 responsible for manufacturing
  Agent Orange, the extremely toxic defoliant which
 the U.S. military
  sprayed all over Vietnam (and consequently, also
 American GI's) in the
  60s and 70's. Agent Orange, which contained large
 amounts of the
  deadly chemical Dioxin, has now been banned
 worldwide and is still
  affecting the Vietnamese people two generations
 later. It is also
  largely believed to be the main cause for many of
 the illnesses
  associated with soldiers returning home from
 Vietnam. From 1962 to
  1970, the US military sprayed 72 million liters of
 herbicides, mostly
  Agent Orange, on over one million Vietnamese
 civilians and over
  100,000 U.S. troops. As a result, within ten years
 of the close of the
  war, 9,170 veterans had filed claims for
 disabilities caused by Agent
  Orange. The VA denied compensation to 7,709,
 saying that a facial rash
  was the only disease associated with exposure. In
 2002, Vietnam
  requested assistance in dealing with the tens of
 thousands of birth
  defects due to Agent Orange. In order to avoid
 medical compensation
  expenses, Monsanto continues to claim this now
 banned chemical is not
  toxic.
  Monsanto's most commonly used product on the
 market today is
  glyphosate, or Roundup. It is a similarly deadly
 defoliant that is
  used to eradicate invasive plants around
 telephone poles, on
  sidewalks and farms all over the world and most
 commonly within the
  US. One of the major consumers of Roundup is the
 United States
  military, who under the guise of the War on
 Drugs, sprays the
  defoliant from helicopters in and around small
 villages in the
  sovereign country of Columbia in South America,
 claiming to be
  targeting coca plantation. Coca is the mildly
 stimulating plant which
  is the main ingredient in the production of
 Cocaine Hydrochloride,
  commonly known by Americans as Coke or
 Cocaine.
  [more]
  http://www.thehumanrevolution.org/monsanto.html
 
  */Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/*
 wrote:
 
  Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:23:57 GMT
  From: Pesticide Action Network North
 America
  Subject: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup
  
  Rethinking Roundup
  August 5, 2005
  
  A recent study of Roundup presents new
 evidence that the
  glyphosate-based herbicide is far more toxic
 than the active
  ingredient alone. The study, published in the
 June 2005 issue of
  Environmental Health Perspectives, reports
 glyphosate toxicity to
  human placental cells within hours of
 exposure, at levels ten times
  lower than those found in agricultural use.
 The researchers also
  tested glyphosate and Roundup at lower
 concentrations for effects on
  sexual hormones, reporting effects at very
 low levels. This suggests
  that dilution with other ingredients in
 Roundup may, in fact,
  facilitate glyphosate's hormonal impacts.
  
  Roundup, produced by Monsanto, is a mixture
 of glyphosate and other
  chemicals (commonly referred to as inerts)
 designed to increase
  the herbicide's penetration into the target
 and its toxic effect.
  Since inerts are not listed as active
 ingredients the U.S.
  Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)does not
 assess their health or
  environmental impacts, despite the fact that
 more than 300 chemicals
  on EPA's list of pesticide inert ingredients
 are or were once
  registered as pesticide active ingredients,
 and that inert
  ingredients often account for more than 50%
 of the pesticide product
  by volume.
  

Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

[Mike Weaver]

Where would one get it?  If I try to make I always seems to
get vinegar worms...

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings,
Yes, plain store bought vinegar doesn't kill much but the 20% vinegar 
that is 4 times stronger can really work well in the proper conditions.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 10:35 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:


Vinegar seems to work pretty good on dandelions, not
much effect on other weeds.  I use the large jug (four
liters) size from the discount grocery store, plain
white vinegar.

Joe
--- Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Arrgg. Why did you have send that? Now I have get
 rid of a gallon of
 that crap. Anyone know how to render it safe before
 disposal?
 Also, does anyone have any ideas on using
 concentrated vinegar to
 control weeds?

 I had no idea it was so deadly.

 -Mike


 Michael Redler wrote:

  More on Roundup and Monsanto:
  *Drugs war in Columbia - the true cost
  *The true cost of the US's so-called drugs war
 in Columbia (see
  Environment Health News 16 p13) is mounting. There
 have now been 4,000
  human and 178,000 animal reported cases of serious
 skin, eye,
  respiratory and digestive problems due to the mass
 spraying of
  Monsanto's Roundup and Roundup Ultra herbicides.
  [more]
  http://www.ehn.clara.net/pesticides.html
  *Monsanto
  A brief introduction to the Monsanto Corporation*
  Monsanto is a humanitarian's worst nightmare. A
 company who plays
  the PR game so well that many of the people who
 consume their products
  have never even heard of them, they were
 responsible for manufacturing
  Agent Orange, the extremely toxic defoliant which
 the U.S. military
  sprayed all over Vietnam (and consequently, also
 American GI's) in the
  60s and 70's. Agent Orange, which contained large
 amounts of the
  deadly chemical Dioxin, has now been banned
 worldwide and is still
  affecting the Vietnamese people two generations
 later. It is also
  largely believed to be the main cause for many of
 the illnesses
  associated with soldiers returning home from
 Vietnam. From 1962 to
  1970, the US military sprayed 72 million liters of
 herbicides, mostly
  Agent Orange, on over one million Vietnamese
 civilians and over
  100,000 U.S. troops. As a result, within ten years
 of the close of the
  war, 9,170 veterans had filed claims for
 disabilities caused by Agent
  Orange. The VA denied compensation to 7,709,
 saying that a facial rash
  was the only disease associated with exposure. In
 2002, Vietnam
  requested assistance in dealing with the tens of
 thousands of birth
  defects due to Agent Orange. In order to avoid
 medical compensation
  expenses, Monsanto continues to claim this now
 banned chemical is not
  toxic.
  Monsanto's most commonly used product on the
 market today is
  glyphosate, or Roundup. It is a similarly deadly
 defoliant that is
  used to eradicate invasive plants around
 telephone poles, on
  sidewalks and farms all over the world and most
 commonly within the
  US. One of the major consumers of Roundup is the
 United States
  military, who under the guise of the War on
 Drugs, sprays the
  defoliant from helicopters in and around small
 villages in the
  sovereign country of Columbia in South America,
 claiming to be
  targeting coca plantation. Coca is the mildly
 stimulating plant which
  is the main ingredient in the production of
 Cocaine Hydrochloride,
  commonly known by Americans as Coke or
 Cocaine.
  [more]
  http://www.thehumanrevolution.org/monsanto.html
 
  */Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/*
 wrote:
 
  Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:23:57 GMT
  From: Pesticide Action Network North
 America
  Subject: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup
  
  Rethinking Roundup
  August 5, 2005
  
  A recent study of Roundup presents new
 evidence that the
  glyphosate-based herbicide is far more toxic
 than the active
  ingredient alone. The study, published in the
 June 2005 issue of
  Environmental Health Perspectives, reports
 glyphosate toxicity to
  human placental cells within hours of
 exposure, at levels ten times
  lower than those found in agricultural use.
 The researchers also
  tested glyphosate and Roundup at lower
 concentrations for effects on
  sexual hormones, reporting effects at very
 low levels. This suggests
  that dilution with other ingredients in
 Roundup may, in fact,
  facilitate glyphosate's hormonal impacts.
  
  Roundup, produced by Monsanto, is a mixture
 of glyphosate and other
  chemicals (commonly referred to as inerts)
 designed to increase
  the herbicide's penetration into the target
 and its toxic effect.
  Since inerts are not listed as active
 ingredients the U.S.
  Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)does not
 assess their health or
  environmental impacts, despite the fact that
 more than 300 chemicals
  on EPA's list of pesticide inert ingredients
 are or were once
  registered as pesticide active ingredients,
 and that 

[Biofuel] When Seeds are outlawed, only outlaws will have seeds.

[Mike Weaver]

Any farmers on this list?

SCO tried something similar by suing the entire world, claiming it owned 
Linux. It failed.
Perhaps this is a good time to look into seed banks and get to work 
contacting your government representatives.


I can recommend Daniel Charles's /Lords of the Harvest: Biotechnology, 
Big Money, and the Future of Food/ (Perseus Publishing, 2001), a 
landmark account of how genetically engineered crops came to be, and how 
they became, controversial. The book has been praised in publications 
ranging from /Scientific American/ to the /Harvard Business Review/, and 
from /The Washington Post/ to /Farm Journal/.


In part because of his own experience in agriculture - he has lived and 
worked on farms in Pennsylvania and in France - Charles has devoted 
special attention to agricultural issues. He’s covered controversies 
over genetically engineered food as well as international battles over 
ownership of plant genes and the environmental impact of conventional 
agriculture.


-Mike

Guag Meister wrote:


Hi Keith and Doug and All ;

Respectfully, you are absolutely correct that you can
still by seeds that are heirloom.  This is the
present time.  What is frightening is the direction
that the planet is headed.

How long before these heirloom seed suppliers are
bought by the agro giants?  How long before some gene
sneaks into the heirloom verieties and patent
infringment money is due?  What to do when two
different genes from two (or more!) different
companies are in your crop?  You'll be sue'ed from
every direction.

Respectfully we all need to wake up.  It will not be
long (like 100 years) that ALL life forms (including
animals) will be patented.  Anyone think that this
will guarantee quality?

Governments need to invalidate ANY and ALL patents on
life forms.  And while they are at it they should make
it illegal to sell seeds which bear sterile seeds.   


Best Regards,

Peter G.


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Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

[Garth Kim Travis]

Greetings, 
There are some breeds that will actually breed and raise their own
young. I haven't had turkeys for about 5 years, so I am not naming
breeds since I would probably mix them up. The turkeys that have
been bred to have the heavy breasts are the worst, the closer to wild you
can stay, the better.
I have rarely eaten veal, I refuse to eat it since the animals are so
mistreated in the US. Muscovy tastes like duck to me, but I like
duck. I grew up eating it and only tasted veal as an adult.
What I like about the Muscovy is the number of meals it makes.
Killing a mallard duck seems silly, all that work to barely feed 2
people. I sometimes keep them just to keep the mosquitos under
control on my ponds. 

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 04:55 AM 8/9/2005, you wrote:
Hi Kim, 

Thanks for the info, I suppose there are not any bright breeds that will
actually feed themselves. I´ve never had Muscovy ducks. Someone once told
me they taste a little like veal. Any truth to this?

Tom Irwin




From: Garth  Kim Travis
[
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:54:48 -0300

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

Greetings,

Depending on the breed, turkeys can be really stupid. They will
starve to 

death standing in a pile of food. Extremely careful research is
called for 

or you will be hand feeding your babies every couple of hours. It is
not 

fun. Muscovy ducks are fun and taste real good.

Bright Blessings,

Kim

At 07:46 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:

Hi All,



Aside from the ongoing debate, here is a practical question.
Since 

turkeys, (the edible kind) are relatively rare where I live, I
thought 

they might be a more profitable bird to raise than chickens. I
still plan 

on raising muscovy ducks since they seem relatively low
maintenence. How 

does raising turkeys differ from raising chickens? As a larger
bird are 

they more hardy? Do they eat the same feed?



Still learning,



Tom Irwin





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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

[Garth Kim Travis]

Greetings,
I buy mine at the feed store.  There is a web site, but I lost it in the 
last crash, it will tell you the nearest retailer in the US and Canada.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 06:05 AM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

Where would one get it?  If I try to make I always seems to
get vinegar worms...

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings,
Yes, plain store bought vinegar doesn't kill much but the 20% vinegar 
that is 4 times stronger can really work well in the proper conditions.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 10:35 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:


Vinegar seems to work pretty good on dandelions, not
much effect on other weeds.  I use the large jug (four
liters) size from the discount grocery store, plain
white vinegar.

Joe
--- Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Arrgg. Why did you have send that? Now I have get
 rid of a gallon of
 that crap. Anyone know how to render it safe before
 disposal?
 Also, does anyone have any ideas on using
 concentrated vinegar to
 control weeds?

 I had no idea it was so deadly.

 -Mike


 Michael Redler wrote:

  More on Roundup and Monsanto:
  *Drugs war in Columbia - the true cost
  *The true cost of the US's so-called drugs war
 in Columbia (see
  Environment Health News 16 p13) is mounting. There
 have now been 4,000
  human and 178,000 animal reported cases of serious
 skin, eye,
  respiratory and digestive problems due to the mass
 spraying of
  Monsanto's Roundup and Roundup Ultra herbicides.
  [more]
  http://www.ehn.clara.net/pesticides.html
  *Monsanto
  A brief introduction to the Monsanto Corporation*
  Monsanto is a humanitarian's worst nightmare. A
 company who plays
  the PR game so well that many of the people who
 consume their products
  have never even heard of them, they were
 responsible for manufacturing
  Agent Orange, the extremely toxic defoliant which
 the U.S. military
  sprayed all over Vietnam (and consequently, also
 American GI's) in the
  60s and 70's. Agent Orange, which contained large
 amounts of the
  deadly chemical Dioxin, has now been banned
 worldwide and is still
  affecting the Vietnamese people two generations
 later. It is also
  largely believed to be the main cause for many of
 the illnesses
  associated with soldiers returning home from
 Vietnam. From 1962 to
  1970, the US military sprayed 72 million liters of
 herbicides, mostly
  Agent Orange, on over one million Vietnamese
 civilians and over
  100,000 U.S. troops. As a result, within ten years
 of the close of the
  war, 9,170 veterans had filed claims for
 disabilities caused by Agent
  Orange. The VA denied compensation to 7,709,
 saying that a facial rash
  was the only disease associated with exposure. In
 2002, Vietnam
  requested assistance in dealing with the tens of
 thousands of birth
  defects due to Agent Orange. In order to avoid
 medical compensation
  expenses, Monsanto continues to claim this now
 banned chemical is not
  toxic.
  Monsanto's most commonly used product on the
 market today is
  glyphosate, or Roundup. It is a similarly deadly
 defoliant that is
  used to eradicate invasive plants around
 telephone poles, on
  sidewalks and farms all over the world and most
 commonly within the
  US. One of the major consumers of Roundup is the
 United States
  military, who under the guise of the War on
 Drugs, sprays the
  defoliant from helicopters in and around small
 villages in the
  sovereign country of Columbia in South America,
 claiming to be
  targeting coca plantation. Coca is the mildly
 stimulating plant which
  is the main ingredient in the production of
 Cocaine Hydrochloride,
  commonly known by Americans as Coke or
 Cocaine.
  [more]
  http://www.thehumanrevolution.org/monsanto.html
 
  */Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/*
 wrote:
 
  Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:23:57 GMT
  From: Pesticide Action Network North
 America
  Subject: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup
  
  Rethinking Roundup
  August 5, 2005
  
  A recent study of Roundup presents new
 evidence that the
  glyphosate-based herbicide is far more toxic
 than the active
  ingredient alone. The study, published in the
 June 2005 issue of
  Environmental Health Perspectives, reports
 glyphosate toxicity to
  human placental cells within hours of
 exposure, at levels ten times
  lower than those found in agricultural use.
 The researchers also
  tested glyphosate and Roundup at lower
 concentrations for effects on
  sexual hormones, reporting effects at very
 low levels. This suggests
  that dilution with other ingredients in
 Roundup may, in fact,
  facilitate glyphosate's hormonal impacts.
  
  Roundup, produced by Monsanto, is a mixture
 of glyphosate and other
  chemicals (commonly referred to as inerts)
 designed to increase
  the herbicide's penetration into the target
 and its toxic effect.
  Since inerts are not listed as active
 ingredients the U.S.
  Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)does not
 assess their 

Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

[Mike Weaver]

Not in a Hummer-sized or Expedition-sized vehicle you won't!  I counted 
over 30 that don't even get 20 mpg on EPA's website.
I have a VW Golf and get at least 43-46. 

The US doesn't sell small diesels, except the Jeep, but it's so heavy it 
still get no mileage.  Isuzu was was the last carmaker to build a decent 
midsize SUV w/ a diesel - it got 30-35 or so but that was years ago.


The US needs (and will) get over its fascination w/ giant cars.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hello;

You will get far more than 22mpg with diesel.
Unless of course you are looking for very large capacity engine (like 6
litres) which and average city user does not need.

Over here (outside of USA) you  can buy 2.5 to 3.5 litre diesel engined
SUV's and Vans.
You will get at least 25mpg.  And these are 4x4 heavy duty machines.

Or you can get small capacity diesel cars (example 1.6 litre Hyundai Getz)
and you get something
like 40 miles to a gallon easily. These are real life values including city
traffic (not test values).

I have looked at the article, it mentiones that in US the refineries do not
have the capacity for the diesel production.
Well hey  maybe this is a great opportunity for bio-diesel  Start using
the vegetable oil or even better
waste vegetable oil.  You will save the environment, create jobs for local
farmers and pollute far less.
I would estimate that for  a bio-diesel plant it will take maximum 6 months
from scratch to be operational.
And you can use the local farmers produce or local restaurants WVO (and save
the pollution).
Even better if you have the talent like many in this list you can make it at
home, and save a bundle...

Article also mentions that diesel prices are soaring.  Yes this is true. I
can tell you that this is a great
tax revenue for all of the government.  I can tell you that over here there
are less taxes on biodiesel.
The government actually supports the BD production.  Therefore the BD sells
for less than normal diesel.
To save more please refer to the last sentence of the previous paragraph.

There is one more issue about commercial transportation.  We need to build
more railroads.  Trucking everything
wil not be feasible.  Again in Turkiye I believe we have the largest truck
population in Europe.  But at the end of the
day no matter how many roads you build they are always congested and the
accident rates are difficult to control.
For commercial transportation you need to build railroads and develop the
seaways.

So there is a solution for all of the claims this article makes.  It all
comes down to the personal choice of each individual.
Do we want to solve problems?  Or do we prefer to enjoy the luxury of
wasting energy?  I gues our kids will be the one
to appreciate our efforts or put the blame on us.

regards

Burak
Istanbul, Turkiye

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Weaver
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:21 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes


I read that.  Diesel will only help if combined w/ high mileage cars,
hybrid and bio.  To go to diesel so Americans can get 22 mpg in their
SUVs is pretty silly.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 


Click here: Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

   


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/07/AR200508070
0888.html
 


FYI.  No mention of biodiesel to augment supplies.



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Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

[Mike Weaver]

Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US.  It's illegal to 
sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune.

You can brew your own or as part of a coop.

-Mike


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hello;

You will get far more than 22mpg with diesel.
Unless of course you are looking for very large capacity engine (like 6
litres) which and average city user does not need.

Over here (outside of USA) you  can buy 2.5 to 3.5 litre diesel engined
SUV's and Vans.
You will get at least 25mpg.  And these are 4x4 heavy duty machines.

Or you can get small capacity diesel cars (example 1.6 litre Hyundai Getz)
and you get something
like 40 miles to a gallon easily. These are real life values including city
traffic (not test values).

I have looked at the article, it mentiones that in US the refineries do not
have the capacity for the diesel production.
Well hey  maybe this is a great opportunity for bio-diesel  Start using
the vegetable oil or even better
waste vegetable oil.  You will save the environment, create jobs for local
farmers and pollute far less.
I would estimate that for  a bio-diesel plant it will take maximum 6 months
from scratch to be operational.
And you can use the local farmers produce or local restaurants WVO (and save
the pollution).
Even better if you have the talent like many in this list you can make it at
home, and save a bundle...

Article also mentions that diesel prices are soaring.  Yes this is true. I
can tell you that this is a great
tax revenue for all of the government.  I can tell you that over here there
are less taxes on biodiesel.
The government actually supports the BD production.  Therefore the BD sells
for less than normal diesel.
To save more please refer to the last sentence of the previous paragraph.

There is one more issue about commercial transportation.  We need to build
more railroads.  Trucking everything
wil not be feasible.  Again in Turkiye I believe we have the largest truck
population in Europe.  But at the end of the
day no matter how many roads you build they are always congested and the
accident rates are difficult to control.
For commercial transportation you need to build railroads and develop the
seaways.

So there is a solution for all of the claims this article makes.  It all
comes down to the personal choice of each individual.
Do we want to solve problems?  Or do we prefer to enjoy the luxury of
wasting energy?  I gues our kids will be the one
to appreciate our efforts or put the blame on us.

regards

Burak
Istanbul, Turkiye

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Weaver
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:21 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes


I read that.  Diesel will only help if combined w/ high mileage cars,
hybrid and bio.  To go to diesel so Americans can get 22 mpg in their
SUVs is pretty silly.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 


Click here: Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

   


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/07/AR200508070
0888.html
 


FYI.  No mention of biodiesel to augment supplies.



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Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly

[Mike Weaver]

Nah, what you have is explosive soap.  It's hard to sell.  Not even Ebay 
can move it.


Appal Energy wrote:


Derick,

Still, treat a small sample with concentrated sufuric or phosphoric 
acid and observe.


Todd Swearingen


DERICK GIORCHINO wrote:


Thanks for the response. I feel that I may not have explained that there
isn't a layer it's almost a solid mass. It is about 95 deg f outside 
and if
I turn the soda bottle on its side it slides inside the bottle as one 
lump
retaining the shape of the bottom of the bottle. If I shake it hard 
it does

brake up somewhat. Kind of like when the old super ball was broken.
I feel that I now have super glop.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Appal Energy
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 5:51 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly

 


But is the jelly a typical sign of over dosing?
I have a problem with disposing of the mess I
have made if there is a way to salvage it.
  



Take a small sample and see how much concentrated sulfuric or phosphoric
acid it takes to crack the soap portion of the top jelly layer.

This is the same thing that is done with the glyc cocktail to recover 
the

free fatty acids.

Todd Swearingen




DERICK GIORCHINO wrote:

 


Hi Keith More
Thanks for you response.
I tried the world famous chop stick titration technique. Wow what a
difference in my titration  #.
I did a 1 ltr test in a soda bottle, with excellent result almost
  


instantly.
 

But here is where I got into trouble. The next batch was 20 liters I 
had some methoxide mixed from a prior batch
that was also a failure and I couldn't figure what to do with the 
toxic mix
so I tried to dilute it to 10 g.p. liter. I did my mixing of the 20 
liters.
As it cooled it turned into what looks like lard. I felt that I may 
have
overdosed it. So I then took some test bottles and put 20% failure 
oil and
75% fresh wvo set it in the sun to melt/ liquefy. (105 deg F) shook 
it hard
also a 50/50 mix in the hot state it seamed to separate better 25/75 
than
the 50/50 but as the sun went down and it cooled the 25/75 started 
to jell

and the glycerol layer vanished but the 50/50 looked much better with a
glycerol layer jelled at the bottom. I m not asking for a fix. But 
is the
jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing 
of the
mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it.   
-Original Message-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith 
Addison

Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:58 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution

Hi Derick



  

May be there is some help for me out there. I have made lots and 
lots of
test batches. Most of them bad not good. One border line. And one 
15 gal

batch with fairly good results. I have used all the options given for
titration in the J.T. Forever. Test strips work
 



... poorly, if at all, and are not recommended by JtF.



  


but after introducing it to
the mix I find if I need to add more solution the color will not 
change so
 



I


  

need to add strip after strip as I add the solution accuracy is 
probably
 



off


  

by the time I get done P.H. meter a good one I found to be about 
the same
 



pH meters work well, especially if it's a good one, you shouldn't be 
having problems.




  


and I have used phenolphthalein and get excellent response but im no
 



chemist

Very few of us are.



  

can anyone tell me how much phenolphthalein to use on the test I 
have been
using 2 drops @ 1% phenolphthalein. The instructions from J.T.F say 
use




1%
 

phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). If you can please help. Thanks 
Derick
 



You say: The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein 
solution (1.0w/v%).


The instructions at JtF say: Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution.

Dissolve 1 gm of lye in 1 litre of distilled water (0.1% w/v lye 
solution). In a smaller beaker, dissolve 1 ml of the cooled oil in 
10 ml of pure isopropyl alcohol. Warm the beaker gently by standing 
it in some hot water, stir until all the oil dissolves in the 
alcohol and turns clear. Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. 
Using a graduated syringe, add 0.1% lye solution drop by drop to the 
oil-alcohol-phenolphthalein solution, stirring all the time, until 
the solution starts to turn pink and stays that way for 10 seconds.


-- From: Biodiesel from waste oil
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo

See also:

More about lye
How much lye to use?
Basic titration
Better titration
Accurate measurements
pH meters
Phenolphthalein
pH meters vs phenolphthalein

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye

Are your scales, measuring equipment and measuring techniques up to
  


scratch?
 


Best wishes

Keith




  


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 

Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

[des]

Tom Irwin wrote:


Hi Kim,
 
Thanks for the info, I suppose there are not any bright breeds that 
will actually feed themselves. I´ve never had Muscovy ducks. Someone 
once told me they taste a little like veal. Any truth to this?
 
Tom Irwin
 


Hi!

There are wild turkeys in my locale that are quite bright, (they 
outsmart the hunters quite often, but that might not say as much about 
the turkeys as the hunters*...)  Couldn't tell you the species, but no 
doubt they're able to make it without human intervention. 

*A few years ago, a hunter brought someone's goat in to have it 
dressed, thought he'd bagged his first deer.  It was difficult for those 
who worked at the dressing station to keep a straight face until their 
customer left!  :)


It seems like there ought to be a breed or two that have a nearer 
connection to the wild variety than what usually shows up in the grocer's. 


doug swanson



--
All generalizations are false.  Including this one.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.
No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.
All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. 



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[Biofuel] methanol

[Ian Theresa Sims]

I was talking toa friend that races cars and 
he said that methanol kept for a long??time degraded and didn't work as well. Is 
this a problem for us?
As a matter of interest does biodiesel make the 
sump oil in your car go as black as dinodiesel?

Cheers Ian
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[Biofuel] Bigger production

[Jeff Brown]

Hi All.

I am new to the list and to BioFuel. I am looking 
into starting a business producing Biofuel for resale in the North East. Does 
anyone have any advice before I get to far into the research as to the 
viability. I am looking to start production rates at about 500 to 1000 gal a 
day.

Thank

Jeff
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Re: [Biofuel] Condensers

[Bert Carol Dawson]

The air cooled condensor of the back of a refrigerator from the tip works well.

Bert

Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Dear All-
 
 Does anyone out there have a creative off the shelf idea for a total
 condenser
 (methanol recovery)? I'm thinking about building an air-cooled type, but I 
 was wondering if anyone had a better solution? 
 
 Also, where are some other sources to get methanol? I have a local racing 
 fuel blender who is sympathetic, but I'm wondering if there's a stone I've 
 left un-turned. 
 
 Thanks!
 - Matt
 
 
 
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 messages):
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The huge gap between rich and poor is not only morally wrong but is also a 
source of many problems  H.H. Tenzin Gyatso.

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Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

[Joe McCarthy]

I'm driving a non turbo 1.9l diesel golf and I'm getting 47-50mpg. At  
only 65bhp it's not much fun to drive. However with Diesel costing  
(equivalent) $4.76 per US gallon in the republic of Ireland, it's  
more of a necessity.



On 9 Aug 2005, at 12:23, Mike Weaver wrote:

Not in a Hummer-sized or Expedition-sized vehicle you won't!  I  
counted over 30 that don't even get 20 mpg on EPA's website.

I have a VW Golf and get at least 43-46.
The US doesn't sell small diesels, except the Jeep, but it's so  
heavy it still get no mileage.  Isuzu was was the last carmaker to  
build a decent midsize SUV w/ a diesel - it got 30-35 or so but  
that was years ago.


The US needs (and will) get over its fascination w/ giant cars.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Hello;

You will get far more than 22mpg with diesel.
Unless of course you are looking for very large capacity engine  
(like 6

litres) which and average city user does not need.

Over here (outside of USA) you  can buy 2.5 to 3.5 litre diesel  
engined

SUV's and Vans.
You will get at least 25mpg.  And these are 4x4 heavy duty machines.

Or you can get small capacity diesel cars (example 1.6 litre  
Hyundai Getz)

and you get something
like 40 miles to a gallon easily. These are real life values  
including city

traffic (not test values).

I have looked at the article, it mentiones that in US the  
refineries do not

have the capacity for the diesel production.
Well hey  maybe this is a great opportunity for bio-diesel   
Start using

the vegetable oil or even better
waste vegetable oil.  You will save the environment, create jobs  
for local

farmers and pollute far less.
I would estimate that for  a bio-diesel plant it will take maximum  
6 months

from scratch to be operational.
And you can use the local farmers produce or local restaurants WVO  
(and save

the pollution).
Even better if you have the talent like many in this list you can  
make it at

home, and save a bundle...

Article also mentions that diesel prices are soaring.  Yes this is  
true. I

can tell you that this is a great
tax revenue for all of the government.  I can tell you that over  
here there

are less taxes on biodiesel.
The government actually supports the BD production.  Therefore the  
BD sells

for less than normal diesel.
To save more please refer to the last sentence of the previous  
paragraph.


There is one more issue about commercial transportation.  We need  
to build

more railroads.  Trucking everything
wil not be feasible.  Again in Turkiye I believe we have the  
largest truck

population in Europe.  But at the end of the
day no matter how many roads you build they are always congested  
and the

accident rates are difficult to control.
For commercial transportation you need to build railroads and  
develop the

seaways.

So there is a solution for all of the claims this article makes.   
It all

comes down to the personal choice of each individual.
Do we want to solve problems?  Or do we prefer to enjoy the luxury of
wasting energy?  I gues our kids will be the one
to appreciate our efforts or put the blame on us.

regards

Burak
Istanbul, Turkiye

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Weaver
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:21 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes


I read that.  Diesel will only help if combined w/ high mileage cars,
hybrid and bio.  To go to diesel so Americans can get 22 mpg in their
SUVs is pretty silly.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Click here: Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/07/ 
AR200508070

0888.html



FYI.  No mention of biodiesel to augment supplies.

 



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Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly

[Pieter Koole]

And what can you do with the broken soap ?
Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole

- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly


 Derick,

 Still, treat a small sample with concentrated sufuric or phosphoric acid
 and observe.

 Todd Swearingen


 DERICK GIORCHINO wrote:

 Thanks for the response. I feel that I may not have explained that there
 isn't a layer it's almost a solid mass. It is about 95 deg f outside and
if
 I turn the soda bottle on its side it slides inside the bottle as one
lump
 retaining the shape of the bottom of the bottle. If I shake it hard it
does
 brake up somewhat. Kind of like when the old super ball was broken.
 I feel that I now have super glop.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Appal Energy
 Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 5:51 PM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly
 
 
 
 But is the jelly a typical sign of over dosing?
 I have a problem with disposing of the mess I
 have made if there is a way to salvage it.
 
 
 
 Take a small sample and see how much concentrated sulfuric or phosphoric
 acid it takes to crack the soap portion of the top jelly layer.
 
 This is the same thing that is done with the glyc cocktail to recover the
 free fatty acids.
 
 Todd Swearingen
 
 
 
 
 DERICK GIORCHINO wrote:
 
 
 
 Hi Keith More
 Thanks for you response.
 I tried the world famous chop stick titration technique. Wow what a
 difference in my titration  #.
 I did a 1 ltr test in a soda bottle, with excellent result almost
 
 
 instantly.
 
 
 But here is where I got into trouble.
 The next batch was 20 liters I had some methoxide mixed from a prior
batch
 that was also a failure and I couldn't figure what to do with the toxic
mix
 so I tried to dilute it to 10 g.p. liter. I did my mixing of the 20
liters.
 As it cooled it turned into what looks like lard. I felt that I may have
 overdosed it. So I then took some test bottles and put 20% failure oil
and
 75% fresh wvo set it in the sun to melt/ liquefy. (105 deg F) shook it
hard
 also a 50/50 mix in the hot state it seamed to separate better 25/75
than
 the 50/50 but as the sun went down and it cooled the 25/75 started to
jell
 and the glycerol layer vanished but the 50/50 looked much better with a
 glycerol layer jelled at the bottom. I m not asking for a fix. But is
the
 jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing of
the
 mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
 Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:58 PM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution
 
 Hi Derick
 
 
 
 
 
 May be there is some help for me out there. I have made lots and lots
of
 test batches. Most of them bad not good. One border line. And one 15
gal
 batch with fairly good results. I have used all the options given for
 titration in the J.T. Forever. Test strips work
 
 
 
 
 ... poorly, if at all, and are not recommended by JtF.
 
 
 
 
 
 but after introducing it to
 the mix I find if I need to add more solution the color will not change
so
 
 
 
 
 I
 
 
 
 
 need to add strip after strip as I add the solution accuracy is
probably
 
 
 
 
 off
 
 
 
 
 by the time I get done P.H. meter a good one I found to be about the
same
 
 
 
 
 pH meters work well, especially if it's a good one, you shouldn't be
 having problems.
 
 
 
 
 
 and I have used phenolphthalein and get excellent response but im no
 
 
 
 
 chemist
 
 Very few of us are.
 
 
 
 
 
 can anyone tell me how much phenolphthalein to use on the test I have
been
 using 2 drops @ 1% phenolphthalein. The instructions from J.T.F say
use
 
 
 1%
 
 
 phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). If you can please help. Thanks
Derick
 
 
 
 
 You say: The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein
 solution (1.0w/v%).
 
 The instructions at JtF say: Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution.
 
 Dissolve 1 gm of lye in 1 litre of distilled water (0.1% w/v lye
 solution). In a smaller beaker, dissolve 1 ml of the cooled oil in 10
 ml of pure isopropyl alcohol. Warm the beaker gently by standing it
 in some hot water, stir until all the oil dissolves in the alcohol
 and turns clear. Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. Using a
 graduated syringe, add 0.1% lye solution drop by drop to the
 oil-alcohol-phenolphthalein solution, stirring all the time, until
 the solution starts to turn pink and stays that way for 10 seconds.
 
 -- From: Biodiesel from waste oil
 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo
 
 See also:
 
 More about lye
 How much lye to use?
 Basic titration
 Better titration
 Accurate measurements
 pH meters
 Phenolphthalein
 pH meters vs phenolphthalein
 
 

Re: [Biofuel] methanol

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hello Ian.
Answer #1: Methanol attracts water. So, 
old methanol is not anhydrous, which it has to when producing 
biodiesel.
Answer#2: Yes, but it takes a little 
longer.
Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

+ 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Ian  
  Theresa Sims 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:49 
  AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] methanol
  
  I was talking toa friend that races cars 
  and he said that methanol kept for a long??time degraded and didn't work as 
  well. Is this a problem for us?
  As a matter of interest does biodiesel make the 
  sump oil in your car go as black as dinodiesel?
  
  Cheers Ian
  
  

  ___Biofuel mailing 
  listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel 
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[Biofuel] Re: Snakes

[Doug Foskey]

Our King Brown snakes are not a friendly snake: they are territorial, and will 
attack if cornered. However, we rarely have a person in Australia die from 
snakebite. Snakes, as I have said are a protected animal. 
  I would imagine that if you are far enough away to kill a snake with a gun, 
the snake is far enough away to not be a problem. If I had to kill a snake, I 
would use a green stick, or the flat of a shovel. I have not killed a snake 
on purpose for well over 20 years. There would be 100s of snakes on my land, 
but I hardly ever see one. (But I did call the snake catcher once to remove a 
snake from the house: they capture them,  release them in the bush.)

regards Doug

On Tuesday 09 August 2005 5:58, Doug Younker wrote:
 Rattlesnakes do strike without provocation, I just don't want them around,
 but I don't go out of my way to seek them out to hunt them down.  I would
 rather the bull snakes handle the rodent population.
 Doug
 - Original Message -
 From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 8:13 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] guns

  Greetings,
 
  Rattlesnakes are not aggressive and I never kill them.  They head the

 other

  direction when they hear you coming, so why kill them?  They do kill rats
  and mice that carry disease, so the snakes are welcome unless they decide
  to become egg poachers, then unfortunately I have to kill them.  I only
  kill snakes that attack with no provocation, while you are sitting still
  and they find you.
 
  As I said, I keep the guns on my farm.  I generally carry my 380 in a
  shoulder holster, easier to work with than a shot gun.
 
  Bright Blessings,
  Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Keith,
I can't read what will not come up on my computer screen. I have tried repeatedly to bring up that site and my computer just runs and runs. Suspicious for sure but I'm merely ignorant not lazy.

Tom Irwin


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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Keith,

I tried accessing that site repeatedly and my computer just churns and churns and never gets there. I've even done the usual stuff like truncating web site name down a bit and still it just churns. This is suspicious to be sure. I may be ignorant but I'm not lazy.

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Re: [Biofuel] Condensers

[Leif Forer]

Matt~

You might consider an ethanol distiller.  Some nice ones are for sale  
at:  http://www.brewhaus.com/Distillers-and-Parts.asp


~leif

On Aug 8, 2005, at 7:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Dear All-

Does anyone out there have a creative off the shelf idea for a total  
condenser
(methanol recovery)? I'm thinking about building an air-cooled type,  
but I

was wondering if anyone had a better solution?

Also, where are some other sources to get methanol? I have a local  
racing
fuel blender who is sympathetic, but I'm wondering if there's a stone  
I've

left un-turned.

Thanks!
- Matt



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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[Tom Irwin]

Hi all,

IMHO you get together with other Heirloom farmers and sue the seed companies first for contaminating your stock of unmodifed seeds. Make it a big class action suit. Find a hardass lawyer who will persue it with righteous vengence and bring these corporations to their knees. Remember it's their genes contaminating your stocknot the other way around.

Tom Irwin



From: Guag Meister [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 05:46:26 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorismHi Keith and Doug and All ;Respectfully, you are absolutely correct that you canstill by seeds that are "heirloom". This is thepresent time. What is frightening is the directionthat the planet is headed.How long before these "heirloom" seed suppliers arebought by the agro giants? How long before some genesneaks into the "heirloom" verieties and patentinfringment money is due? What to do when twodifferent genes from two (or more!) differentcompanies are in your crop? You'll be sue'ed fromevery direction.Respectfully we all need to wake up. It will not belong (like 100 years) that ALL life forms (includinganimals) will be patented. Anyone think that thiswill guarantee "quality"?Governments need to invalidate ANY and ALL patents onlife forms. And while they are at it they should makeit illegal to sell seeds which bear sterile seeds. Best Regards,Peter G.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

[Mike Weaver]

I have a hot-rodded TDI running on BD and it screams!  I am looking at a 
better clutch because it puts out so much torque.  I got rid of my V8 
Mustang
and am glad I did.  This thing is a blast, and still gets great mileage 
w/ almost no nasty tailpipe emissions.



Joe McCarthy wrote:

I'm driving a non turbo 1.9l diesel golf and I'm getting 47-50mpg. At  
only 65bhp it's not much fun to drive. However with Diesel costing  
(equivalent) $4.76 per US gallon in the republic of Ireland, it's  
more of a necessity.



On 9 Aug 2005, at 12:23, Mike Weaver wrote:

Not in a Hummer-sized or Expedition-sized vehicle you won't!  I  
counted over 30 that don't even get 20 mpg on EPA's website.

I have a VW Golf and get at least 43-46.
The US doesn't sell small diesels, except the Jeep, but it's so  
heavy it still get no mileage.  Isuzu was was the last carmaker to  
build a decent midsize SUV w/ a diesel - it got 30-35 or so but  that 
was years ago.


The US needs (and will) get over its fascination w/ giant cars.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Hello;

You will get far more than 22mpg with diesel.
Unless of course you are looking for very large capacity engine  
(like 6

litres) which and average city user does not need.

Over here (outside of USA) you  can buy 2.5 to 3.5 litre diesel  
engined

SUV's and Vans.
You will get at least 25mpg.  And these are 4x4 heavy duty machines.

Or you can get small capacity diesel cars (example 1.6 litre  
Hyundai Getz)

and you get something
like 40 miles to a gallon easily. These are real life values  
including city

traffic (not test values).

I have looked at the article, it mentiones that in US the  
refineries do not

have the capacity for the diesel production.
Well hey  maybe this is a great opportunity for bio-diesel   
Start using

the vegetable oil or even better
waste vegetable oil.  You will save the environment, create jobs  
for local

farmers and pollute far less.
I would estimate that for  a bio-diesel plant it will take maximum  
6 months

from scratch to be operational.
And you can use the local farmers produce or local restaurants WVO  
(and save

the pollution).
Even better if you have the talent like many in this list you can  
make it at

home, and save a bundle...

Article also mentions that diesel prices are soaring.  Yes this is  
true. I

can tell you that this is a great
tax revenue for all of the government.  I can tell you that over  
here there

are less taxes on biodiesel.
The government actually supports the BD production.  Therefore the  
BD sells

for less than normal diesel.
To save more please refer to the last sentence of the previous  
paragraph.


There is one more issue about commercial transportation.  We need  
to build

more railroads.  Trucking everything
wil not be feasible.  Again in Turkiye I believe we have the  
largest truck

population in Europe.  But at the end of the
day no matter how many roads you build they are always congested  
and the

accident rates are difficult to control.
For commercial transportation you need to build railroads and  
develop the

seaways.

So there is a solution for all of the claims this article makes.   
It all

comes down to the personal choice of each individual.
Do we want to solve problems?  Or do we prefer to enjoy the luxury of
wasting energy?  I gues our kids will be the one
to appreciate our efforts or put the blame on us.

regards

Burak
Istanbul, Turkiye

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Weaver
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:21 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes


I read that.  Diesel will only help if combined w/ high mileage cars,
hybrid and bio.  To go to diesel so Americans can get 22 mpg in their
SUVs is pretty silly.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Click here: Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/07/ 
AR200508070

0888.html



FYI.  No mention of biodiesel to augment supplies.

 



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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[Mike Weaver]

I'm in.  Where do I send my check?

Tom Irwin wrote:


Hi all,
 
IMHO you get together with other Heirloom farmers and sue the seed 
companies first for contaminating your stock of unmodifed seeds. Make 
it a big class action suit. Find a hardass lawyer who will persue it 
with righteous vengence and bring these corporations to their knees. 
Remember it's their genes contaminating your stock not the other way 
around.
 
Tom Irwin
 



*From:* Guag Meister [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
*Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 05:46:26 -0300
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

Hi Keith and Doug and All ;

Respectfully, you are absolutely correct that you can
still by seeds that are heirloom. This is the
present time. What is frightening is the direction
that the planet is headed.

How long before these heirloom seed suppliers are
bought by the agro giants? How long before some gene
sneaks into the heirloom verieties and patent
infringment money is due? What to do when two
different genes from two (or more!) different
companies are in your crop? You'll be sue'ed from
every direction.

Respectfully we all need to wake up. It will not be
long (like 100 years) that ALL life forms (including
animals) will be patented. Anyone think that this
will guarantee quality?

Governments need to invalidate ANY and ALL patents on
life forms. And while they are at it they should make
it illegal to sell seeds which bear sterile seeds.

Best Regards,

Peter G.


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Re: [Biofuel] Condensers

[Joe Street]

You can make one very easily by running a peice of 1/2 inch copper pipe 
inside a peice of 3/4 inch copper pipe with reducing tee fittings on 
either end.  Just take a rat tail file and slightly file the inside of 
the reducing tee until the 1/2 inch pipe slides right through.  Make the 
1/2 inch pipe long enough so that you can slide one tee on each end and 
solder it to the 1/2 inch pipe and 3/4 inch pipe with the smaller pipe 
protruding from each end of the condenser.  The half inch pipe gets 
hooked up to your still and distillate trap and the branches coming off 
the side of the reducing tee's hook up to your cooling water.  Cooling 
water flows in the space between the 3/4 and 1/2 inch pipes.  Rather 
than use cold tap water running all the time use a small pump and fill a 
small drum with cold water.  Keep an eye on the water temperature and 
add cold or ice as needed as it warms during the distillation.  Excess 
water removed from the chilled water tank can be saved and used for 
washing your BD.  This type of condenser is cheap and easy and works well.


Joe

Leif Forer wrote:


Matt~

You might consider an ethanol distiller.  Some nice ones are for sale  
at:  http://www.brewhaus.com/Distillers-and-Parts.asp


~leif

On Aug 8, 2005, at 7:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Dear All-

Does anyone out there have a creative off the shelf idea for a total  
condenser
(methanol recovery)? I'm thinking about building an air-cooled type,  
but I

was wondering if anyone had a better solution?

Also, where are some other sources to get methanol? I have a local  
racing
fuel blender who is sympathetic, but I'm wondering if there's a 
stone  I've

left un-turned.

Thanks!
- Matt



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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[rich]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I'm in.  Where do I send my check?

Tom Irwin wrote:


Hi all,
 
IMHO you get together with other Heirloom farmers and sue the seed 
companies first for contaminating your stock of unmodifed seeds. Make 
it a big class action suit. Find a hardass lawyer who will persue it 
with righteous vengence and bring these corporations to their knees. 
Remember it's their genes contaminating your stock not the other way 
around.
 
Tom Irwin
 




*From:* Guag Meister [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
*Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 05:46:26 -0300
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

Hi Keith and Doug and All ;

Respectfully, you are absolutely correct that you can
still by seeds that are heirloom. This is the
present time. What is frightening is the direction
that the planet is headed.

How long before these heirloom seed suppliers are
bought by the agro giants? How long before some gene
sneaks into the heirloom verieties and patent
infringment money is due? What to do when two
different genes from two (or more!) different
companies are in your crop? You'll be sue'ed from
every direction.

Respectfully we all need to wake up. It will not be
long (like 100 years) that ALL life forms (including
animals) will be patented. Anyone think that this
will guarantee quality?

Governments need to invalidate ANY and ALL patents on
life forms. And while they are at it they should make
it illegal to sell seeds which bear sterile seeds.

Best Regards,

Peter G.


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Mike, you can start by buying Monsanto stock.  With enough stockholders  
submitting proxy proposals (and enough stockholders accepting them), 
that may obligate the board to put them in practice.


Richard

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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup

[Tom Irwin]

Hi All,

Just a quick note from the microbiologist running around my head. If you are using concentrated vinegar as weed killer be careful at what time of year you use it. Fall and winter is the best time. Soil bacterial love acetate ion as a source of food. Your basically adding a lot of degradable carbon to the soil. This will cause a large increase in bacteria which will tie up large amounts of nitrogen and some phosphorus making it temporarily unavailable to plants for growth. It might not just be the low pH that is killing the weeds.

Tom Irwin


From: Garth  Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:19:38 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: PANUPS: Rethinking RoundupGreetings,I buy mine at the feed store. There is a web site, but I lost it in the last crash, it will tell you the nearest retailer in the US and Canada.Bright Blessings,KimAt 06:05 AM 8/9/2005, you wrote:Where would one get it? If I try to make I always seems toget vinegar worms...Garth  Kim Travis wrote:Greetings,Yes, plain store bought vinegar doesn't kill much but the 20% vinegar that is 4 times stronger can really work well in the proper conditions.Bright Blessings,KimAt 10:35 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:Vinegar seems to work pretty good on dandelions, notmuch effect on other weeds. I use the large jug (fourliters) size from the discount grocery store, plainwhite vinegar.Joe--- Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:  Arrgg. Why did you have send that? Now I have get  rid of a gallon of  that crap. Anyone know how to render it safe before  disposal?  Also, does anyone have any ideas on using  concentrated vinegar to  control weeds?   I had no idea it was so deadly.   -MikeMichael Redler wrote:More on Roundup and Monsanto:   *Drugs war in Columbia - the true cost   *The true cost of the US's so-called "drugs war"  in Columbia (see   Environment Health News 16 p13) is mounting. There  have now been 4,000   human and 178,000 animal reported cases of serious  skin, eye,   respiratory and digestive problems due to the mass  spraying of   Monsanto's Roundup and Roundup Ultra herbicides.   [more]   http://www.ehn.clara.net/pesticides.html   *Monsanto   A brief introduction to the Monsanto Corporation*   Monsanto is a humanitarian's worst nightmare. A  company who plays   the PR game so well that many of the people who  consume their products   have never even heard of them, they were  responsible for manufacturing   Agent Orange, the extremely toxic defoliant which  the U.S. military   sprayed all over Vietnam (and consequently, also  American GI's) in the   60s and 70's. Agent Orange, which contained large  amounts of the   deadly chemical Dioxin, has now been banned  worldwide and is still   affecting the Vietnamese people two generations  later. It is also   largely believed to be the main cause for many of  the illnesses   associated with soldiers returning home from  Vietnam. From 1962 to   1970, the US military sprayed 72 million liters of  herbicides, mostly   Agent Orange, on over one million Vietnamese  civilians and over   100,000 U.S. troops. As a result, within ten years  of the close of the   war, 9,170 veterans had filed claims for  disabilities caused by Agent   Orange. The VA denied compensation to 7,709,  saying that a facial rash   was the only disease associated with exposure. In  2002, Vietnam   requested assistance in dealing with the tens of  thousands of birth   defects due to Agent Orange. In order to avoid  medical compensation   expenses, Monsanto continues to claim this now  banned chemical is not   toxic.   Monsanto's most commonly used product on the  market today is   glyphosate, or "Roundup." It is a similarly deadly  defoliant that is   used to eradicate "invasive" plants around  telephone poles, on   sidewalks and farms all over the world and most  commonly within the   US. One of the major consumers of Roundup is the  United States   military, who under the guise of the "War on  Drugs," sprays the   defoliant from helicopters in and around small  villages in the   sovereign country of Columbia in South America,  claiming to be   targeting coca plantation. Coca is the mildly  stimulating plant which   is the main ingredient in the production of  Cocaine Hydrochloride,   commonly known by Americans as "Coke" or  "Cocaine."   [more]   http://www.thehumanrevolution.org/monsanto.html */Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/*  wrote: Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:23:57 GMT   From: "Pesticide Action Network North  America"   Subject: PANUPS: Rethinking Roundup  Rethinking Roundup   August 5, 2005  A recent study of Roundup presents new  evidence that the   glyphosate-based herbicide is far more toxic  than the active   ingredient alone. The study, published in the  June 2005 issue of   Environmental Health Perspectives, reports  glyphosate toxicity to   human placental cells within hours of  exposure, at levels ten times   lower than those found in 

Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Kim,

Thanks, I'll keep looking. BTW which duck controls mosquitos in ponds, mallards or muscovies?

Tom Irwin


From: Garth  Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:16:25 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] TurkeysGreetings, There are some breeds that will actually breed and raise their own young. I haven't had turkeys for about 5 years, so I am not naming breeds since I would probably mix them up. The turkeys that have been bred to have the heavy breasts are the worst, the closer to wild you can stay, the better.I have rarely eaten veal, I refuse to eat it since the animals are so mistreated in the US. Muscovy tastes like duck to me, but I like duck. I grew up eating it and only tasted veal as an adult. What I like about the Muscovy is the number of meals it makes. Killing a mallard duck seems silly, all that work to barely feed 2 people. I sometimes keep them just to keep the mosquitos under control on my ponds. Bright Blessings,KimAt 04:55 AM 8/9/2005, you wrote:
Hi Kim, Thanks for the info, I suppose there are not any bright breeds that will actually feed themselves. I´ve never had Muscovy ducks. Someone once told me they taste a little like veal. Any truth to this?Tom Irwin



From: Garth  Kim Travis [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:54:48 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys
Greetings,
Depending on the breed, turkeys can be really stupid. They will starve to 
death standing in a pile of food. Extremely careful research is called for 
or you will be hand feeding your babies every couple of hours. It is not 
fun. Muscovy ducks are fun and taste real good.
Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 07:46 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:
Hi All,

Aside from the ongoing debate, here is a practical question. Since 
turkeys, (the edible kind) are relatively rare where I live, I thought 
they might be a more profitable bird to raise than chickens. I still plan 
on raising muscovy ducks since they seem relatively low maintenence. How 
does raising turkeys differ from raising chickens? As a larger bird are 
they more hardy? Do they eat the same feed?

Still learning,

Tom Irwin


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Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly and jellybiofuel

[Jeffrey Tan]

HI there Pannirselvam,
  Interesting to note that jelly solid ethanol has the attention of the UN. 
 Is there anywhere I can extract this literature?  Thanks.


Jeff
MALAYSIA


From: Pannirselvam  P.V [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly and jellybiofuel
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:22:32 -0300

 Hi D Giorchino

   The mess you have made can be  a new dicovery of solid biofuel .
jelly solid ethanol has good market  as  the  future biofuel for rural
areas as  identified by UN.
   Try to  acess about the possbility of mixing your mess with
ethanol jelly fuel.Thus the big problem of disposing the mess can be
an aportunity to  make business.

Fell free to have help from this list as  all here very good  experts

Yours truely
Pannirselvam P.V
Federal university ,Natal.RN
Brasil


On 8/7/05, DERICK GIORCHINO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Keith More
 Thanks for you response.
  I tried the world famous chop stick titration technique. Wow what a
 difference in my titration  #.
 I did a 1 ltr test in a soda bottle, with excellent result almost 
instantly.

 But here is where I got into trouble.
  The next batch was 20 liters I had some methoxide mixed from a prior 
batch
 that was also a failure and I couldn't figure what to do with the toxic 
mix
 so I tried to dilute it to 10 g.p. liter. I did my mixing of the 20 
liters.

 As it cooled it turned into what looks like lard. I felt that I may have
 overdosed it. So I then took some test bottles and put 20% failure oil 
and
 75% fresh wvo set it in the sun to melt/ liquefy. (105 deg F) shook it 
hard
 also a 50/50 mix in the hot state it seamed to separate better 25/75 
than
 the 50/50 but as the sun went down and it cooled the 25/75 started to 
jell

 and the glycerol layer vanished but the 50/50 looked much better with a
 glycerol layer jelled at the bottom. I m not asking for a fix. But is 
the
 jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing of 
the

 mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
 Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:58 PM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution

 Hi Derick

 May be there is some help for me out there. I have made lots and lots 
of
 test batches. Most of them bad not good. One border line. And one 15 
gal

 batch with fairly good results. I have used all the options given for
 titration in the J.T. Forever. Test strips work

 ... poorly, if at all, and are not recommended by JtF.

 but after introducing it to
 the mix I find if I need to add more solution the color will not change 
so

 I
 need to add strip after strip as I add the solution accuracy is 
probably

 off
 by the time I get done P.H. meter a good one I found to be about the 
same


 pH meters work well, especially if it's a good one, you shouldn't be
 having problems.

 and I have used phenolphthalein and get excellent response but im no
 chemist

 Very few of us are.

 can anyone tell me how much phenolphthalein to use on the test I have 
been
 using 2 drops @ 1% phenolphthalein. The instructions from J.T.F say 
use 1%
 phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). If you can please help. Thanks 
Derick


 You say: The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein
 solution (1.0w/v%).

 The instructions at JtF say: Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution.

 Dissolve 1 gm of lye in 1 litre of distilled water (0.1% w/v lye
 solution). In a smaller beaker, dissolve 1 ml of the cooled oil in 10
 ml of pure isopropyl alcohol. Warm the beaker gently by standing it
 in some hot water, stir until all the oil dissolves in the alcohol
 and turns clear. Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. Using a
 graduated syringe, add 0.1% lye solution drop by drop to the
 oil-alcohol-phenolphthalein solution, stirring all the time, until
 the solution starts to turn pink and stays that way for 10 seconds.

 -- From: Biodiesel from waste oil
 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo

 See also:

 More about lye
 How much lye to use?
 Basic titration
 Better titration
 Accurate measurements
 pH meters
 Phenolphthalein
 pH meters vs phenolphthalein

 http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye

 Are your scales, measuring equipment and measuring techniques up to 
scratch?


 Best wishes

 Keith


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Probst, 
Peter

 Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:44 AM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution
 
 Thanks to all who provided sources and altarnatives for the
 phenolphthalein! Now I can start using the 75+ gallons of WVO that's 
been

 sitting around my garage.
 Pete


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Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...

[TarynToo]

Hi Mike,
Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune? I've 
been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing 
and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or starting a 
co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South 
Florida.


Thanks, Taryn

On Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote:



Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US.  It's illegal to 
sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune.

You can brew your own or as part of a coop.

-Mike



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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[Joe Street]

Don't do this!  While the comment below may be technically correct, 
there aren't 'enough' of us to do this and buying shares only encourages 
Monsanto to keep it up.  IMHO our energies and monies are better spent 
trying to expose the lies, hidden agendas, and environmentally unsound 
practices these guys are about, and making sure as many people as 
possible become aware of the things that might make them wake up and 
begin to make informed choices themselves.  Monsanto and all thier 
shareholders can do nothing but change to survive if they eventually 
cannot find thier markets for what they currently sell.


Joe



Mike, you can start by buying Monsanto stock.  With enough 
stockholders  submitting proxy proposals (and enough stockholders 
accepting them), that may obligate the board to put them in practice.


Richard




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Re: [Biofuel] washing?

[Keith Addison]

Greetings the skapegoat

The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell 
book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even 
detrimental.


Bad book! See:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31729/

You might also note that the JtF website says why it strongly 
recommends washing, with a couple of references provided (there could 
have been plenty more):


http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#why
Washing: Why bother?

IIRC Joshua Tickell provides one obscure and outdated reference. Rudi 
Weidegger of FuelMeister fame (or infamy), who Joshua's since teamed 
up with, also recommends no washing and says it's bad for your motor, 
with no references, but then he doesn't provide a washtank in his 
exorbitant set-up.


Ho-hum.

Anyway, to believe that you'd have to believe that all the national 
standards are based on nothing. Some people do seem to believe that. 
That's their business, as long as they keep their crappy fuel to 
themselves.


I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion.  I'm 
sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel.


Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel 
instead of just washing it away?


The most convenient stage to reclaim the excess methanol would be 
immediately after the processing, when the mix is still hot. 
Unfortunately that means you reverse the very reaction you've just 
completed (hopefully completed). You have to settle and separate the 
glycerine by-product first. Most of the excess methanol is in the 
by-product; the small proportion in the biodiesel can be recovered, 
if you can find an economical way of doing it.



I know this still leaves excess hydroxides


And soaps.

that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of 
washes necessary


Doubtful.


and you might be able to save some of your methanol.


Indeed.

Best wishes

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

[Keith Addison]

Hi Keith, 

I can't read what will not come up on my computer screen. I have tried repeatedly to bring up that site and my computer just runs and runs. Suspicious for sure 

I think the suspicion is in the eye of the beholder, or perhaps his computer set-up - SourceWatch and PR Watch and the Center for Media and Democracy are excellent sources, thorough, reliable, authoritative. I haven't seen John Stauber or Sheldon Rampton get it wrong yet. To cast suspicion on an excellent anti-spin web resource because you can't raise it on your browser is ridiculous. 

but I'm merely ignorant not lazy.

You're certainly lagging far behind if you haven't twigged the Weekly Standard yet. 

Tom Irwin

Nothing wrong with it that I can see, it's always accessible. 

Somebody quoted it as a source and I told him it's an anti-source. The links at the Weekly Standard entry at Disinfopedia unearth virtually the whole web of deceit:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Weekly_Standard
Weekly Standard Magazine - SourceWatch

Or just go to:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/

Scroll down to the search box on the left and enter Weekly Standard (including quotes). 

Or go to PR Watch and do the same:

http://www.prwatch.org/search.html
PR Watch: Search Website

Or go to any number of places that expose shills and spinners and liars. Just what sort of fine upholder of the 4th estate is the Weekly Standard should hardly be news by now. 

Keith 



Hello Tom

Hi folks,

I hope everyone is reading all the attachments to articles on this topic.

I'd hoped everyone would be reading the responses, but it seems not, in your case:

Somebody quoted it as a source and I told him it's an anti-source. The links at the Weekly Standard entry at Disinfopedia unearth virtually the whole web of deceit:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Weekly_Standard
Weekly Standard Magazine - SourceWatch

http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-August/002200.html
[Biofuel] Fw: [HDR] August 06, 2005 -- date of risk?

I found the one in the Weekly Standard to be very credible.

Sorry, but I think that's hilarious! The Weekly Standard credible! ROFL

Keith


Thanks Greg and April for this information. Perhaps that´s my own personal bias. How would you attack this Chris B. and Hakan? More government propaganda?

Why Truman Dropped the Bomb
>From the August 8, 2005 issue: Sixty years after Hiroshima, we now have the secret intercepts that shaped his decision.
by Richard B. Frank
08/08/2005, Volume 010, Issue 44

Tom Irwin





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:49:37 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

doug,

*Part* of the Japanese government was trying to find a way to surrender,

you've been misinformed. this is a misrepresentation of the facts. it was
hirohito himself, quite on his own, that asked the soviets to mediate a peace.
later, the government junta voted unanimously in favor of sending an envoy to
moscow. the peace faction and the hardliners had their own reasons for
supporting the idea, but the point is that they took that action in the first place
because hirohito wanted them to.

these events transpired because the situation in japan was progressively
deteriorating. there were growing fears that total social and economic collapse,
and, therefore, most likely political collapse as well, were imminent.

furthermore, it was not the united states' intent to force a quick surrender
by using the bombs. that simply did not enter into the calculus i.e. saving
so many american or japanese lives was not the motivation for nuking japan.

>It's not clear that the U.S. population would
>have accepted just hanging around fully mobilized at war waiting for
>six months or a year until the Japanese

you're presenting kind of a worst case scenario of how a blockade strategy,
as opposed to invading, might have unfolded. besides, the disposition of the
american people is a red herring and highly speculative (another echo of the
'aussie gun control' argument). nor does it have any bearing on whether or
not bombing hiroshima and nagasaki were inhumane.

-chris b.



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Re: [Biofuel] opps, guns, sorry

[Keith Addison]

Just realized I posted with a banned subject line.  Where it had little to
do with chain letter, I should have changed the subject line to better
reflect the content.  Can only hope Keith is in an easy mood today.


:-)

No problem.


Anyway
anything with  [Biofuel] guns in the subject field is ruled to be deleted,
if I don't see it I can't break the rules.


Actually I stopped further discussion of it, whether it's in the 
subject line or not.


Best

Keith



Yes I know I should have done
that right off, but I didn't.
Doug



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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Keith,

You misinterpret my suspician. My suspician is that the site is blocked from me. I work at an embassy school and will try again at home. I don't always evaluate newspapers just individual reporters. I look for my U.S. news in British papers and my European news in certain American publications. Thanks for the new site and perspective on English newspapers.

Tom Irwin



From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:46:54 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] opps, guns, sorry

[Doug Younker]

Forgive me for being so dense lately Keith.  I took you to say the
discussion of firearm regulations was to cease and was off limits in the
future.  Do you also mean we aren't suppose to comment on our own firearm
ownership/use?  Not that I really mind if that's the case, but it's so easy
to find oneself in taboo topics when, blathering away.
Doug


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Re: [Biofuel] Condensers

[Doug Younker]

While, I'm thinking out of the salvage yard, not off the shelf, but would
Automotive A/C condensers work?  Perhaps the process would be too corrosive
to the aluminum, I don't know.  Just blurting out what came to mind, sorry.
Doug

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 6:55 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Condensers


 Dear All-

 Does anyone out there have a creative off the shelf idea for a total
condenser
 (methanol recovery)? I'm thinking about building an air-cooled type, but I
 was wondering if anyone had a better solution?

 Also, where are some other sources to get methanol? I have a local racing
 fuel blender who is sympathetic, but I'm wondering if there's a stone I've
 left un-turned.

 Thanks!
 - Matt



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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[Doug Younker]

Hi Peter,

I have to agree the future is frightening.  Corporatism is here, has
been here for quite some time, I don't see USA legislators tackling the
problem in favor of both the Ag. producer and the consumer of Ag. production
or the courts ruling in favor of the growers.   The same USA courts that
failed to protect our real-estate property against corporate seizure aren't
going to protect our crops against the ingress of GM pollen.Again I have
to ask if the Ag. producers exhibiting any concern?  I live in the middle of
Kansas and while the local newspapers give brief coverage to the subject,
there is no in-depth coverage or any editorial discussion.  I have think
heritage seed companies an oxymoron,  heritage seeds need no companies to
survive, up to the point where they become contaminated anyway. The question
is can the Ag. producer survive with the yields heritage seeds provide?  I'm
fairly certain large scale food production will be with us for quite some
time yet.  Later...
Doug, N0LKK
- Original Message - 
From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism


 Hi Keith and Doug and All ;

 Respectfully, you are absolutely correct that you can
 still by seeds that are heirloom.  This is the
 present time.  What is frightening is the direction
 that the planet is headed.

 How long before these heirloom seed suppliers are
 bought by the agro giants?  How long before some gene
 sneaks into the heirloom verieties and patent
 infringment money is due?  What to do when two
 different genes from two (or more!) different
 companies are in your crop?  You'll be sue'ed from
 every direction.

 Respectfully we all need to wake up.  It will not be
 long (like 100 years) that ALL life forms (including
 animals) will be patented.  Anyone think that this
 will guarantee quality?

 Governments need to invalidate ANY and ALL patents on
 life forms.  And while they are at it they should make
 it illegal to sell seeds which bear sterile seeds.

 Best Regards,

 Peter G.


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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[rich]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Hi Peter,

I have to agree the future is frightening.  Corporatism is here, has
been here for quite some time, I don't see USA legislators tackling the
problem in favor of both the Ag. producer and the consumer of Ag. production
or the courts ruling in favor of the growers.   The same USA courts that
failed to protect our real-estate property against corporate seizure aren't
going to protect our crops against the ingress of GM pollen.Again I have
to ask if the Ag. producers exhibiting any concern?  I live in the middle of
Kansas and while the local newspapers give brief coverage to the subject,
there is no in-depth coverage or any editorial discussion.  I have think
"heritage seed companies" an oxymoron,  heritage seeds need no companies to
survive, up to the point where they become contaminated anyway. The question
is can the Ag. producer survive with the yields heritage seeds provide?  I'm
fairly certain large scale food production will be with us for quite some
time yet.  Later...
Doug, N0LKK
- Original Message - 
From: "Guag Meister" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism


  
  
Hi Keith and Doug and All ;

Respectfully, you are absolutely correct that you can
still by seeds that are "heirloom".  This is the
present time.  What is frightening is the direction
that the planet is headed.

How long before these "heirloom" seed suppliers are
bought by the agro giants?  How long before some gene
sneaks into the "heirloom" verieties and patent
infringment money is due?  What to do when two
different genes from two (or more!) different
companies are in your crop?  You'll be sue'ed from
every direction.

Respectfully we all need to wake up.  It will not be
long (like 100 years) that ALL life forms (including
animals) will be patented.  Anyone think that this
will guarantee "quality"?

Governments need to invalidate ANY and ALL patents on
life forms.  And while they are at it they should make
it illegal to sell seeds which bear sterile seeds.

Best Regards,

Peter G.


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  messages):
  
  
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Potential solution: Maybe create a non-proprietary seed bank?


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Re: [Biofuel] Condensers

[Joe Street]

Yes an automotive radiator will work too.  In fact occasionaly people
making illegal ethanol for drinking try to use automotive radiators as
condensers.  Then you hear the story about how they get lead poisoning
from the solder used to fabricate the rad.  Even an air cooled coil of
copper can work if it is large enough.

Joe

Doug Younker wrote:

  While, I'm thinking out of the salvage yard, not off the shelf, but would
Automotive A/C condensers work?  Perhaps the process would be too corrosive
to the aluminum, I don't know.  Just blurting out what came to mind, sorry.
Doug

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 6:55 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Condensers


  
  
Dear All-

Does anyone out there have a creative off the shelf idea for a total

  
  condenser
  
  
(methanol recovery)? I'm thinking about building an air-cooled type, but I
was wondering if anyone had a better solution?

Also, where are some other sources to get methanol? I have a local racing
fuel blender who is sympathetic, but I'm wondering if there's a stone I've
left un-turned.

Thanks!
- Matt



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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[Doug Younker]

- Original Message - 
From: rich [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism
 Potential solution: Maybe create a non-proprietary seed bank?

Hi Rich-  I believe grass roots seed banks and seed exchanges already exist.
Perhaps the concerned non-gardener/producer can help the cause by purchasing
and storing a portion of the surplus of seeds each year, every year?
insuring a large viable stock in hand.
Doug


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RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...

[Ric Cuchetto]

ASTM testing is at the end of the process.  We are also struggling with
taxes and licensing and posting bond related to transporting the waste
veggie oil.  There is quite a bit of resistance to these technologies.
Truckers, renderers and petro companies do a much better job of lobbying
than the grass roots folks.  Even forward-thinking folks trying to build
methanizers or biodiesel plants find that the insurance, licensing and
certification make it difficult to justify the costs.  Let's not even start
with the transportation (fuel) taxes.

Commercialization is a big hurdle compared to dumpster diving and making
fuel for your buddies.

Regards,
 
Ric Cuchetto
Northern california

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of TarynToo
Sent: August 09, 2005 08:04
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...

Hi Mike,
Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune? I've 
been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing 
and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or starting a 
co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South 
Florida.

Thanks, Taryn

On Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote:


 Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US.  It's illegal to 
 sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune.
 You can brew your own or as part of a coop.

 -Mike


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Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

[Greg and April]

Most domesticated type turkey's are mentally challenged.

OTOH, wild type turkeys, while skinny in comparison are very intelligent,
and as a group they will make a big dent in the local snake population (
even poisonous snakes ).

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 18:54
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys


 Greetings,
 Depending on the breed, turkeys can be really stupid.  They will starve to
 death standing in a pile of food.  Extremely careful research is called
for
 or you will be hand feeding your babies every couple of hours.  It is not
 fun.  Muscovy ducks are fun and taste real good.
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 At 07:46 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:
 Hi All,
 
 Aside from the ongoing debate, here is a practical question. Since
 turkeys, (the edible kind) are relatively rare where I live, I thought
 they might be a more profitable bird to raise than chickens. I still plan
 on raising muscovy ducks since they seem relatively low maintenence. How
 does raising turkeys differ from raising chickens? As a larger bird are
 they more hardy? Do they eat the same feed?
 
 Still learning,
 
 Tom Irwin
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Condensers

[ROY Washbish]

Think about a air conditioner outside coil. The kind used with home A/C units. These things get junked all the time. I have only seen aluminum ones but if aluminum is OK then you have a good condenser.
~BEST~Roy

Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes an automotive radiator will work too. In fact occasionaly people making illegal ethanol for drinking try to use automotive radiators as condensers. Then you hear the story about how they get lead poisoning from the solder used to fabricate the rad. Even an air cooled coil of copper can work if it is large enough.JoeDoug Younker wrote:
While, I'm thinking out of the salvage yard, not off the shelf, but would
Automotive A/C condensers work?  Perhaps the process would be too corrosive
to the aluminum, I don't know.  Just blurting out what came to mind, sorry.
Doug

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 6:55 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Condensers


  
Dear All-

Does anyone out there have a creative off the shelf idea for a total
condenser
  
(methanol recovery)? I'm thinking about building an air-cooled type, but I
was wondering if anyone had a better solution?

Also, where are some other sources to get methanol? I have a local racing
fuel blender who is sympathetic, but I'm wondering if there's a stone I've
left un-turned.

Thanks!
- Matt



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Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly and jellybiofuel

[TarynToo]

Isn't jelly solid ethanol  Sterno fuel? Or is Sterno made with 
methanol?


It's hard to imagine that there's any energy advantage to jellied fuels 
over woody plants for cooking purposes, I know that many third world 
areas have extreme shortages of cooking fuels or firewood, but it seems 
like that's a distribution problem, more than a real shortage.


I know there's been a great deal of debate about the energy return of 
ethanol production here. But no matter what the numbers, it seems clear 
that when you don't need an energy dense liquid fuel for engines, the 
most efficient (and easily embraced) supply would involve fast growing 
woody plants. My impression is that burning biomass provided the best 
overall return of solar energy.


Am I missing the UN's intention here?? Or is this another boondoggle?

Taryn


On Aug 9, 2005, at 9:13 AM, Jeffrey Tan wrote:


HI there Pannirselvam,
  Interesting to note that jelly solid ethanol has the attention of 
the UN.  Is there anywhere I can extract this literature?  Thanks.


Jeff
MALAYSIA


From: Pannirselvam  P.V [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly and jellybiofuel
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:22:32 -0300

 Hi D Giorchino

   The mess you have made can be  a new dicovery of solid biofuel .
jelly solid ethanol has good market  as  the  future biofuel for rural
areas as  identified by UN.
   Try to  acess about the possbility of mixing your mess with
ethanol jelly fuel.Thus the big problem of disposing the mess can be
an aportunity to  make business.

Fell free to have help from this list as  all here very good  experts

Yours truely
Pannirselvam P.V
Federal university ,Natal.RN
Brasil





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[Biofuel] titanium

[Jeremy Farmer]

Just wondering if anyone had any input.  I have been thinking about 
Biodiesel, and I came across a mosquito trap at the hardware store that uses 
propaine run across titanium to crack the hydrocarbons down to CO2 and 
attracting mosquitos.  I was wondering if the same theory could be used to 
make biodiesel?  Does anyone have any ideas?


Thanks,

Jeremy Farmer
JBF Holdings LLC
2601 Lazy Hollow #603
Houston, Texas 77063
832-414-4217
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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Re: [Biofuel] Propane - ABio fuel?

[Greg and April]

Malcolm,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, I missed your post.

I have done some thinking and reading about the CO2 and H2S issues in
BioMethane.

If the BioMethane is bubbled through lime water, the CO2 will combine with
the Calcium in lime water, to make CaCO3 ( calcium carbonate  or  chalk
 ).This method will also take care of a little of the H2S ( see
below ).


The H2S is a little trickier, you want to remove the Sulfur, but, leave the
Hydrogen, as it would add BTU's to your final product.

This can be done a couple of ways depending on what you want as a byproduct.
The first way is to bring it in contact with lime/limestone where the Sulfur
reacts with the calcium, to form gypsum and the hydrogen goes on it's merry
way.
The second way, is to bring it into contact with iron filings, and the
sulfur reacts with the iron  to form iron pyrite ( iron sulfate ).
A problem with iron pyrite, is one of disposal.It can be used, in small
amounts to neutralize alkaline soils.The iron can also be recharged, by
exposing to air, but, that releases the sulfur into the air ( IIRC as sulfur
trioxide ), but, with a large amount exposure to the air has to be done
slowly or an exothermic reaction occurs ( for the uninformed, this means
that it might burst into flame ).


I don't have the chemistry know-how to say if you could use the chalk to
neutralize the iron sulfate, and what the results might be, but, it might be
possible.Perhaps someone else on the list knows.

I hope this helps.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: malcolm maclure [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 15:53
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Propane - ABio fuel?


 Hi Greg,  all

 It's interesting you mention:

 Bio Methane generally has to be scrubbed of CO2 and H2S, before it is
 useable in any great amount, but, once the H2S and CO2 have been removed,
 Bio Methane can be used just like NG (at lower pressure unless you use a
 compressor to raise the pressure).

 I've started gathering info on Biogas, not for where we are now but for
our
 planned future move, but I've not seen anything regarding scrubbing the
gas.
 I had wondered about the need for it. I presume the scrubbing would be
done
 using absorbent chemicals (trying really hard to remember my inorganic
 chemistry but it seems too long ago now!!! Lol) I'd like to know if there
 are any innovative solutions to the problem out there. Would water vapour
in
 the gas cause problems  should it also be removed? Or is all this not
 needed when using it as a single domestic supply?

 I'd be interested in any comments.

 Best regards to all

 Malcolm




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Harbican
 Sent: 21 July 2005 16:15
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Propane - ABio fuel?

 Not to cause a problem, but, most of the time, the fuel bought at stores
is
 Propane ( sometimes MAPP gas or even Butane ) not NG.NG requires
special
 handling procedures and compressors, that are not common except at NG
 terminals ( this is part of why NG powered cars are few and far between ).

 I worked security for several years at NG shaving operation, where they
 mixed propane with enough air, to bring it down to the same BTU values as
 NG, so it could be used in NG appliances.If they didn't do this, the
 orifice would have to be changed to one with a smaller opening.If
 propane was not mixed with air and the orifice was not one that had a
 smaller opening the pilot light in your stove or furnace would be close to
6
 inches long ( instead of half an inch or so ), and you would burn out your
 stove.

 Now, if you lower the pressure of the propane going to the appliance, you
 can achieve much the same effect.

 The whole idea, is to deliver the same amount of BTU's to the burn area
just
 outside of the orifice, over the same amount of time.

 BioMethane generally has to be scrubbed of CO2 and H2S, before it is
useable
 in any great amount, but, once the H2S and CO2 have been removed,
BioMethane
 can be used just like NG ( at lower pressure unless you use a compressor
to
 raise the pressure ).

 Greg H.


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RE: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

[Jason Schick]

I have a 2002 VW Jetta TDI which I have been running on Soy Biodiesel for
6000 miles.  It is an automatic so my mileage hasn't been as good as the
manual.  I used to get 38 mpg with dino but I only get 32 with the bio.
Does anyone have a comparison. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Weaver
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 7:06 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

I have a hot-rodded TDI running on BD and it screams!  I am looking at a 
better clutch because it puts out so much torque.  I got rid of my V8 
Mustang
and am glad I did.  This thing is a blast, and still gets great mileage 
w/ almost no nasty tailpipe emissions.


Joe McCarthy wrote:

 I'm driving a non turbo 1.9l diesel golf and I'm getting 47-50mpg. At  
 only 65bhp it's not much fun to drive. However with Diesel costing  
 (equivalent) $4.76 per US gallon in the republic of Ireland, it's  
 more of a necessity.


 On 9 Aug 2005, at 12:23, Mike Weaver wrote:

 Not in a Hummer-sized or Expedition-sized vehicle you won't!  I  
 counted over 30 that don't even get 20 mpg on EPA's website.
 I have a VW Golf and get at least 43-46.
 The US doesn't sell small diesels, except the Jeep, but it's so  
 heavy it still get no mileage.  Isuzu was was the last carmaker to  
 build a decent midsize SUV w/ a diesel - it got 30-35 or so but  that 
 was years ago.

 The US needs (and will) get over its fascination w/ giant cars.


 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Hello;

 You will get far more than 22mpg with diesel.
 Unless of course you are looking for very large capacity engine  
 (like 6
 litres) which and average city user does not need.

 Over here (outside of USA) you  can buy 2.5 to 3.5 litre diesel  
 engined
 SUV's and Vans.
 You will get at least 25mpg.  And these are 4x4 heavy duty machines.

 Or you can get small capacity diesel cars (example 1.6 litre  
 Hyundai Getz)
 and you get something
 like 40 miles to a gallon easily. These are real life values  
 including city
 traffic (not test values).

 I have looked at the article, it mentiones that in US the  
 refineries do not
 have the capacity for the diesel production.
 Well hey  maybe this is a great opportunity for bio-diesel   
 Start using
 the vegetable oil or even better
 waste vegetable oil.  You will save the environment, create jobs  
 for local
 farmers and pollute far less.
 I would estimate that for  a bio-diesel plant it will take maximum  
 6 months
 from scratch to be operational.
 And you can use the local farmers produce or local restaurants WVO  
 (and save
 the pollution).
 Even better if you have the talent like many in this list you can  
 make it at
 home, and save a bundle...

 Article also mentions that diesel prices are soaring.  Yes this is  
 true. I
 can tell you that this is a great
 tax revenue for all of the government.  I can tell you that over  
 here there
 are less taxes on biodiesel.
 The government actually supports the BD production.  Therefore the  
 BD sells
 for less than normal diesel.
 To save more please refer to the last sentence of the previous  
 paragraph.

 There is one more issue about commercial transportation.  We need  
 to build
 more railroads.  Trucking everything
 wil not be feasible.  Again in Turkiye I believe we have the  
 largest truck
 population in Europe.  But at the end of the
 day no matter how many roads you build they are always congested  
 and the
 accident rates are difficult to control.
 For commercial transportation you need to build railroads and  
 develop the
 seaways.

 So there is a solution for all of the claims this article makes.   
 It all
 comes down to the personal choice of each individual.
 Do we want to solve problems?  Or do we prefer to enjoy the luxury of
 wasting energy?  I gues our kids will be the one
 to appreciate our efforts or put the blame on us.

 regards

 Burak
 Istanbul, Turkiye

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Weaver
 Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:21 PM
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes


 I read that.  Diesel will only help if combined w/ high mileage cars,
 hybrid and bio.  To go to diesel so Americans can get 22 mpg in their
 SUVs is pretty silly.

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 Click here: Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes



 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/07/ 
 AR200508070
 0888.html


 FYI.  No mention of biodiesel to augment supplies.

  
 

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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Rich,

I can't help you there. I'm not a lawyer and I haven't bought my farm yet. I'm still doing my research on JTF.

Sorry,

Tom Irwin



From: rich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:16:24 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm in. Where do I send my check? Tom Irwin wrote: Hi all,  IMHO you get together with other Heirloom farmers and sue the seed  companies first for contaminating your stock of unmodifed seeds. Make  it a big class action suit. Find a hardass lawyer who will persue it  with righteous vengence and bring these corporations to their knees.  Remember it's their genes contaminating your stock not the other way  around.  Tom Irwin    *From:* Guag Meister [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 05:46:26 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism Hi Keith and Doug and All ; Respectfully, you are absolutely correct that you can still by seeds that are "heirloom". This is the present time. What is frightening is the direction that the planet is headed. How long before these "heirloom" seed suppliers are bought by the agro giants? How long before some gene sneaks into the "heirloom" verieties and patent infringment money is due? What to do when two different genes from two (or more!) different companies are in your crop? You'll be sue'ed from every direction. Respectfully we all need to wake up. It will not be long (like 100 years) that ALL life forms (including animals) will be patented. Anyone think that this will guarantee "quality"? Governments need to invalidate ANY and ALL patents on life forms. And while they are at it they should make it illegal to sell seeds which bear sterile seeds. Best Regards, Peter G. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","Biofuel@sustainablelists.org")>  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org  Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/    ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org  Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000  messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/  ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000  messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Mike, you can start by buying Monsanto stock. With enough stockholders submitting proxy proposals (and enough stockholders accepting them), that may obligate the board to put them in practice.Richard___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

[John Hayes]

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes


I deconstructed that Washington Post story in my blog.

http://blog.john-hayes.com/?postid=122

jh

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Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly and jellybiofuel

[Michael Redler]

There is (apparently) more than one recipe for sterno.

We had a thread going a while back that included a method: calcium acetate (egg shells and vinegar) with ethanol.

MikeTarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Isn't "jelly solid ethanol" Sterno fuel? Or is Sterno made with methanol?It's hard to imagine that there's any energy advantage to jellied fuels over woody plants for cooking purposes, I know that many third world areas have extreme shortages of cooking fuels or firewood, but it seems like that's a distribution problem, more than a real shortage.I know there's been a great deal of debate about the energy return of ethanol production here. But no matter what the numbers, it seems clear that when you don't need an energy dense liquid fuel for engines, the most efficient (and easily embraced) supply would involve fast growing woody plants. My impression is that burning biomass provided the best overall return of solar energy.Am I missing the UN's intention here?? Or is this another
 boondoggle?Taryn___
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Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

[Garth Kim Travis]

Both do well as do Peekings, which are also good to eat.
Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 10:28 AM 8/9/2005, you wrote:
Hi Kim,

Thanks, I'll keep looking. BTW which duck controls mosquitos in ponds,
mallards or muscovies?

Tom Irwin 



From: Garth  Kim Travis
[
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:16:25 -0300

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

Greetings, 

There are some breeds that will actually breed and raise their own
young. I haven't had turkeys for about 5 years, so I am not naming
breeds since I would probably mix them up. The turkeys that have
been bred to have the heavy breasts are the worst, the closer to wild you
can stay, the better.

I have rarely eaten veal, I refuse to eat it since the animals are so
mistreated in the US. Muscovy tastes like duck to me, but I like
duck. I grew up eating it and only tasted veal as an adult.
What I like about the Muscovy is the number of meals it makes.
Killing a mallard duck seems silly, all that work to barely feed 2
people. I sometimes keep them just to keep the mosquitos under
control on my ponds. 



Bright Blessings,

Kim

At 04:55 AM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

Hi Kim, 



Thanks for the info, I suppose there are not any bright breeds that
will actually feed themselves. I´ve never had Muscovy ducks. Someone once
told me they taste a little like veal. Any truth to this?



Tom Irwin




From: Garth  Kim Travis [

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:54:48 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

Greetings,
Depending on the breed, turkeys can be really stupid. They will
starve to 
death standing in a pile of food. Extremely careful research is
called for 
or you will be hand feeding your babies every couple of hours. It is
not 
fun. Muscovy ducks are fun and taste real good.
Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 07:46 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:
Hi All,

Aside from the ongoing debate, here is a practical question.
Since 
turkeys, (the edible kind) are relatively rare where I live, I
thought 
they might be a more profitable bird to raise than chickens. I
still plan 
on raising muscovy ducks since they seem relatively low
maintenence. How 
does raising turkeys differ from raising chickens? As a larger
bird are 
they more hardy? Do they eat the same feed?

Still learning,

Tom Irwin


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Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen energy efficiencies

[John Hayes]

Hi Keith.

Sorry if you took my previous long winded reply as a direct 
reply/criticism - it wasn't intended that way.


Instead, it was a broader essay I posted to my blog as as the 
culmination of thoughts that have resulted from the dialogue here, as 
well as at tdiclub.com, and in real life. (For example, the lambasting I 
refered to occurred over at TDIclub, not here. And the bit about junk 
science came up at dinner the other night.)


So while it was inspired in part by the thread here, it should really 
have been sent to the list as a new thread. I didn't mean to set up a 
strawman or put words in anyone's mouth (e.g. the Barton witchhunt 
comment). Again, sorry about that.


Anyway, did you notice the column Krugman published the very next day on 
intelligent design? That's the type of issue I was trying to speak to. 
Clearly I missed the mark. :(


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/05/opinion/05krugman.html

I don't disagree with you one bit that the corporate disinformation 
machine has been exceptionally successful at promoting their agenda. And 
yes, I agree that merely promoting good science isn't enough, 
particularly given the American media's misguided attempts to provide 
balance. But that having been said, as a scientist, I had to reaffirm 
my faith that the process does in fact work. (And yes, I use the word 
faith intentionally.) It may not work as perfectly as it should (cf 
Kuhn), but it does work imperfectly (cf Sagan).


That's what I was trying to say. If that makes me idealistic/naive, so 
be it.


jh




Keith Addison wrote:

Hello John


Keith, Bob, Andrew et al.

Respectfully, I need to disagree with Keith and go with Bob on this one.

David Pimentel may rightfully deserve scorn for his repeatedly 
releasing skewed reports long after the errors have been pointed out.


However, he should not be attacked for doing so,



I did not say he should be attacked. I said he should be questioned, and 
I provided the questions, and my previous post (which you've copied 
below) provided a link to it. Here, again:


http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg52605.html
Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel,  hydrogen energy efficien

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg52756.html
Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel,  hydrogen energy efficienc

We want to know why he does it. On whose behalf is also a good question.

That is, science is self-correcting and already has a culture to deal 
with incorrect results, be they intentional or accidental.



For every example of it that you can point to I'll point to another that 
wasn't self-corrected.


I've just been saying that seeing the government as a bumbling dolt 
might be a dangerous delusion, and failing to see the ever-swelling 
influence of corporate spending on science is similarly dangerous. 
Especially since there have been so many peer-reviewed studies of it and 
its effects (some of which have been posted here before).


Rely on science's self-correction if you want to, but in these 
circumstances I'd put about as much credence in that as in chemical 
industry self-policing of self-formulated pollution controls (ie what 
we've got now, more or less - plenty of examples of that in the archives 
too).


It's not even happening in that arena, as I said - it's not scientific 
enquiry, it's a skilful and effective publicity campaign. Would your 
scientific self-correction (albeit 20 years late with 20 years of abuse 
of the public interest in the meantime) make 100% sure, as does the 
Cornell publicity team which is at Pimentel's disposal, that it'll get 
picked up by AP and get good placement in the LA Times? If not it'll be 
useless as well as too late.



As noted by Carl Sagan, yet another iconic Cornell professor:

In science it often happens that scientists say, You know that's a 
really good argument; my position is mistaken, and then they would 
actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them 
again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, 
because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it 
happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that 
happened in politics or religion.


Frankly however, with respect to Dr. Sagan, I wouldn't hold my breath 
waiting for David Pimental to come around given his past 
intransigence. If Kuhn was right, we may have to wait another couple 
of decades for Pimental to stop publishing his misleading reports.


Still, to blindly lambaste David Pimental (and frankly, any scientist 
we disagree with) is to move the discourse from the rational to the 
emotional.



Blind lambasting, John? There've been some jeers (Yours in jest), but 
it's me you name first, apparently without checking what I'd said, which 
is neither blind nor a lambasting, nor emotional, nor has it ever been 
since I first covered this at JtF four years ago. Nor will you be able 
to find any instance of 

Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys and now ducks

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Kim,

Are the Peekings good fly eaters like the muscovies?

Tom Irwin


From: Garth  Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 16:36:02 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] TurkeysBoth do well as do Peekings, which are also good to eat.Bright Blessings,KimAt 10:28 AM 8/9/2005, you wrote:
Hi Kim,Thanks, I'll keep looking. BTW which duck controls mosquitos in ponds, mallards or muscovies?Tom Irwin 



From: Garth  Kim Travis [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:16:25 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys
Greetings, 
There are some breeds that will actually breed and raise their own young. I haven't had turkeys for about 5 years, so I am not naming breeds since I would probably mix them up. The turkeys that have been bred to have the heavy breasts are the worst, the closer to wild you can stay, the better.
I have rarely eaten veal, I refuse to eat it since the animals are so mistreated in the US. Muscovy tastes like duck to me, but I like duck. I grew up eating it and only tasted veal as an adult. What I like about the Muscovy is the number of meals it makes. Killing a mallard duck seems silly, all that work to barely feed 2 people. I sometimes keep them just to keep the mosquitos under control on my ponds. 

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 04:55 AM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

Hi Kim, 

Thanks for the info, I suppose there are not any bright breeds that will actually feed themselves. I´ve never had Muscovy ducks. Someone once told me they taste a little like veal. Any truth to this?

Tom Irwin




From: Garth  Kim Travis [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:54:48 -0300 
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys
Greetings, 
Depending on the breed, turkeys can be really stupid. They will starve to 
death standing in a pile of food. Extremely careful research is called for 
or you will be hand feeding your babies every couple of hours. It is not 
fun. Muscovy ducks are fun and taste real good. 
Bright Blessings, 
Kim 
At 07:46 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote: 
Hi All, 
 
Aside from the ongoing debate, here is a practical question. Since 
turkeys, (the edible kind) are relatively rare where I live, I thought 
they might be a more profitable bird to raise than chickens. I still plan 
on raising muscovy ducks since they seem relatively low maintenence. How 
does raising turkeys differ from raising chickens? As a larger bird are 
they more hardy? Do they eat the same feed? 
 
Still learning, 
 
Tom Irwin 
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

[Tom Irwin]

Hi all,

Thanks for the info. I really want to do turkeys but the idea of wild birds on free range seems like a lot of work. It there not a tweener turkey breed that is not real stupid but would stay withing mobile fences without escaping?

Kill the corporation,

Tom Irwin



From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:05:46 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] TurkeysMost domesticated type turkey's are mentally challenged.OTOH, wild type turkeys, while skinny in comparison are very intelligent,and as a group they will make a big dent in the local snake population (even poisonous snakes ).Greg H.- Original Message - From: "Garth  Kim Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 18:54Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys Greetings, Depending on the breed, turkeys can be really stupid. They will starve to death standing in a pile of food. Extremely careful research is calledfor or you will be hand feeding your babies every couple of hours. It is not fun. Muscovy ducks are fun and taste real good. Bright Blessings, Kim At 07:46 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote: Hi All,  Aside from the ongoing debate, here is a practical question. Since turkeys, (the edible kind) are relatively rare where I live, I thought they might be a more profitable bird to raise than chickens. I still plan on raising muscovy ducks since they seem relatively low maintenence. How does raising turkeys differ from raising chickens? As a larger bird are they more hardy? Do they eat the same feed?  Still learning,  Tom Irwin   ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org  Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...

[Tom Irwin]

Hi All,

Do I detect the big hand of government squeezing the small business owner for corporate America here?

Tom



From: Ric Cuchetto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:50:42 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...ASTM testing is at the end of the process. We are also struggling withtaxes and licensing and posting bond related to transporting the wasteveggie oil. There is quite a bit of resistance to these technologies.Truckers, renderers and petro companies do a much better job of lobbyingthan the grass roots folks. Even forward-thinking folks trying to buildmethanizers or biodiesel plants find that the insurance, licensing andcertification make it difficult to justify the costs. Let's not even startwith the transportation (fuel) taxes.Commercialization is a big hurdle compared to dumpster diving and makingfuel for your buddies.Regards,Ric CuchettoNorthern california-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of TarynTooSent: August 09, 2005 08:04To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...Hi Mike,Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune? I've been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or starting a co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South Florida.Thanks, TarynOn Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US. It's illegal to  sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune. You can brew your own or as part of a coop. -Mike___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

[Doug Younker]

What can I say, John?  Both statistics and observations are both too
malleable.  This could become perceived myth versus perceived myth, judging
others by what they drive and where we can't fully know what drove their
decision, I really don't want to go there.  Thank you for taking the time to
share your thoughts.
Doug
- Original Message - 
From: John Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes


 Doug.

 For the vast majority, SUVs are about status, not capability. Those 3 or
 4 or 5 kids will also fit in a minivan that already gets mileage in the
 20s. How do I know? My wife is one of 5 and she's the runt of the
 family; both her sisters are over 510 and her two brothers are over 63.

 Also, what proportion of American families are actually that large?
 According to US census data, in 48 of 50 states, families average less
 than two children.

 http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/tabST-F1-2000.pdf

 You can't tell me with a straight face that large families have driven
 the SUV boom in the 90s.

 Finally, don't believe the myth that American consumers were forced to
 buy SUVs by the disappearance of the station wagon. It's just not true.

 Midsized SUVs rose from 4% of all light duty vehicle sales in MY1998 to
 12.3% in 2000. Midsized station wagons droped from 1.9 to 1.4 percent in
 the same period. Large SUVs rose from 0.5% to 5.5% while large station
 wagons dropped from 0.5% to 0. SUVs are far more popular today than
 station wagons were before CAFE.

 from pg 19 http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/docs/162944_web.pdf

 jh

 Doug Younker wrote:
  Well.. I would have to think a 22 MPG SUV is a step above the 13-16 MPG
SUV
  of 25 to 30 years ago.  As long as families continue to have 3, 4 or
more
  kids, with some of them being 6 foot giants the demand, for larger
vehicles
  isn't going to subside soon.  Shoot it's going to be difficult enough to
  reduce the miles those vehicles are being driven.
  Doug, N0LKK
 
  From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 3:21 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes
 
 
 
 I read that.  Diesel will only help if combined w/ high mileage cars,
 hybrid and bio.  To go to diesel so Americans can get 22 mpg in their
 SUVs is pretty silly.
 
 
 
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 -- 
 John E Hayes, M.S.
 Instructor, Dietetics Program, DIET 203 / DIET 215
 Doctoral Student, Nutritional Sciences
 University of Connecticut - 326 Koons Hall
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] / 860.486.0007


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Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys and now ducks

[Garth Kim Travis]

Greetings,
Sorry, but I never noticed either breed eating a lot of flies, so I just
don't know.
Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 03:23 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:
Hi Kim,

Are the Peekings good fly eaters like the muscovies?

Tom Irwin



From: Garth  Kim Travis
[
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 16:36:02 -0300

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

Both do well as do Peekings, which are also good to eat.

Bright Blessings,

Kim

At 10:28 AM 8/9/2005, you wrote:

Hi Kim,



Thanks, I'll keep looking. BTW which duck controls mosquitos in
ponds, mallards or muscovies?



Tom Irwin 


From: Garth  Kim Travis [

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:16:25 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

Greetings, 

There are some breeds that will actually breed and raise their own
young. I haven't had turkeys for about 5 years, so I am not naming
breeds since I would probably mix them up. The turkeys that have
been bred to have the heavy breasts are the worst, the closer to wild you
can stay, the better.

I have rarely eaten veal, I refuse to eat it since the animals are so
mistreated in the US. Muscovy tastes like duck to me, but I like
duck. I grew up eating it and only tasted veal as an adult.
What I like about the Muscovy is the number of meals it makes.
Killing a mallard duck seems silly, all that work to barely feed 2
people. I sometimes keep them just to keep the mosquitos under
control on my ponds. 

 
Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 04:55 AM 8/9/2005, you
wrote:
Hi Kim, 

 
Thanks for the info, I suppose there are not any bright breeds that
will actually feed themselves. I´ve never had Muscovy ducks. Someone once
told me they taste a little like veal. Any truth to this?

 
Tom Irwin




From: Garth  Kim Travis [

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 21:54:48 -0300 
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys
Greetings, 
Depending on the breed, turkeys can be really stupid. They will
starve to 
death standing in a pile of food. Extremely careful research is
called for 
or you will be hand feeding your babies every couple of hours. It is
not 
fun. Muscovy ducks are fun and taste real good. 
Bright Blessings, 
Kim 
At 07:46 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote: 
Hi All, 
 
Aside from the ongoing debate, here is a practical question.
Since 
turkeys, (the edible kind) are relatively rare where I live, I
thought 
they might be a more profitable bird to raise than chickens. I
still plan 
on raising muscovy ducks since they seem relatively low
maintenence. How 
does raising turkeys differ from raising chickens? As a larger
bird are 
they more hardy? Do they eat the same feed? 
 
Still learning, 
 
Tom Irwin 
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

[Garth Kim Travis]

Greetings,
There are some breeds that are domesticated but not overbred for
production, so they still have some brains. Check with you local
hatchery, they should know the good and bad of all breeds they
carry. 
Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 03:33 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:
Hi all,

Thanks for the info. I really want to do turkeys but the idea of wild
birds on free range seems like a lot of work. It there not a tweener
turkey breed that is not real stupid but would stay withing mobile fences
without escaping?

Kill the corporation,

Tom Irwin




From: Greg and April
[
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:05:46 -0300

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

Most domesticated type turkey's are mentally challenged.

OTOH, wild type turkeys, while skinny in comparison are very
intelligent,

and as a group they will make a big dent in the local snake
population (

even poisonous snakes ).

Greg H.


- Original Message - 

From: Garth  Kim Travis 

To: 

Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 18:54

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys


 Greetings,

 Depending on the breed, turkeys can be really stupid. They will
starve to

 death standing in a pile of food. Extremely careful research is
called

for

 or you will be hand feeding your babies every couple of hours.
It is not

 fun. Muscovy ducks are fun and taste real good.

 Bright Blessings,

 Kim

 At 07:46 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote:

 Hi All,

 

 Aside from the ongoing debate, here is a practical question.
Since

 turkeys, (the edible kind) are relatively rare where I live,
I thought

 they might be a more profitable bird to raise than chickens.
I still plan

 on raising muscovy ducks since they seem relatively low
maintenence. How

 does raising turkeys differ from raising chickens? As a
larger bird are

 they more hardy? Do they eat the same feed?

 

 Still learning,

 

 Tom Irwin

 

 

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Re: [Biofuel] titanium

[bob allen]

Howdy Jeremy, short answer, no.  All the trap is doing is burning propane to 
make co2.

Jeremy Farmer wrote:
Just wondering if anyone had any input.  I have been thinking about 
Biodiesel, and I came across a mosquito trap at the hardware store that 
uses propaine run across titanium to crack the hydrocarbons down to CO2 
and attracting mosquitos.  I was wondering if the same theory could be 
used to make biodiesel?  Does anyone have any ideas?


Thanks,

Jeremy Farmer
JBF Holdings LLC
2601 Lazy Hollow #603
Houston, Texas 77063
832-414-4217
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

[John Hayes]

Hi Doug.

Frankly, I was very disappointed with your reply.

In our culture, yes, we have a right to an opinion, but others also have 
the right to tell so how and why our reasoning is flawed. And in the 
words of advisorjim (http://advisorjim.dailykos.com/) We're all 
entitled to our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts!


You implied that the need for SUVs driven by big families with big 
kids. And I rebutted it with two sources and one anecdote that suggest 
this just isn't true.


Your wishy washy statistics are too malleable statement is an 
intellectual cop out. If you're a going to make readily falsifiable 
statements on this list, you can't just wave the let's agree to 
disagree flag when those statements are challenged. That's just weak.


jh





Doug Younker wrote:

What can I say, John?  Both statistics and observations are both too
malleable.  This could become perceived myth versus perceived myth, judging
others by what they drive and where we can't fully know what drove their
decision, I really don't want to go there.  Thank you for taking the time to
share your thoughts.
Doug
- Original Message - 
From: John Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes




Doug.

For the vast majority, SUVs are about status, not capability. Those 3 or
4 or 5 kids will also fit in a minivan that already gets mileage in the
20s. How do I know? My wife is one of 5 and she's the runt of the
family; both her sisters are over 510 and her two brothers are over 63.

Also, what proportion of American families are actually that large?
According to US census data, in 48 of 50 states, families average less
than two children.

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/tabST-F1-2000.pdf

You can't tell me with a straight face that large families have driven
the SUV boom in the 90s.

Finally, don't believe the myth that American consumers were forced to
buy SUVs by the disappearance of the station wagon. It's just not true.

Midsized SUVs rose from 4% of all light duty vehicle sales in MY1998 to
12.3% in 2000. Midsized station wagons droped from 1.9 to 1.4 percent in
the same period. Large SUVs rose from 0.5% to 5.5% while large station
wagons dropped from 0.5% to 0. SUVs are far more popular today than
station wagons were before CAFE.

from pg 19 http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/docs/162944_web.pdf

jh

Doug Younker wrote:


Well.. I would have to think a 22 MPG SUV is a step above the 13-16 MPG


SUV


of 25 to 30 years ago.  As long as families continue to have 3, 4 or


more


kids, with some of them being 6 foot giants the demand, for larger


vehicles


isn't going to subside soon.  Shoot it's going to be difficult enough to
reduce the miles those vehicles are being driven.
Doug, N0LKK

From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes





I read that.  Diesel will only help if combined w/ high mileage cars,
hybrid and bio.  To go to diesel so Americans can get 22 mpg in their
SUVs is pretty silly.




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--
John E Hayes, M.S.
Instructor, Dietetics Program, DIET 203 / DIET 215
Doctoral Student, Nutritional Sciences
University of Connecticut - 326 Koons Hall
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / 860.486.0007


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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[rich]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Don't do this!  While the comment below may be technically correct, 
there aren't 'enough' of us to do this and buying shares only 
encourages Monsanto to keep it up.  IMHO our energies and monies are 
better spent trying to expose the lies, hidden agendas, and 
environmentally unsound practices these guys are about, and making 
sure as many people as possible become aware of the things that might 
make them wake up and begin to make informed choices themselves.  
Monsanto and all thier shareholders can do nothing but change to 
survive if they eventually cannot find thier markets for what they 
currently sell.


Joe



Mike, you can start by buying Monsanto stock.  With enough 
stockholders  submitting proxy proposals (and enough stockholders 
accepting them), that may obligate the board to put them in practice.


Richard




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I'm talking about getting just enough shares to be able to vote on the 
proxies.


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Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism

[rich]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  - Original Message - 
From: "rich" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Seed terrorism
  
  
Potential solution: Maybe create a non-proprietary seed bank?

  
  
Hi Rich-  I believe grass roots seed banks and seed exchanges already exist.
Perhaps the concerned non-gardener/producer can help the cause by purchasing
and storing a portion of the surplus of seeds each year, every year?
insuring a large viable stock in hand.
Doug


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Where would I find such seed banks? Any online references?


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[Biofuel] Diesel won't solve our gasoline woes

[rich]

Diesel may not be a cure-all, nothing is.  But I think it is one of the 
best shots the little guy has to regain control over his energy needs.


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Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly

[Appal Energy]

Pieter,

The broken soap is nothing more than free fatty acids, with a 
glycerol/alcohol/water/residual-acid layer beneath it and (if using 
potassium hydroxide as the original catalyst) solid fertilizer beneath that.


FFAs in their pure form are only slightly more viscous (hadly 
noticeable) than biodiesel and can be run in an indirect injection 
diesel as is or heated and run through a veg-oil converted system.


Or, you can convert them to biodiesel with acid/base processing.

Todd Swearingen

Pieter Koole wrote:


And what can you do with the broken soap ?
Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole

- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly


 


Derick,

Still, treat a small sample with concentrated sufuric or phosphoric acid
and observe.

Todd Swearingen


DERICK GIORCHINO wrote:

   


Thanks for the response. I feel that I may not have explained that there
isn't a layer it's almost a solid mass. It is about 95 deg f outside and
 


if
 


I turn the soda bottle on its side it slides inside the bottle as one
 


lump
 


retaining the shape of the bottom of the bottle. If I shake it hard it
 


does
 


brake up somewhat. Kind of like when the old super ball was broken.
I feel that I now have super glop.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Appal Energy
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 5:51 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly



 


But is the jelly a typical sign of over dosing?
I have a problem with disposing of the mess I
have made if there is a way to salvage it.


   


Take a small sample and see how much concentrated sulfuric or phosphoric
acid it takes to crack the soap portion of the top jelly layer.

This is the same thing that is done with the glyc cocktail to recover the
free fatty acids.

Todd Swearingen




DERICK GIORCHINO wrote:



 


Hi Keith More
Thanks for you response.
I tried the world famous chop stick titration technique. Wow what a
difference in my titration  #.
I did a 1 ltr test in a soda bottle, with excellent result almost


   


instantly.


 


But here is where I got into trouble.
The next batch was 20 liters I had some methoxide mixed from a prior
   


batch
 


that was also a failure and I couldn't figure what to do with the toxic
   


mix
 


so I tried to dilute it to 10 g.p. liter. I did my mixing of the 20
   


liters.
 


As it cooled it turned into what looks like lard. I felt that I may have
overdosed it. So I then took some test bottles and put 20% failure oil
   


and
 


75% fresh wvo set it in the sun to melt/ liquefy. (105 deg F) shook it
   


hard
 


also a 50/50 mix in the hot state it seamed to separate better 25/75
   


than
 


the 50/50 but as the sun went down and it cooled the 25/75 started to
   


jell
 


and the glycerol layer vanished but the 50/50 looked much better with a
glycerol layer jelled at the bottom. I m not asking for a fix. But is
   


the
 


jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing of
   


the
 


mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:58 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution

Hi Derick





   


May be there is some help for me out there. I have made lots and lots
 


of
 


test batches. Most of them bad not good. One border line. And one 15
 


gal
 


batch with fairly good results. I have used all the options given for
titration in the J.T. Forever. Test strips work




 


... poorly, if at all, and are not recommended by JtF.





   


but after introducing it to
the mix I find if I need to add more solution the color will not change
 


so
 




 


I




   


need to add strip after strip as I add the solution accuracy is
 


probably
 




 


off




   


by the time I get done P.H. meter a good one I found to be about the
 


same
 




 


pH meters work well, especially if it's a good one, you shouldn't be
having problems.





   


and I have used phenolphthalein and get excellent response but im no




 


chemist

Very few of us are.





   


can anyone tell me how much phenolphthalein to use on the test I have
 


been
 


using 2 drops @ 1% phenolphthalein. The instructions from J.T.F say
 


use
 

 


1%


 


phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). If you can please help. Thanks
 


Derick
 




 


You say: The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein
solution (1.0w/v%).

The instructions at JtF say: Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein 

Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys

[Walt Patrick]

At 01:33 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote:
Thanks for the info. I really want to do turkeys but the idea of wild 
birds on free range seems like a lot of work. It there not a tweener 
turkey breed that is not real stupid but would stay withing mobile fences 
without escaping?


We use India runner ducks to control the bug population, and are 
quite pleased with the result. Because ducks have webbed feet, they don't 
damage the garden the way chickens do.


Walt
http://www.windward.org/  



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Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes

[Bud Eble]

I thought VW only made the Golf / Jetta diesel in the TDI (Turbo) model.  Is
the model you own only sold outside of the US?

Bud

- Original Message - 
From: Joe McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes


 I'm driving a non turbo 1.9l diesel golf and I'm getting 47-50mpg. At
 only 65bhp it's not much fun to drive. However with Diesel costing
 (equivalent) $4.76 per US gallon in the republic of Ireland, it's
 more of a necessity.




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Re: [Biofuel] opps, guns, sorry

[Keith Addison]

Hello Doug


Forgive me for being so dense lately Keith.  I took you to say the
discussion of firearm regulations was to cease and was off limits in the
future.


Regulations?


Do you also mean we aren't suppose to comment on our own firearm
ownership/use?  Not that I really mind if that's the case, but it's so easy
to find oneself in taboo topics when, blathering away.


I don't think it requires any interpretation, it's straightforward 
enough. Have another look, and if you wish to discuss it further I 
suggest you do so offlist.


http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-August/002220.html

PLEASE READ - MODERATOR'S MESSAGE - was Re: [Biofuel] guns

Or:
http://snipurl.com/gu1q

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner



Doug



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Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

[Keith Addison]

Hi Keith,

You misinterpret my suspician. My suspician is that the site is 
blocked from me. I work at an embassy school and will try again at 
home.


Sounds most improbable.


I don't always evaluate newspapers just individual reporters.


It depends which newspapers, and which reporters.

I look for my U.S. news in British papers and my European news in 
certain American publications. Thanks for the new site and 
perspective on English newspapers.


English newspapers? Whatever are you talking about? They're US 
anti-spin sites, as I said. You're not making a lot of sense Mr 
Irwin, and it's getting a little tiresome.


Keith



Tom Irwin



From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:46:54 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima


Hi Keith,

I can't read what will not come up on my computer screen. I have 
tried repeatedly to bring up that site and my computer just runs 
and runs. Suspicious for sure


I think the suspicion is in the eye of the beholder, or perhaps his 
computer set-up - SourceWatch and PR Watch and the Center for Media 
and Democracy are excellent sources, thorough, reliable, 
authoritative. I haven't seen John Stauber or Sheldon Rampton get it 
wrong yet. To cast suspicion on an excellent anti-spin web resource 
because you can't raise it on your browser is ridiculous.



but I'm merely ignorant not lazy.


You're certainly lagging far behind if you haven't twigged the 
Weekly Standard yet.



Tom Irwin


Nothing wrong with it that I can see, it's always accessible.

Somebody quoted it as a source and I told him it's an anti-source. 
The links at the Weekly Standard entry at Disinfopedia unearth 
virtually the whole web of deceit:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Weekly_Standard
Weekly Standard Magazine - SourceWatch


Or just go to:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/

Scroll down to the search box on the left and enter Weekly 
Standard (including quotes).


Or go to PR Watch and do the same:

http://www.prwatch.org/search.html
PR Watch: Search Website

Or go to any number of places that expose shills and spinners and 
liars. Just what sort of fine upholder of the 4th estate is the 
Weekly Standard should hardly be news by now.


Keith




Hello Tom


Hi folks,

I hope everyone is reading all the attachments to articles on this topic.


I'd hoped everyone would be reading the responses, but it seems 
not, in your case:


Somebody quoted it as a source and I told him it's an 
anti-source. The links at the Weekly Standard entry at 
Disinfopedia unearth virtually the whole web of deceit:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Weekly_Standard
Weekly Standard Magazine - SourceWatch


http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/ 
200 5-August/002200.html

[Biofuel] Fw: [HDR] August 06, 2005 -- date of risk?


I found the one in the Weekly Standard to be very credible.


Sorry, but I think that's hilarious! The Weekly Standard credible! ROFL

Keith


Thanks Greg and April for this information. Perhaps that´s my own 
personal bias. How would you attack this Chris B. and Hakan? More 
government propaganda?


Why Truman Dropped the Bomb
From the August 8, 2005 issue: Sixty years after Hiroshima, we 
now have the secret intercepts that shaped his decision.

by Richard B. Frank
08/08/2005, Volume 010, Issue 44

Tom Irwin





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 19:49:37 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima

doug,

*Part* of the Japanese government was trying to find a way to surrender,

you've been misinformed. this is a misrepresentation of the facts. it was
hirohito himself, quite on his own, that asked the soviets to 
mediate a peace.
later, the government junta voted unanimously in favor of sending 
an envoy to

moscow. the peace faction and the hardliners had their own reasons for
supporting the idea, but the point is that they took that action 
in the first place

because hirohito wanted them to.

these events transpired because the situation in japan was progressively
deteriorating. there were growing fears that total social and 
economic collapse,

and, therefore, most likely political collapse as well, were imminent.

furthermore, it was not the united states' intent to force a 
quick surrender

by using the bombs. that simply did not enter into the calculus i.e. saving
so many american or japanese lives was not the motivation for nuking japan.

It's not clear that the U.S. population would
have accepted just hanging around fully mobilized at war waiting for
six months or a year until the Japanese

you're presenting kind of a worst case scenario of how a blockade strategy,
as opposed to invading, might have unfolded. besides, the 
disposition of the
american people is a red herring and highly speculative (another 
echo of the

'aussie gun control' argument). nor does it have any bearing on whether or
not bombing 

Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...

[Appal Energy]

Not necessarily.

More like the big hand(s) of soybean interest(s) manipulating a set of 
controls to as best as possible guarantee that they get their 
research, testing and investment monies back. Forget that the monies 
they used are from a per bushel tax on beans, designated for use to 
advance the production and consumption of soy, which biodiesel does.


What they want is the tax money to operate off of and then after they 
spend it they want it replenished.


The government just went along in the processing of incorporating 
biodiesel as an EPA registered fuel.


Then again, on the other hand, the soybean interests could have kept the 
Tier I  II health effects studies for their use only as well as 
applicable only to soybean oil. But that's not how it ended up, as fuel 
from all oil and fat feedstocks fall under the rubric of biodiesel.


One could say that the EPA lobbied to keep the gate open a little wider 
than strictly soy, which in turn served the public's interest rather 
than specifically the special interest.


Nobody is talking.

Todd Swearingen


Tom Irwin wrote:


Hi All,
 
Do I detect the big hand of government squeezing the small business 
owner for corporate America here?
 
Tom
 



*From:* Ric Cuchetto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
*Sent:* Tue, 09 Aug 2005 12:50:42 -0300
*Subject:* RE: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...

ASTM testing is at the end of the process. We are also struggling with
taxes and licensing and posting bond related to transporting the waste
veggie oil. There is quite a bit of resistance to these technologies.
Truckers, renderers and petro companies do a much better job of
lobbying
than the grass roots folks. Even forward-thinking folks trying to
build
methanizers or biodiesel plants find that the insurance, licensing and
certification make it difficult to justify the costs. Let's not
even start
with the transportation (fuel) taxes.

Commercialization is a big hurdle compared to dumpster diving and
making
fuel for your buddies.

Regards,

Ric Cuchetto
Northern california

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])]
On Behalf Of TarynToo
Sent: August 09, 2005 08:04
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org)
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...

Hi Mike,
Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune?
I've
been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing
and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or
starting a
co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South
Florida.

Thanks, Taryn

On Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote:


 Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US. It's illegal to
 sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune.
 You can brew your own or as part of a coop.

 -Mike


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Re: [Biofuel] titanium

[francisco j burgos]

Dear Mr. Farmer:
seems a good idea. Keep searching, wish you good luck.
F.J. Burgos

- Original Message - 
From: Jeremy Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:45 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] titanium


Just wondering if anyone had any input.  I have been thinking about 
Biodiesel, and I came across a mosquito trap at the hardware store that 
uses propaine run across titanium to crack the hydrocarbons down to CO2 
and attracting mosquitos.  I was wondering if the same theory could be 
used to make biodiesel?  Does anyone have any ideas?


Thanks,

Jeremy Farmer
JBF Holdings LLC
2601 Lazy Hollow #603
Houston, Texas 77063
832-414-4217
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Biofuel] titanium

[ings . group]

Hi There:

The following US patent offers making biodiesel by adding 15% MeOH
and running the mix at 85degC past very high DC electrode to get
100% conversion - no glycerine, it is converted to 1,2,3-proprionate.
The only other byproduct is hydrogen.  Very cool, just a little
scary.

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=1f=Gl=50co1=ANDd=PG01s1=biodeiselOS=biodeiselRS=biodeisel

http://tinyurl.com/8hjv7

Ray

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:10:14 -0400, francisco j burgos  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Dear Mr. Farmer:
seems a good idea. Keep searching, wish you good luck.
F.J. Burgos

- Original Message - From: Jeremy Farmer  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:45 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] titanium


Just wondering if anyone had any input.  I have been thinking about  
Biodiesel, and I came across a mosquito trap at the hardware store that  
uses propaine run across titanium to crack the hydrocarbons down to CO2  
and attracting mosquitos.  I was wondering if the same theory could be  
used to make biodiesel?  Does anyone have any ideas?


Thanks,

Jeremy Farmer
JBF Holdings LLC
2601 Lazy Hollow #603
Houston, Texas 77063
832-414-4217
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--
Ray or Shiraz Ings
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

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[Biofuel] Distillation information

[des]

While researching online re: methanol recovery, and the current thread 
on ethanol, I found what seems to be a great site on everything one 
would want to know about the distillation process.


It's at:
http://lorien.ncl.ac.uk/ming/distil/distil0.htm

I've only gotten part of the way through all the info there, but thought 
the info would be good to share.


doug swanson


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RE: [Biofuel] RE: jelly and jellybiofuel

[DERICK GIORCHINO]

Hi Pannirselvam it would be better if it could remain in that stat when it gets 
hot could be messy if it were in a back pack and melted.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Tan
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:13 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly and jellybiofuel

HI there Pannirselvam,
   Interesting to note that jelly solid ethanol has the attention of the UN. 
  Is there anywhere I can extract this literature?  Thanks.

Jeff
MALAYSIA

From: Pannirselvam  P.V [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly and jellybiofuel
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:22:32 -0300

  Hi D Giorchino

The mess you have made can be  a new dicovery of solid biofuel .
jelly solid ethanol has good market  as  the  future biofuel for rural
areas as  identified by UN.
Try to  acess about the possbility of mixing your mess with
ethanol jelly fuel.Thus the big problem of disposing the mess can be
an aportunity to  make business.

Fell free to have help from this list as  all here very good  experts

Yours truely
Pannirselvam P.V
Federal university ,Natal.RN
Brasil


On 8/7/05, DERICK GIORCHINO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi Keith More
  Thanks for you response.
   I tried the world famous chop stick titration technique. Wow what a
  difference in my titration  #.
  I did a 1 ltr test in a soda bottle, with excellent result almost 
instantly.
  But here is where I got into trouble.
   The next batch was 20 liters I had some methoxide mixed from a prior 
batch
  that was also a failure and I couldn't figure what to do with the toxic 
mix
  so I tried to dilute it to 10 g.p. liter. I did my mixing of the 20 
liters.
  As it cooled it turned into what looks like lard. I felt that I may have
  overdosed it. So I then took some test bottles and put 20% failure oil 
and
  75% fresh wvo set it in the sun to melt/ liquefy. (105 deg F) shook it 
hard
  also a 50/50 mix in the hot state it seamed to separate better 25/75 
than
  the 50/50 but as the sun went down and it cooled the 25/75 started to 
jell
  and the glycerol layer vanished but the 50/50 looked much better with a
  glycerol layer jelled at the bottom. I m not asking for a fix. But is 
the
  jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing of 
the
  mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it.
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
  Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:58 PM
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Subject: RE: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution
 
  Hi Derick
 
  May be there is some help for me out there. I have made lots and lots 
of
  test batches. Most of them bad not good. One border line. And one 15 
gal
  batch with fairly good results. I have used all the options given for
  titration in the J.T. Forever. Test strips work
 
  ... poorly, if at all, and are not recommended by JtF.
 
  but after introducing it to
  the mix I find if I need to add more solution the color will not change 
so
  I
  need to add strip after strip as I add the solution accuracy is 
probably
  off
  by the time I get done P.H. meter a good one I found to be about the 
same
 
  pH meters work well, especially if it's a good one, you shouldn't be
  having problems.
 
  and I have used phenolphthalein and get excellent response but im no
  chemist
 
  Very few of us are.
 
  can anyone tell me how much phenolphthalein to use on the test I have 
been
  using 2 drops @ 1% phenolphthalein. The instructions from J.T.F say 
use 1%
  phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). If you can please help. Thanks 
Derick
 
  You say: The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein
  solution (1.0w/v%).
 
  The instructions at JtF say: Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution.
 
  Dissolve 1 gm of lye in 1 litre of distilled water (0.1% w/v lye
  solution). In a smaller beaker, dissolve 1 ml of the cooled oil in 10
  ml of pure isopropyl alcohol. Warm the beaker gently by standing it
  in some hot water, stir until all the oil dissolves in the alcohol
  and turns clear. Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. Using a
  graduated syringe, add 0.1% lye solution drop by drop to the
  oil-alcohol-phenolphthalein solution, stirring all the time, until
  the solution starts to turn pink and stays that way for 10 seconds.
 
  -- From: Biodiesel from waste oil
  http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo
 
  See also:
 
  More about lye
  How much lye to use?
  Basic titration
  Better titration
  Accurate measurements
  pH meters
  Phenolphthalein
  pH meters vs phenolphthalein
 
  http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye
 
  Are your scales, measuring equipment and measuring techniques up to 
scratch?
 
  Best wishes
 
  Keith
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Re: [Biofuel] methanol

[Ian Theresa Sims]

Thanks Jan
But is that a yes or a no on question 
1

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Jan Warnqvist 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 12:20 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol
  
  Hello Ian.
  Answer #1: Methanol attracts water. So, 
  old methanol is not anhydrous, which it has to when producing 
  biodiesel.
  Answer#2: Yes, but it takes a little 
  longer.
  Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  + 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Ian 
 Theresa Sims 
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 

Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:49 
AM
Subject: [Biofuel] methanol

I was talking toa friend that races cars 
and he said that methanol kept for a long??time degraded and didn't work as 
well. Is this a problem for us?
As a matter of interest does biodiesel make the 
sump oil in your car go as black as dinodiesel?

Cheers Ian



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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from wood using mushrooms

[Ken Gotberg]

I’ll combine my answers.

Bob

Yes, you need a cellulase to extract glucose and there are many with those from Trichoderma reesei being the most common and most studied with the genome known (?). The glucose has many uses with ethanol being just one of them losing ~ half of the starting material as CO2. Others like citric acid don’t lose material except that used for cell growth.

I should mention the dilute and concentrated acid methods are also viable options, but I prefer the biological route for use in the third world. The EERE site has a lot of info about this and worth a look for those interested. 

There are a few plants actually in production making glucose whose names and locations I’ve forgotten -names like ADM, Cargil in places like Canada come to mind. .

With high fuel prices, the old technologies and some new ones may become viable again like during the first OPEC embargo circa 1970. 



Tom

The thesis (I think it is a thesis) is:

Pauliina Lankinen, “Liginolytic enzymes of the basidiomycetous fungi Agaricus bisporus and Phlebia radiata on lignocellulose-containing media”, Helsinki 2004

http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/maa/skemi/vk/lankinen/ligninol.pdf

There is a lot of research going on in Finland and Sweden because of he economic importance of forests in these countries.

=
Greg
MoS2 catalysis is another old idea with patents held by Dow and a new one held by a small company. This is modified Fisher-Tropsch idea with first making syngas (H2 + CO) in various propitiations and the catalysis recombines as alcohols rather than hydrocarbons as is the case in the full-blown F-T. No addition of H2 is necessary. This also isn’t poisoned by sulphur because sulphur is part of the catalysis.
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